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post #61 of 86 Old 02-18-2019, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Little Change in direction for me here ! Well Actually a 100% Change. I have changed back to my original Project! I bought back my Iwatta600 horns.From ryan Bouma ! And will be building a Blumenhofer Acoustics Genuin FS 2 type "clone"

I also Snagged a Pair of De250 Compression Drivers.. Next week I plan on ordering a pair of 12" Eminence KappaLite 3012LF woofers for this..

Some pics !






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post #62 of 86 Old 02-18-2019, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Final response looks great. I just figured if I was going to be correcting in room, might as well do it all at once. Gotta be careful on what not to correct. Some stuff will look OK in an average, but if you have all the spatial stuff displayed, you can see there may be some areas that aren't too pretty.

Here's an example of something that I over corrected around 400hz and possibly other places

And then after fixing... The small dip is preferable to a peak which may stand out more. You can see some notches in the target response in the earlier posts showing spots I let be.

Vector average (found in controls under all measurements) will average magnitude and phase. That's why my impulse looks cleaner, as when averaging multiple locations, it removes some of the room effects from the measurements.

Then once you're nicely eq'd and time aligned, your step will look like this:

Your T30 is a bit low if anything (ideal supposedly .25 - .35), your room would not likely benefit much from treatments. There are no big reflections in your ETC either. I see one on the right channel at around 5ms in, but not too bad. This is likely due to the closeness of the listening position to the speakers compared to the boundaries.
Thanks, just quckly.

If I look at the min phase response of the speaker, is that what the real phase is without the room interactions? As in, is that the generally accurate phase response of the complete system?

The phase as measured is all over the joint with like 20 phase shifts from 3m away with mic hovering over a leather sofa, but generated min phase looks good.





Same with the impulse? Is the min phase impulse what the system would do in a perfect environment without interactions?

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post #63 of 86 Old 02-18-2019, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dashpuppy View Post
Little Change in direction for me here ! Well Actually a 100% Change. I have changed back to my original Project! I bought back my Iwatta600 horns.From ryan Bouma ! And will be building a Blumenhofer Acoustics Genuin FS 2 type "clone"

I also Snagged a Pair of De250 Compression Drivers.. Next week I plan on ordering a pair of 12" Eminence KappaLite 3012LF woofers for this..

Some pics !

Looks awesome,

Sorry to hijack thread for a moment, I am done
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post #64 of 86 Old 02-18-2019, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks awesome,

Sorry to hijack thread for a moment, I am done
It's all good ! i was reading and learning what you were saying so no worries !
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post #65 of 86 Old 02-19-2019, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Thanks, just quckly.

If I look at the min phase response of the speaker, is that what the real phase is without the room interactions? As in, is that the generally accurate phase response of the complete system?

The phase as measured is all over the joint with like 20 phase shifts from 3m away with mic hovering over a leather sofa, but generated min phase looks good.


Same with the impulse? Is the min phase impulse what the system would do in a perfect environment without interactions?
I'm just plotting phase response, not min phase. Min phase will remove any delay that causes the crazy phase wrapping. PEQ causes delays/phase shifts.


https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/he...imumphase.html

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post #66 of 86 Old 05-02-2019, 11:30 AM
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So I just found the ribbons that looked interesting to me previously. It was the Raal 140-15d

While the off axis is good, the distortion characteristics are not. Looks like I'll be sticking with 4" CDs for a while. The TPL-150H does much better with distortion than the Raal.

Lots of measurements here:

http://www.audioexcite.com/?page_id=2523

Here you can see distortion on my center channel using a less expensive 2453H-SL, which is mostly influenced by the noise floor of the room (hence why it goes from red to grey) and distortion of the mic itself (cheap umik-1. Fairly hard to measure as moving the mic closer increases distortion while moving further away lowers spl decreasing snr, causing distortion to fall below the noise floor).

2453H-SL <0.1% THD across the frequency range of the CD crossed at 800hz. 85dbspl at the listening position which is about 4m from the speaker, so this is closer to the 95dbspl Raal measurements.



Raal 4% THD at 1khz and 1% at 2khz. meh. It's also high third order, which is not pleasing. The CD above is 2nd order, with 3rd very far below.


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post #67 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been listening LOTS with my new enclosures. Soon i'll get out to Ryan b's house to measure and start working on Passive Crossovers. I so hate Active
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post #68 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 09:15 AM
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Any reason for the hate on Active?
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post #69 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Any reason for the hate on Active?
I have different amplifiers. one is more sensitive than the other, and the Minidsp's clip way to easy..
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post #70 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 10:23 AM
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I have different amplifiers. one is more sensitive than the other, and the Minidsp's clip way to easy..
Amp gain shouldn't really be a problem. Put the higher sens amp on the lower sens speaker. Stop using old or low voltage minidsp stuff.

That's like saying you hate passive because you only have 3 different resistors to choose from.
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post #71 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 12:17 PM
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I'm building a TPL-150H + AE TD12M (also planning to make it a 3 way in long run, by adding a Beyma 15P80Nd), and will be using a Monacor DSM-48LAN

The TPL will be powered by a parasound zamp v3 that i bough used on Ebay for 80€, and the AE TD12M by a Crown Xli 800.
The zamp v3 has variable gain knobs, and is only 45W, but will be more than enough to power the [email protected]@ 1m TPL.
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post #72 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Amp gain shouldn't really be a problem. Put the higher sens amp on the lower sens speaker. Stop using old or low voltage minidsp stuff.

That's like saying you hate passive because you only have 3 different resistors to choose from.
the mini DSP isn't old its a 2x4. And doing that didn't help. LIke i said the mix matched amplifiers plays havoc on the input & output gains..
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post #73 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 12:28 PM
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the mini DSP isn't old its a 2x4. And doing that didn't help. LIke i said the mix matched amplifiers plays havoc on the input & output gains..
Doesn't make sense. Your hf section is 12-20 db more sensitive than your lf section...

minidsp 2x4 is old and low voltage. The 2x4HD has more voltage potential iirc.

Either way, there are lots of options available to run an active setup.
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post #74 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Doesn't make sense. Your hf section is 12-20 db more sensitive than your lf section...

minidsp 2x4 is old and low voltage. The 2x4HD has more voltage potential iirc.

Either way, there are lots of options available to run an active setup.
The MD 2x4 HD only puts out MAX 2V RMS My second amplifier needs WAY more than that. It's ok tho. I'm not using Active in my setup Passive crossovers & mono block Class A amplifier per speaker..
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post #75 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 12:44 PM
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The MD 2x4 HD only puts out MAX 2V RMS My second amplifier needs WAY more than that. It's ok tho. I'm not using Active in my setup Passive crossovers & mono block Class A amplifier per speaker..
class a... I just threw up in my mouth a little lol.

Your amps must be very low gain if 2V is not enough to drive them to levels sufficient to power the high efficiency speakers you have.

What amps are you using, and how much gain do they provide?
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post #76 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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class a... I just threw up in my mouth a little lol.

Your amps must be very low gain if 2V is not enough to drive them to levels sufficient to power the high efficiency speakers you have.

What amps are you using, and how much gain do they provide?
Sorry, remember you like that class d garbage..

Class A amplifiers are 18-28watts.
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post #77 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 01:03 PM
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Sorry, remember you like that class d garbage..

Class A amplifiers are 18-28watts.
There are higher power class A amplifiers available, but I guess you're just talking about yours. Still, max output level is not really related to gain...

So which amps are you using that are giving you trouble and how much gain?

As for class D garbage, I don't have any trouble driving my speakers with my cool running dead silent transparent class D amps

nc400



There are also great class AB amps, though far less efficient. I like the Neurochrome mod-686 and would use those if Hypex Ncore was not available.
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post #78 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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There are higher power class A amplifiers available, but I guess you're just talking about yours. Still, max output level is not really related to gain...

So which amps are you using that are giving you trouble and how much gain?

As for class D garbage, I don't have any trouble driving my speakers with my cool running dead silent transparent class D amps

nc400



There are also great class AB amps, though far less efficient. I like the Neurochrome mod-686 and would use those if Hypex Ncore was not available.
LM chip amps ? are you f'n kidding me ? Damn dude !

And max output does have lots to do with input gain.. IF the amplifier needs 6v input gain to get to max output where as another amplifier needs 20V input to get max output then of course input gain has everything to do with it..
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post #79 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 01:37 PM
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LM chip amps ? are you f'n kidding me ? Damn dude !

And max output does have lots to do with input gain.. IF the amplifier needs 6v input gain to get to max output where as another amplifier needs 20V input to get max output then of course input gain has everything to do with it..
Sure, but they're not necessarily linked. Pro gear, or gear with balanced ins, will generally have lower gain than consumer gear.

So, what amps are you using and what gain?

Before knocking the LM3886 chip amps, you should look at the measurements. With a proper implementation as Tom has done, and enough of them to provide adequate current and voltage, they're quite excellent. The mod-686 uses 6 of them per channel. Two sets of 3 in a BTL config.



With amps of this caliber, anything from minidsp will pretty much be the weak link in the signal chain. There are plenty of other processor options available, though. I haven't measured the 2x4hd, but I've been unimpressed with their other products, which is unfortunate since their interface is nice and simple.

Just found a 4x10HD measurement, which looks much better than the other measurements I've seen and taken of their gear, but still a bit meh with regards to distortion and higher frequency performance. At least they got the noise levels down a bit.

https://www.neurochrome.com/minidsp-4x10-hd/
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post #80 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Sure, but they're not necessarily linked. Pro gear, or gear with balanced ins, will generally have lower gain than consumer gear.

So, what amps are you using and what gain?

Before knocking the LM3886 chip amps, you should look at the measurements. With a proper implementation as Tom has done, and enough of them to provide adequate current and voltage, they're quite excellent. The mod-686 uses 6 of them per channel. Two sets of 3 in a BTL config.



With amps of this caliber, anything from minidsp will pretty much be the weak link in the signal chain. There are plenty of other processor options available, though. I haven't measured the 2x4hd, but I've been unimpressed with their other products, which is unfortunate since their interface is nice and simple.

Just found a 4x10HD measurement, which looks much better than the other measurements I've seen and taken of their gear, but still a bit meh with regards to distortion and higher frequency performance. At least they got the noise levels down a bit.

https://www.neurochrome.com/minidsp-4x10-hd/
Aleph Mini amplifiers & soon to be Aleph mini-zen.. The mini is 20-30watts depending on rail voltage. The Aleph Mini-Zen is 50-80Watts rms Class a And again depending on Rail voltage. Both can be SE or BAL input.
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post #81 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 04:28 PM
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Aleph Mini amplifiers & soon to be Aleph mini-zen.. The mini is 20-30watts depending on rail voltage. The Aleph Mini-Zen is 50-80Watts rms Class a And again depending on Rail voltage. Both can be SE or BAL input.
So how much gain? Why bother using amps like these? They're not powerful or clean, any modern avr would do better

Aren't the Aleph minis like 20db of gain? That gives you 20v of output with 2v of input. 50w into 8 ohms
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post #82 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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So how much gain? Why bother using amps like these? They're not powerful or clean, any modern avr would do better

Aren't the Aleph minis like 20db of gain? That gives you 20v of output with 2v of input. 50w into 8 ohms
Clean ? what ? the Aleph mini's are VERY clean power.. AVR with all that switching digital crap NO THANKS! The Aleph's will go up to about 5-7v.. Depending on Balanced or Se mode.. I think i have the Mini's at 30v rails with 5.5V input achieving 28watts before clipping..

Then again, i really don't need more than 20watts of power, its just nice to have that 50+ from the zens if i want to go louder..

Also, remember im a 2 channel person not 5-7+
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Clean ? what ? the Aleph mini's are VERY clean power.. AVR with all that switching digital crap NO THANKS! The Aleph's will go up to about 5-7v.. Depending on Balanced or Se mode.. I think i have the Mini's at 30v rails with 5.5V input achieving 28watts before clipping..

Then again, i really don't need more than 20watts of power, its just nice to have that 50+ from the zens if i want to go louder..

Also, remember im a 2 channel person not 5-7+
Clean? no, not really. Lots of IMD and THD is fairly high.
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post #84 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Clean? no, not really. Lots of IMD and THD is fairly high.
I'll tell ya what. You go use your Manufactured SMPS Class D things. I'll keep using my Class a amplifiers I built with low THD & good clean sound..
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I'll tell ya what. You go use your Manufactured SMPS Class D things. I'll keep using my Class a amplifiers I built with low THD & good clean sound..
*shrug* seems like you're stuck in the past, no wonder you can't deal with active.

Something like a fusion plate amp would get the job done and provide much cleaner output.

As for low THD, maybe you can back that up with measurements? Nothing I've seen indicates that. THD is fairly high. IMD is worse. Dynamics will be compressed from the low power output.

Not trying to crap on your choices, just bringing some actual facts to the discussion.

Here are Aleph 3 measurements...

Pass Aleph 3, THD+noise vs frequency at (from top to bottom at 100Hz): 4W into 2 ohms, 2W into 4 ohms, 1W into 8 ohms, and 2.83V into simulated speaker load (right channel dashed).


Pass Aleph 3, HF intermodulation spectrum, DC-22kHz, 19+20kHz at 26.7W into 4 ohms (linear frequency scale).


Pass Aleph 3, distortion (%) vs output power into (from bottom to top at 40W): 8 ohms, 4 ohms, and 2 ohms.
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post #86 of 86 Old 05-03-2019, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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*shrug* seems like you're stuck in the past, no wonder you can't deal with active.

Something like a fusion plate amp would get the job done and provide much cleaner output.

As for low THD, maybe you can back that up with measurements? Nothing I've seen indicates that. THD is fairly high. IMD is worse. Dynamics will be compressed from the low power output.

Not trying to crap on your choices, just bringing some actual facts to the discussion.

Here are Aleph 3 measurements...

Pass Aleph 3, THD+noise vs frequency at (from top to bottom at 100Hz): 4W into 2 ohms, 2W into 4 ohms, 1W into 8 ohms, and 2.83V into simulated speaker load (right channel dashed).


Pass Aleph 3, HF intermodulation spectrum, DC-22kHz, 19+20kHz at 26.7W into 4 ohms (linear frequency scale).


Pass Aleph 3, distortion (%) vs output power into (from bottom to top at 40W): 8 ohms, 4 ohms, and 2 ohms.
Um, those measurements are for the Aleph 3, my amps only have some of the front end of the Aleph 3. Not all of it. I'll do a measurement this weekend if I have time and post results.
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