Any interest in a BFM Goliath addition to the BFM David? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 04:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Any interest in a BFM Goliath addition to the BFM David?

Good Morning!

Just wanted to see if there’s any interest in a Bill Fitzmaurice design for a Goliath as a larger version of the David design. I was looking for a DIY pair of speakers that go lower and higher than the David while still being accurate, and so reached out to Bill yesterday. He is willing to design a larger version of the David for a price I’m willing to pay given his track record and results. Basically, as long as I can get them through a 36” doorway, I don’t mind how big or heavy they turn out to be and I haven’t found any speakers that would match what I image he could design for that price. There’s no WAF since I did that twice before learning my lesson. The way I see it, paying for a custom speaker design is way cheaper than having a wife 😁.

I’m looking at a timeline of around six months to pay for the design, but am willing to wait for greatness. Good things shouldn’t be rushed!

To put this simply, should Goliath slay David this time? After all, David was really the aggressor was in the story. Goliath couldn’t even see!
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post #2 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 05:28 AM
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not too sure there would be a lot of interest, there are already many horn designs (free ones) that extend very low and would, with some work, fit through a normal door way.


Submaximus v3 for example is less than 30".
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post #3 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 06:55 AM
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Lynx_two,

Trimlock is 100% spot on with his post. Are you familiar with the SKHorn? If you haven't already, go ahead and read this thread from AVS Forum audio classifieds:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-a...amplifier.html

It's a wonderful read. Those SKHorns nearly ruined both his home and marriage!


Just a thought - have fun!

Dave
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post #4 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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The problem is, from what I see the SKHorns are separate subs... I’m looking for a truly full range speaker with high sensitivity and no need for separate subwoofers.

There’s something about the bass from a folded horn design that’s addicting- probably the fact it’s so free of distortion and has zero effort. I know I could technically get more out of separates, but again, I’m looking for a big (huge?) tower speaker design. Something that can reproduce the sheer power of a full orchestra while also being able to go really low with EDM. I also love the sound of good ribbon tweeters.

I miss big tower speakers. The ex basically had me convinced it was my idea to get rid of them lol. It’s like 30% of the music is now missing. Currently I use the Yamaha MSP5 Studio monitors, and while I love the fact they are dead-accurate (if the mix is bad, MAN you hear it!) they don’t have the power or low extension needed. I’m looking for something accurate that will be able to not just go loud, but also have that big effortless sound at low volumes. Those huge magnepan 20.7 panels do this, but I can’t justify $15k on speakers 😄

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post #5 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 08:40 AM
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1899?
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post #6 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post
The problem is, from what I see the SKHorns are separate subs... I’m looking for a truly full range speaker with high sensitivity and no need for separate subwoofers.

There’s something about the bass from a folded horn design that’s addicting- probably the fact it’s so free of distortion and has zero effort. I know I could technically get more out of separates, but again, I’m looking for a big (huge?) tower speaker design. Something that can reproduce the sheer power of a full orchestra while also being able to go really low with EDM. I also love the sound of good ribbon tweeters.

I miss big tower speakers. The ex basically had me convinced it was my idea to get rid of them lol. It’s like 30% of the music is now missing. Currently I use the Yamaha MSP5 Studio monitors, and while I love the fact they are dead-accurate (if the mix is bad, MAN you hear it!) they don’t have the power or low extension needed. I’m looking for something accurate that will be able to not just go loud, but also have that big effortless sound at low volumes. Those huge magnepan 20.7 panels do this, but I can’t justify $15k on speakers 😄


Have you seen the DIYSoundgroup Titan 630XXL. It is a 20Hz tuned dual 15 with horn loaded mid and highs. No it doesn’t have your ribbon tweeters but it does have pro audio speakers that are more efficient and can give you the “sitting right in front of the band” kind of sound you’re interested in. As a bonus you can get them over 105dB with just a 8 watt tube amplifier. They also don’t sound honky like most old style horns.


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post #7 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post
Good Morning!

Just wanted to see if there’s any interest in a Bill Fitzmaurice design for a Goliath as a larger version of the David design. I was looking for a DIY pair of speakers that go lower and higher than the David while still being accurate, and so reached out to Bill yesterday. He is willing to design a larger version of the David for a price I’m willing to pay given his track record and results. Basically, as long as I can get them through a 36” doorway, I don’t mind how big or heavy they turn out to be and I haven’t found any speakers that would match what I image he could design for that price. There’s no WAF since I did that twice before learning my lesson. The way I see it, paying for a custom speaker design is way cheaper than having a wife 😁.

I’m looking at a timeline of around six months to pay for the design, but am willing to wait for greatness. Good things shouldn’t be rushed!

To put this simply, should Goliath slay David this time? After all, David was really the aggressor was in the story. Goliath couldn’t even see!

Would you consider purchasing a seat on a sinking ship?


https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/the-...s-closing.html


Bill caters to people that have big aspirations but no money. Ask yourself, do the claims made by Bill make sense?


First he uses the phrase 1m/1w spl, with a questionable graph but below that he uses the phrase 95 dB/2.83V/1m. These are not interchangeable.



In no way will that tweeter deliver 95 dB/1w/1m. Hint... the DC Re of the tweeter will be low, and the 'applied' power to the tweeter will be higher than 1w.



Furthermore, ask yourself what the power, excursion and distortion limited output of the tweeter itself is.



Hint... no more than about 105 dB/1m. Move a few meters back, and well... do I need to mention that the output will be lower than that?



I will stop there, and let you do some more research.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #8 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Any interest in a BFM Goliath addition to the BFM David?

Well I looked around and don’t really see an issue... Honestly you can use different drivers and crossovers, the box design and crossover design is arguably more important that the drivers themselves... although of course, the best design in the world won’t make up for totally crappy drivers.

I’m familiar with BFM’s stuff and have built a few of them, so to my ears they sound pretty d-mn good considering the price. Like I said I’m a single dude. I make just over 100k, no kids, and didn’t get raped in divorce courts, so I have money, I just don’t like spending more than I have to lol. One of my coworkers just bought a $486k house and I just shake my head. Hey, if it makes him happy, right?

I have a hard enough time watching my tax dollars going to fund children who aren’t biologically mine, just from an evolutionary standpoint, but that’s a whole different ball of wax . I’m on track to retire at 55 (by retire I mean, work what I want when I want and not feel the need to be a taxpaying wage-slave)

I’m open to other designs, I just haven’t seen anything out there in the DIY space that,

A. Is an actual full-range, large tower
B. Doesn’t require a ton of EQ to be accurate
C. Doesn’t cost $10k to build

I’m always open if you know of anything else! . Like I said, if it’s a folded horn and uses ribbon tweeters, that would be a huge plus.


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post #9 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 01:16 PM
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Premium DIY 3-way that checks all the boxes....
https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-a...us-12-kit.html
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post #10 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post

I’m open to other designs, I just haven’t seen anything out their in the DIY space that,

A. Is an actual full-range, large tower
B. Doesn’t require a ton of EQ to be accurate
C. Doesn’t cost $10k to build

I’m always open if you know of anything else! . Like I said, if it’s a folded horn and uses ribbon tweeters, that would be a huge plus.


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Statements (any of them) and be done with it. throw in folded sub of your choosing, though likely only needed for home theater etc.
Troels has the ATiRi and the AT-SW
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post #11 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Just ran across this, it’s a BFM design so not sure what the deal is with people saying the numbers don’t add up. This is way louder than I’d ever need lol


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post #12 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Premium DIY 3-way that checks all the boxes....

https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-a...us-12-kit.html


The Maximus does look pretty outstanding... wonder if there’s a design that can go down to 20hz? Some of the electronic music nowadays gets down there. Classical usually cuts off at 30-35hz.


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post #13 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Any interest in a BFM Goliath addition to the BFM David?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VegaMan View Post
Statements (any of them) and be done with it. throw in folded sub of your choosing, though likely only needed for home theater etc.

Troels has the ATiRi and the AT-SW


Those statements look outstanding as well, and the ribbons are a huge plus. It’s too bad there’s no design that doesn’t need a separate sub to get all the way down though... if only he had a design based on larger drivers... probably a trade off though...

EDIT: the statements are out. While I appreciate the design philosophy and aesthetics, it’s clear the goal was to make a musical speaker vs an accurate one. After using the Yamaha MSP5 studio monitors and hearing a clinically accurate monitor, I would not want to go back to a ‘musical’ speaker. I love clinical accuracy, not a speaker that makes a mix ‘sound good’. Mixes either sound good or they don’t. I simply don’t listen to bad mixes.


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post #14 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 02:48 PM
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any of bills designs are going to need righteous eq. Of his designs, none use ribbons, so you'd be looking at trying to do a DR style cab with a ribbon based 2 way in front of it instead of a CD or piezo array. ( I think @MKtheater used the dr250 in his theater at one point.) DR still does maybe 80hz at best, still need a sub. Bills only offering to get down where you want to be is the THT. so youre looking at a 5'h x 2'w x 3'd stack per side to use his designs and check all the boxes. alternatively, the mid/high section of the statements is crossed around 350hz or so, could do that on top of a Klipsch LaScala style box with the ported mod DJK suggested and should get you down near 30-35hz and it should be able to meet where the statement mid section hands off

problem with FLHs that go low into the 20s are that they need to be big to do so. you can sacrifice extension or you have to go huge.
It would require a crossover rework, but the statements could have larger low frequency drivers used. you just lose the idea of horn loaded bass section.
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post #15 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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any of bills designs are going to need righteous eq. Of his designs, none use ribbons, so you'd be looking at trying to do a DR style cab with a ribbon based 2 way in front

problem with FLHs that go low into the 20s are that they need to be big to do so. you can sacrifice extension or you have to go huge.

It would require a crossover rework, but the statements could have larger low frequency drivers used. you just lose the idea of horn loaded bass section.

I’m very familiar with the THT . How big are we talking about? As long the speakers aren’t much over 7’ tall and 35” wide, hell, that’s what hand trucks are for . The Magnepan 20.7s are huge, and most of that speaker is the bass panel since you need size to go low and loud.

One thing about the Statement designs I noticed consistently is, he talks about tradeoffs between size and lower extension. Makes me wonder what he would design if the cabinet size wasn’t an issue

I like the idea of combining designs into one. There’s gotta be a way to elegantly Frankenstein () a folded horn to a ribbon and midrange design... I don’t need an array except perhaps to match sensitivity of the drivers, but if that’s the case it might be better to have dedicated amplifiers for each section yes? That’s how many pro studio monitors are designed, with a dedicated amp for the bass and tweeter (might need three for what I’m talking about). In that way you could also match amplifiers for each job...

I noticed the rest of my speakers needed some pretty decent delay (I want to say it was in the 80 - 100 ms range) correction to match the THT to my old towers in the past, so that may be a consideration as well. Do folded horns inherently have a delay when compared to an open driver? It would make sense since they are basically pushing the sound waves through a long tunnel which would make them physically farther away from the other speakers for all practical purposes...





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post #16 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post
https://youtu.be/MPbtW-E3woM

Just ran across this, it’s a BFM design so not sure what the deal is with people saying the numbers don’t add up. This is way louder than I’d ever need lol


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I watched the linked video with headphones. I don't hear anything to me that would indicate any sort of fidelity, and there is no quantum of sound pressure level mentioned. For all the viewer knows, the amplifier could be driving a speaker in close proximity to the microphone.

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post #17 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 11:39 PM
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You were given two options above. They are the 1899 and the Titan 630. Either of those would get you where you want to go. They're big (and could be built bigger if you need/want them to go lower), and they're a proven design. I wouldn't be looking towards BFM to design a speaker for you to go that low. Most of his stuff isn't designed with that in mind.

Or, you could try to design you're own. Download WinISD and work up a design. Lots of drivers to chose from. Just gotta do a little "leg" work.
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post #18 of 48 Old 02-23-2019, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post

I’m open to other designs, I just haven’t seen anything out their in the DIY space that,

A. Is an actual full-range, large tower
B. Doesn’t require a ton of EQ to be accurate
C. Doesn’t cost $10k to build
Well, $10k speakers won't get you these either. Unless you only listen in a $1m anechoic room, you will need EQ (possibly more with the request you want).


Using a Ribbon will make the design choice ultimately un-doable without some additional engineering as I don't think there's any designs that include a ribbon plus horn loading. The best design with a Ribbon is the Statements for your goals. Horn loading down to the low 20's will make one massive tower, considerably huge and IMO a fools errand as I think it would be much better to decouple the bass horn from the "tower" horn you are looking for. There really is no reason other than space to keep the sub 80hz part of a system with the tower, if you aren't limited on space you'd be better off separating this.


Javad built a complete system with horn loading down to 100hz with subs that took it down to 30's? That was possibly the most impressive 2-channel system I've seen built. Next would be the Titan's with 2x 15's or the BMS 4594 Coaxial systems, similar to the JTR towers.
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post #19 of 48 Old 02-24-2019, 12:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I watched the linked video with headphones. I don't hear anything to me that would indicate any sort of fidelity, and there is no quantum of sound pressure level mentioned. For all the viewer knows, the amplifier could be driving a speaker in close proximity to the microphone.


Dude, really? Your personal bias is showing, tuck it in man *. I have some technical experience with this stuff... 1. It’s probably a crappy mp3 played through those speakers, recorded on a cheap mic, then compressed to AAC 128 KBPS with YouTube. 2. The music itself isn’t great. 3. You can visibly see sh-t moving under the table. 4. The guy yells as loud as he can at the end. 5. The guy freely admits he had to EQ the crap out of them at the beginning. 6. The whole point of that guy’s video was to show how loud they get, nothing else.

I get if you don’t like a speaker design, but to suggest someone is going to the trouble to fake a video like that is showing you are just either A. extremely closed minded about that stuff or B. haven’t actually built or heard any of his designs yourself or C. don’t like Bill himself. D. Had a bad experience.

Either way, while I appreciate your input, I can’t take your opinion as an unbiased one


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You were given two options above. They are the 1899 and the Titan 630. Either of those would get you where you want to go. They're big (and could be built bigger if you need/want them to go lower), and they're a proven design. I wouldn't be looking towards BFM to design a speaker for you to go that low. Most of his stuff isn't designed with that in mind.



Or, you could try to design you're own. Download WinISD and work up a design. Lots of drivers to chose from. Just gotta do a little "leg" work.


I’m familiar with WinISD and crossover design. I have the skills to design my own, just too many interests to focus on one thing (or maybe I just get bored easily lol)

I spent a couple hours looking around for both the 1899 and the Titan 630XL... I found threads talking about them with a few photos, but no full designs (original links seemed to be down or gone). Both were impressive builds, especially when it was mentioned they could both be sealed (at least the Titans). I’ll keep looking and see if I can find some archives with the designs and measurements intact. Not really a fan of winging a project like this, I kinda prefer math . If it doesn’t work on paper, it usually doesn’t work in real life...


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post #21 of 48 Old 02-24-2019, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post
I’m familiar with WinISD and crossover design. I have the skills to design my own, just too many interests to focus on one thing (or maybe I just get bored easily lol)

I spent a couple hours looking around for both the 1899 and the Titan 630XL... I found threads talking about them with a few photos, but no full designs (original links seemed to be down or gone). Both were impressive builds, especially when it was mentioned they could both be sealed (at least the Titans). I’ll keep looking and see if I can find some archives with the designs and measurements intact. Not really a fan of winging a project like this, I kinda prefer math . If it doesn’t work on paper, it usually doesn’t work in real life...


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All you'd need to do is ask around.

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post #22 of 48 Old 02-24-2019, 01:24 AM - Thread Starter
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All you'd need to do is ask around.

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I’m on it, just gotta track down the original designers


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post #23 of 48 Old 02-24-2019, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post
Dude, really? Your personal bias is showing, tuck it in man *. I have some technical experience with this stuff... 1. It’s probably a crappy mp3 played through those speakers, recorded on a cheap mic, then compressed to AAC 128 KBPS with YouTube. 2. The music itself isn’t great. 3. You can visibly see sh-t moving under the table. 4. The guy yells as loud as he can at the end. 5. The guy freely admits he had to EQ the crap out of them at the beginning. 6. The whole point of that guy’s video was to show how loud they get, nothing else.

I get if you don’t like a speaker design, but to suggest someone is going to the trouble to fake a video like that is showing you are just either A. extremely closed minded about that stuff or B. haven’t actually built or heard any of his designs yourself or C. don’t like Bill himself. D. Had a bad experience.

Either way, while I appreciate your input, I can’t take your opinion as an unbiased one


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3. How does this relate to the BFM stuff? The bass is just a couple ported subs.
4. The guy does yell. Who knows how loud he's yelling.
6. And the video doesn't do that at all. As Micheal pointed out, there's literally nothing to quantify how loud those speakers are playing other than "loud". Lots of speakers will play loud.
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post #24 of 48 Old 02-24-2019, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post
Honestly you can use different drivers and crossovers, the box design and crossover design is arguably more important that the drivers themselves...
The best designed crossovers are useless if you start changing the drivers. The crossover design must take the intended drivers and cabinet into consideration. Start changing those and you may as well use an off-the-shelf crossover.
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post #25 of 48 Old 02-24-2019, 11:18 AM
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Dude, really? Your personal bias is showing, tuck it in man *. I have some technical experience with this stuff... 1. It’s probably a crappy mp3 played through those speakers, recorded on a cheap mic, then compressed to AAC 128 KBPS with YouTube. 2. The music itself isn’t great. 3. You can visibly see sh-t moving under the table. 4. The guy yells as loud as he can at the end. 5. The guy freely admits he had to EQ the crap out of them at the beginning. 6. The whole point of that guy’s video was to show how loud they get, nothing else.

I get if you don’t like a speaker design, but to suggest someone is going to the trouble to fake a video like that is showing you are just either A. extremely closed minded about that stuff or B. haven’t actually built or heard any of his designs yourself or C. don’t like Bill himself. D. Had a bad experience.

Either way, while I appreciate your input, I can’t take your opinion as an unbiased one


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If you have technical experience with 'this' stuff, it certainly does not show.



First you come on here asking if anyone else is interested in your pet project, a DIY set of speakers that go higher and lower than 'David' and are 'accurate'. Accurate how? Linear tracking of spl? Polar response?



1. You want them big and are willing to pay BFM a price you can live with.

2. Full range, high sensitivity. Able to reproduce the sheer power of an orchestra and still play EDM.

3. You reference the Magnepan 20.7 as a speaker that can meet your goals with effortless sound at low levels, but you are not willing to pay for it. ( Hint: 86 dB /500 hz/ 1meter for the Magnepan 20.7 is not high sensitivity at all. )



A few other speakers were mentioned, then you mention you do not want a separate subwoofer. There are several reasons for separating the sub bass from the main loudspeakers.





Reproducing the sheer power of an orchestra will require sound pressure levels in excess of 110 dB at your listening position. Once the distance to the listening position is known, you can scale to find out how much output you need at 1 meter from your speaker.



No one cares that you make 100K, or that you are single, or that you didn't get raped in divorce court.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #26 of 48 Old 02-24-2019, 11:49 AM
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https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...-horn-125.html


Controlled directivity from >500 hz, 120 [email protected] capable, point source ( drivers within 1/4 wavelength )


Uses 2 SB acoustics 8" woofers and a 2" SB acoustics tweeter.

Woofers $ 91.85 each: https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...45-8-8-woofer/
Full range $ 28.25 each https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co....5-full-range/
Horn $84.99 each https://www.loudspeakersplus.com/18-...und-xt1464.htm


How does it measure?


Full range driver distortion at 90 [email protected] 1m:





With woofers and crossover, at 100 [email protected] 1m.






Vertical polar response:






Horizontal polars:













Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #27 of 48 Old 02-24-2019, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
If you have technical experience with 'this' stuff, it certainly does not show.



First you come on here asking if anyone else is interested in your pet project, a DIY set of speakers that go higher and lower than 'David' and are 'accurate'. Accurate how? Linear tracking of spl? Polar response?



1. You want them big and are willing to pay BFM a price you can live with.

2. Full range, high sensitivity. Able to reproduce the sheer power of an orchestra and still play EDM.

3. You reference the Magnepan 20.7 as a speaker that can meet your goals with effortless sound at low levels, but you are not willing to pay for it. ( Hint: 86 dB /500 hz/ 1meter for the Magnepan 20.7 is not high sensitivity at all. )



A few other speakers were mentioned, then you mention you do not want a separate subwoofer. There are several reasons for separating the sub bass from the main loudspeakers.





Reproducing the sheer power of an orchestra will require sound pressure levels in excess of 110 dB at your listening position. Once the distance to the listening position is known, you can scale to find out how much output you need at 1 meter from your speaker.



No one cares that you make 100K, or that you are single, or that you didn't get raped in divorce court.


Well... sorry guy/girl, you clearly have some personal issues to work out. I know voice over text is difficult, but I always try to read everything in the best light possible. All I did was respond to you fairly cordially, considering, and everyone else reading the thread can see that. I’m not saying anything that isn’t in response to all the others here who are actually helpful. I must not be communicating with you clearly, since are misreading my posts so I won’t be addressing you anymore since you’re clearly just wanting to troll lol

Hope you are able to get whatever issues you have worked out, life’s too short!

#dontfeedthetrolls


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post #28 of 48 Old 02-24-2019, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dorri732 View Post
The best designed crossovers are useless if you start changing the drivers. The crossover design must take the intended drivers and cabinet into consideration. Start changing those and you may as well use an off-the-shelf crossover.


Yes, apologies I should’ve clarified. Of course the crossover must be designed for the drivers and cabinet, that’s what I meant by the box and crossover being potentially more important than the driver you are using (although yes, I get they all work synergistically together lol) vs just buying an expensive driver and stuffing it in a box


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post #29 of 48 Old 02-24-2019, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Those speakers are all BFM designs including the two subs at 90 degrees in the corner, but you do present perfectly valid points regarding how loud he’s yelling and the fact a lot of speakers play loud but suck 😁. One of the reasons I posted this thread was to find out if me spending money on a different design could help others and not just myself, but as it turns out there’s definitely other designs that will meet my goals, and from the few people who’ve posted here it feels as though there’s some better options. Top two being the 1899 design and the Titan 630XXL. The best part is, both of these builds are less expensive than I would have paid to begin with which is never a bad thing 😊.

I’m going to model what I’d need to do to implement the ribbon tweeters from the Statements into the 1899 or Titan 630XXL. Totally possible it won’t work at all but I won’t know until I do the math, right?

Thanks all for your feedback and help!

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post #30 of 48 Old 02-24-2019, 12:27 PM
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