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post #31 of 86 Old 02-14-2019, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Thanks a lot, I am actually super psyched to be able to put them in a nice deep room behind a screen hopefull in the next year or two. That, and build the 3rd one for my Center to be identical.

Going fully active was definitely the best thing I did.
I'm fascinated about going fully active on a design like that. Is it fairly easy then to determine crossover points and just measure to get the final result? Is there anything besides FR that has to be considered? phase? polarity? directivity?

Is it dramatically easier than building a passive network?

There always seem to be a lot of variables discussed in the design process that I'm not sure I fully understand how to optimize...

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post #32 of 86 Old 02-14-2019, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post
I'm fascinated about going fully active on a design like that. Is it fairly easy then to determine crossover points and just measure to get the final result? Is there anything besides FR that has to be considered? phase? polarity? directivity?

Is it dramatically easier than building a passive network?

There always seem to be a lot of variables discussed in the design process that I'm not sure I fully understand how to optimize...
LOTS of factors. Still have to measure each driver etc etc..
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post #33 of 86 Old 02-14-2019, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post
I'm fascinated about going fully active on a design like that. Is it fairly easy then to determine crossover points and just measure to get the final result? Is there anything besides FR that has to be considered? phase? polarity? directivity?

Is it dramatically easier than building a passive network?

There always seem to be a lot of variables discussed in the design process that I'm not sure I fully understand how to optimize...
Yes.. FR, Phase, directivity, output level, time delay, etc need to match through the xover region.

The process to do it right is still pretty much the same, you're just building filters in software instead of electronically. This bit can speed things up significantly.

Using FIR filtering can make things a little easier, as you can have flat phase response in the xover band.
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post #34 of 86 Old 02-15-2019, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
center xover with smaller waveguide @ 800hz
What does it look like without FIR correction though?

Is that nearfield or time gated farfield?
i.e. How in the world are you getting that flat at 10-20ft back... assuming you are including the wall/ceiling/floor reflections;
or is that big room of yours causing mostly direct-only sound or what here?
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post #35 of 86 Old 02-15-2019, 07:40 AM
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Subscribed to this thread. I’ve been getting into main design too now that my theater is done and I’m looking to build out a 2 channel hifi music space. I know there are some great designs already out there but dang I want high efficiency because I love the dynamics of my HTM12s.

I’ve been eyeing the same tweeter as OP and debating if I want to go 2-way vs 3-way. I think 2way is harder with this tweeter given the crossover restrictions (though I have seen 1-2 designs with crossovers in the 900-1200hz range). So still going through woofer research. Plenty of time since it’s still too dang cold out in my Unheated garage to build and measure new boxes. So I have a few weeks .

@notnyt I’m mostly with you in that I love the ability to cross CDs with Seos waveguides down lower than the tpl150. I also love how the CDs in the HTM line sound. But I’m curious on ribbon/amt and so figured why not try it it for a pair of Stereo speakers. I’m on the same island as you so if I do go forward with the tpl150h, maybe we can do a comparison of yours vs these somewhere down the line. Might be a few months though as I am still learning about speaker and crossover design.

OP, I’m in for your ride with this tweeter so keep this thread updated please!
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post #36 of 86 Old 02-15-2019, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
What does it look like without FIR correction though?
Not sure what you mean, they're fully active speakers, so all crossover, shaping, and room correction is done with FIR filtering...

Without the filtering the raw components look like this, windowed and averaged around the listening position



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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Is that nearfield or time gated farfield?
i.e. How in the world are you getting that flat at 10-20ft back... assuming you are including the wall/ceiling/floor reflections;
or is that big room of yours causing mostly direct-only sound or what here?
What you quoted is the supposed output after building the filters. It measures about that in room though, as you can see in the spatially averaged graph I posted above. I just posted those so you could see the crossover curves.

The large room, controlled directivity speakers, and the treated reflection points go a long way into having a nice response at the listening position, though.

T30


Impulse ETC


(and before ceiling treatments, you can see how that reflection, though minor, shows at 3 and 4 ms)

Yellow is the close mic measurement (2ft) of only the HF section with 1/20 octave frequency dependent window. Red is a vector average of 4 measurements taken with the mic placed in front of the couch pointed directly at the speaker with 1/12 octave fdw. Green is a vector average of 4 measurements taken over the couch, mic pointed straight up essentially in positions your head would be, with the same windowing. Calibration files specific to the mic orientation were used. Distance at the listening position is about 4 meters (13-14ft). On the yellow nearfield trace, you can see the rolloff from the xover at 800hz on the left side and the attenuation (or lack of) of the HF frequencies over distance on the right side. Otherwise, they overlay nicely.


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post #37 of 86 Old 02-15-2019, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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OP, I’m in for your ride with this tweeter so keep this thread updated please!

Not sure I'm going to go with this. I just wanted a good 2 way "large " book shelf that was going to be good for 2 channel stereo. It kinda went off topic. Some say it will work some say it wont. I don't want to dedicate a subwoofer to this. I have one but id rather just use my 2 class a amplifiers and 2 speakers and try to get max bass from it. Kinda why i picked the Satori 9.5" it's close to a 10" and fits the budget & box size i was willing to use.
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post #38 of 86 Old 02-15-2019, 02:33 PM
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Subscribed to this thread. I’ve been getting into main design too now that my theater is done and I’m looking to build out a 2 channel hifi music space. I know there are some great designs already out there but dang I want high efficiency because I love the dynamics of my HTM12s.

I’ve been eyeing the same tweeter as OP and debating if I want to go 2-way vs 3-way. I think 2way is harder with this tweeter given the crossover restrictions (though I have seen 1-2 designs with crossovers in the 900-1200hz range). So still going through woofer research. Plenty of time since it’s still too dang cold out in my Unheated garage to build and measure new boxes. So I have a few weeks .

@notnyt I’m mostly with you in that I love the ability to cross CDs with Seos waveguides down lower than the tpl150. I also love how the CDs in the HTM line sound. But I’m curious on ribbon/amt and so figured why not try it it for a pair of Stereo speakers. I’m on the same island as you so if I do go forward with the tpl150h, maybe we can do a comparison of yours vs these somewhere down the line. Might be a few months though as I am still learning about speaker and crossover design.

OP, I’m in for your ride with this tweeter so keep this thread updated please!
I'd say 1200 is the low end for the tpl150h. It loses pattern control rapidly below there.

IMO Build a 2-way with 2453H-SL CD on STX825 waveguide. It blows away any of the CD/WG combos in the DIYSG line. It can pair well with 12s or 15s. See link in my sig for 15" 2-way build. An MTM would be ideal to help match vertical directivity better if you can manage the space/budget.
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post #39 of 86 Old 02-15-2019, 10:38 PM
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I'd say 1200 is the low end for the tpl150h. It loses pattern control rapidly below there.
Indeed, and by doing active, I can pretty safely use it with 36-48db/octave crossover and it sounds amazing.

Something I am loving about active is just how well you can get the drivers looking with some filters before you even start messing with crossover shapes etc.

Its true you do still have to go through the whole crossover process in about the same way as Passive, but obviously the results at the end are far better. I will probably always do it for any mains, for smaller rears etc, probably not.

This is just what the drivers looked like after putting some PEQ correction before messing with the rest of it. Based on original outdoors measurements. There is a separate bank of PEQ I use for in room correction.





I should look in to FIR. I just did mine with PEQ. But I didnt like what I was reading with regards to the pre-ringing with linear phase.

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post #40 of 86 Old 02-15-2019, 11:00 PM
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I should look in to FIR. I just did mine with PEQ. But I didnt like what I was reading with regards to the pre-ringing with linear phase.
Eh, depends on your filters and hardware you're using. I'm not experiencing this issue, but I'm using 16k taps per channel with 1024 delay. That said, if you can match phase without issues at your xover points, there isn't a huge benefit to going FIR. I still want to test this comparing minimum phase to linear phase at some point, but I still haven't found the time.

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post #41 of 86 Old 02-15-2019, 11:56 PM
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Eh, depends on your filters and hardware you're using. I'm not experiencing this issue, but I'm using 16k taps per channel with 1024 delay. That said, if you can match phase without issues at your xover points, there isn't a huge benefit to going FIR. I still want to test this comparing minimum phase to linear phase at some point, but I still haven't found the time.



What are you using to do all your processing? That is a lot of taps!

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post #42 of 86 Old 02-16-2019, 12:06 AM
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What are you using to do all your processing? That is a lot of taps!
A very tiny fairly powerful pc running brutefir with usb audio interfaces

The audio interfaces being an RME UFX+ with a MOTU 8a connected to it via adat for extra io. The UFX+ is pricey, but it works with linux in class compat mode very nicely. They came out with a cheaper version shortly after, the UFX II which is pretty much the same thing with some features like Dante removed. I think the MOTU might work as well in linux, but it did not play nice with my hypex nc400s.

That impulse response was from in room measurements btw, not electrical.

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post #43 of 86 Old 02-16-2019, 05:27 AM
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with a ribbon like the beyma, lets say it was crossed over at around 1200hz, is it then possible to cross it over with a midrange driver that can get us down to about 60-80hz?

What about the 10000hz+ range? Is the natural rolloff good or is it better to have yet another tweeter for that range?

I have limited understanding of speaker design/philosophy and its hard for me to decide how much time as a hobby to spend on figuring it all out. I know I will enjoy the process, but not sure if it is all "worth it" for one pair of speakers. If I go that route to build a pair, I really would like them to function really well .

I feel like a simple project with perhaps a single midrange driver and a single ribbon might be a good speaker design to try. I do have a table saw now but I don't have anything to cut circles well into wood. I can make a crappy jigsawcut and surface mount the speaker I suppose.

A passive crossover might make a small speaker a lot more versatile to use than to have a multichannel amp for each?

I see comparisons for the RAAL vs BEYMA tweeters. besides the higher price on RAAL, what is your impressions between these two and pro/cons from a speaker design perspective.

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post #44 of 86 Old 02-16-2019, 07:28 AM
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Without the filtering the raw components look like this, windowed and averaged around the listening position

The large room, controlled directivity speakers, and the treated reflection points go a long way into having a nice response at the listening position, though.
Those are almost flawless FR charts, you must be happy with the sound at this point.
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post #45 of 86 Old 02-16-2019, 08:08 AM
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I'd say 1200 is the low end for the tpl150h. It loses pattern control rapidly below there.

IMO Build a 2-way with 2453H-SL CD on STX825 waveguide. It blows away any of the CD/WG combos in the DIYSG line. It can pair well with 12s or 15s. See link in my sig for 15" 2-way build. An MTM would be ideal to help match vertical directivity better if you can manage the space/budget.
Your builds are awesome I’ve checked them out . I’m not sure I want a 15” woofer because I’m still ‘negotiating’ where in the house I can set up a two channel space. If I do it somewhere not fully dedicated, boxes that fit 15” woofers gonna be tough. Even 12” is pushing it. Also, I really want to hear what a good tweeter/amt can do just for my own education, so am torn (I’m also curious if I can build something for 1-2k per pair that beats 30k ‘hifi two channel’ speakers). Even if that means building a 3 way so I can cross the tweeter higher up. I wouldn’t mind a nice 3 way tower for two channel listening to be honest but also want a 2 way for smaller spaces.
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post #46 of 86 Old 02-16-2019, 09:18 AM
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I know this might be a long shot but I do see that lots of people on here have used these Beyma TPL-150's. Does anyone have any measurement files to share with ? I'm "thinking" about buying a pair and building a pair of speakers with them. Id be using the Satori WO24P-8 9.5" woofer in a 2 way..
.
I think you mentioned that you already got the Satori which looks fine but I thought I'd chime in about the TD10M from AE. I use it with a Seos 10 /Radian beryllium compression driver on a smaller system. I ran it 70hz up to 1400hz. The TD10m is 97db as a 4 ohm and doesn't have the odd top end. I have the apollo version but without it, the TD10M is around $349.

The TPL150, TD10M has been used already with a huge amount of data available on the build:

Arcus from vapor audio
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post #47 of 86 Old 02-16-2019, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I think you mentioned that you already got the Satori which looks fine but I thought I'd chime in about the TD10M from AE. I use it with a Seos 10 /Radian beryllium compression driver on a smaller system. I ran it 70hz up to 1400hz. The TD10m is 97db as a 4 ohm and doesn't have the odd top end. I have the apollo version but without it, the TD10M is around $349.

The TPL150, TD10M has been used already with a huge amount of data available on the build:

Arcus from vapor audio
Yeah i was looking at that, the white pictures is what got me interested in thinking about this project. Most of said on here that it would not be that good of a system.. I don't have any drivers bought yet. I have a budget of 2000$ CND to build a pair of speakers.. FOR 2 channel stereo listening..

Currently listing to a pair of my latest speakers. Sbacoustics 5" with a Peerless Tweeter with waveguide. I think Jav mentioned that the directivity on the 150 was really narrow. I one thing i hated about Fullrange speakers if you move your head slightly when listening to them you loose the "image / Hi-Frequency. They are very beamy and IMO lame..
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Yeah i was looking at that, the white pictures is what got me interested in thinking about this project. Most of said on here that it would not be that good of a system.. I don't have any drivers bought yet. I have a budget of 2000$ CND to build a pair of speakers.. FOR 2 channel stereo listening..

Currently listing to a pair of my latest speakers. Sbacoustics 5" with a Peerless Tweeter with waveguide. I think Jav mentioned that the directivity on the 150 was really narrow. I one thing i hated about Fullrange speakers if you move your head slightly when listening to them you loose the "image / Hi-Frequency. They are very beamy and IMO lame..
It’s ‘narrow’ in terms of vertical dispersion but I think what Javs was saying was that at reasonable distance from the speaker you easily fall within the directivity/dispersion window unless you stand up.
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post #49 of 86 Old 02-16-2019, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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It’s ‘narrow’ in terms of vertical dispersion but I think what Javs was saying was that at reasonable distance from the speaker you easily fall within the directivity/dispersion window unless you stand up.
My bad maybe i miss understood him. If i were to build these i wouldn't care about what it sounded like standing up. Id be building them to be listened to sitting down. The stands would be build to perfect height for ear level ( or in that range for directive listening )
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post #50 of 86 Old 02-16-2019, 10:43 AM
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My bad maybe i miss understood him. If i were to build these i wouldn't care about what it sounded like standing up. Id be building them to be listened to sitting down. The stands would be build to perfect height for ear level ( or in that range for directive listening )
Agreed. I would too if I went with that tweeter. I think Javs is extremely happy with his choice though he uses these speakers for home theater rather than 2 channel. But I, like you, am considering options for 2 channel. I’ve never really had 3-ways in my house before, though I’ve auditioned lots - so I’m tempted to figure out a 3-way design just for experience sake. But I do like the compact nature of 2-ways so I think I ultimately want a 2-way design as well. I’ve been toying with just building the Maximus 12 but I really want to experiment with ribbons/amts since I’ve never had them in my house. That led me to the tpl150h.

I think I may start with the 3-way. The question is, given I’m new to all this, do I go with something like the tpl150h or start with something less expensive but with good reviews like the Fountek neox3 or arum Cantus g1 or something. Big range in price. But I’ve always been one to just go big or go home, even if I’m just messing around experimenting..

In your case, if you’re set on a 2-way, it seems like the tpl150h will limit your woofer choices given how it needs to be crossed over. So if you’re set on those woofers you found, sounds like perhaps time to look at other tweeters.
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post #51 of 86 Old 02-16-2019, 12:11 PM
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I definitely use mine for two way music all the time. For me it's really important that the system does that too.

My previous towers were great for music also, but these new ones are better..

And yes with the dispersion I was referring to vertical, but I don't listen to content standing up so it's completely not an issue in a half decent treated room IMO.

The horizontal dispersion is pretty good. It drops off rather quickly from 10-20k if you move out of the sweet spot, but I'm sure a lot of drivers do that.

I will post the polar plots shortly which show all the off axis measurements I did up to about 75 degrees off axis. Which is rather extreme.
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post #52 of 86 Old 02-16-2019, 12:14 PM
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I definitely use mine for two way music all the time. For me it's really important that the system does that too
Ok cool. I hadn’t recalled anything from your build threads about music so I wasn’t sure. Glad to hear they are great for that application too! I love the modular concept.
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post #53 of 86 Old 02-16-2019, 12:19 PM
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Ok cool. I hadn’t recalled anything from your build threads about music so I wasn’t sure. Glad to hear they are great for that application too! I love the modular concept.
I exclusively used music to test out the design as I was going. Its also why I struggled with them at first, I had to get the toe in right because initially for music I was too close to them to get a great soundstage due to them simply being so damned large, they were too big I couldn't toe them properly. I was sitting only 2.8m from them at the time. Now I sit 3.2m and they are toed in properly and it's awesome sound stage.

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post #54 of 86 Old 02-16-2019, 01:34 PM
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So here are some off axis and polar measurements I did a very long time ago. I really should do them again since I am better at measuring now, and I didnt do these outdoors, but it should give some idea. I do think the proper measurements would be alsightly better now, as in the off axis wont actually bloom like it seems to here on a couple of the measurements.

Anyway. Above 10k is where it quickly suffers. The rest seems to decline in a pretty predictable manner.



Normalised:





Not sure which of these you guys prefer to normalise to, so I did a bunch of them.

Polar Normalised to 0deg.



7.5Deg



15 Deg



22.5 Deg

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post #55 of 86 Old 02-17-2019, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been drooling over these big bad boys.

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/do...i_Calpamos.pdf

Sensitivity • 93 dB / 2,83 volts
Impedance • 8 ohms nominal
Frequency response • 37 - 20.000 Hz (-3dB) / 33 - 22.000Hz (-6dB)
Crossover frequency • 650Hz / 12dB (2nd order parallel crossover)
Power rating • circa 200 watts RMS
Dimensions (W x H x D) • 486 x 900 x 600mm (without stand)
Weight (finished product) • circa 75kg each


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post #56 of 86 Old 02-17-2019, 09:23 AM
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Looks nice. Much different than fusion 15? Looks like it extends a little lower at the expense of sensitivity. Probably better for two channel I guess but my gut says the top end on the f15 sounds smoother just based on my experience with the HTM12s

Quote:
Originally Posted by dashpuppy View Post
I've been drooling over these big bad boys.

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/do...i_Calpamos.pdf

Sensitivity • 93 dB / 2,83 volts
Impedance • 8 ohms nominal
Frequency response • 37 - 20.000 Hz (-3dB) / 33 - 22.000Hz (-6dB)
Crossover frequency • 650Hz / 12dB (2nd order parallel crossover)
Power rating • circa 200 watts RMS
Dimensions (W x H x D) • 486 x 900 x 600mm (without stand)
Weight (finished product) • circa 75kg each


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post #57 of 86 Old 02-17-2019, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
Looks nice. Much different than fusion 15? Looks like it extends a little lower at the expense of sensitivity. Probably better for two channel I guess but my gut says the top end on the f15 sounds smoother just based on my experience with the HTM12s
Yep.!

I'm doing some googling to see if i can make something like this but using a 12" driver and smaller CD & WG
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post #58 of 86 Old 02-17-2019, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by dashpuppy View Post
Yep.!

I'm doing some googling to see if i can make something like this but using a 12" driver and smaller CD & WG
HTM12?? I have three in my theater. Love them. Haven’t used them for any serious 2 channel listening but when I have listened to music it sounded great.
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post #59 of 86 Old 02-18-2019, 03:30 PM
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Not sure what you mean, they're fully active speakers, so all crossover, shaping, and room correction is done with FIR filtering...

Spoiler!
Hey, I found your data really interesting, Just from a pure interest point of view, I had a go at completely redoing my Active calibration yesterday this time using the raw driver measurements average from 6pts at the listening position as the initial PEQ, rather than using outdoor measurements. I am not really sure which is ultimately better to do regarding active. I thought I might be able to come up with a cleaner final response. Its pretty close to the old response at the end of the day really, not sure which I prefer. Any reason why you choose to do in room measurements for the raw drivers rather than outdoor, then separately calibrating in room?

Spoiler!
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post #60 of 86 Old 02-18-2019, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Hey, I found your data really interesting, Just from a pure interest point of view, I had a go at completely redoing my Active calibration yesterday this time using the raw driver measurements average from 6pts at the listening position as the initial PEQ, rather than using outdoor measurements. I am not really sure which is ultimately better to do regarding active. I thought I might be able to come up with a cleaner final response. Its pretty close to the old response at the end of the day really, not sure which I prefer. Any reason why you choose to do in room measurements for the raw drivers rather than outdoor, then separately calibrating in room?

Spoiler!
Final response looks great. I just figured if I was going to be correcting in room, might as well do it all at once. Gotta be careful on what not to correct. Some stuff will look OK in an average, but if you have all the spatial stuff displayed, you can see there may be some areas that aren't too pretty.

Here's an example of something that I over corrected around 400hz and possibly other places


And then after fixing... The small dip is preferable to a peak which may stand out more. You can see some notches in the target response in the earlier posts showing spots I let be.


Vector average (found in controls under all measurements) will average magnitude and phase. That's why my impulse looks cleaner, as when averaging multiple locations, it removes some of the room effects from the measurements.

Then once you're nicely eq'd and time aligned, your step will look like this:



Your T30 is a bit low if anything (ideal supposedly .25 - .35), your room would not likely benefit much from treatments. There are no big reflections in your ETC either. I see one on the right channel at around 5ms in, but not too bad. This is likely due to the closeness of the listening position to the speakers compared to the boundaries.
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Last edited by notnyt; 02-18-2019 at 05:13 PM.
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