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post #1 of 35 Old 02-25-2019, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Infinite Baffle sub questions

I built IB subs using 4x Dayton DCS 450-4 and two dual-opposes manifolds that recess into the ceiling. I know they are excursion-limited, but I figured for the price they should do an okay job, and they do. It’s just that, when watching movies, I’m getting just a taste of the subsonic effects that make you believe that all these earthshaking events that happen on screen are real. And it’s pretty easy to make them bottom out. I need more.

So first of several questions: Fi IB318 or AE IB18HT? The Fi is capable of higher output at subsonic frequencies, but requires a good bit more power to do so. The AE is a superb driver with lower distortion, higher efficiency, awesome mid bass capabilities, and only slightly more expensive when purchased in quantities of 10+. (I plan on using 8, but will buy 2 extra for the discount and use them in another project or expand the system in the future.) With the Fi, I may want separate tactile midbass speakers, like Dayton PA460 up front. With the AE, I wouldn’t need dedicated midbass because they do an excellent job at both duties simultaneously. Only problem is that best placement of subwoofers is likely not best placement for tactile midbass, unless they’re in the front or side walls, which isn’t the case for this setup. Ultimately, the Fi are more capable as HT subs regarding output, but I wonder if the lower distortion of the AE will be noticeable or beneficial at these frequencies. The AE in general is a better speaker. Thoughts?

Second question: is the most effective way to find the best placement for in-ceiling IB, to put a box sub elevated on top of the couch, and take REW measurements with the mic at potential IB locations?

Third: should I have each manifold on a separate amp channel and eq and time align separately? Or put them all on one and eq as a system?

Fourth: does a recessed manifold have a resonant frequency that affects the performance of the subs? When I put my head up into the manifold, I can hear a certain frequency amplified, like if I were to put a cup partially over my ears. How does this affect the sound at the listening position?

I guess that’s enough questions for now. As a bonus: I’m probably going to also replace my front 3 speakers with more capable in-wall coaxials. I’m currently using Yamaha 8” 2-ways all-around, and they’re doing a great job for their price, but wanting a little bit more. I was considering the Volt 10, but there is a thread discussing some higher end coaxial from DIY SG, so maybe I want to go next step up from Volt. Thoughts?




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post #2 of 35 Old 02-25-2019, 04:43 PM
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Great job on the build, it looks really clean!

Yeah, I think your relative disappointment comes from location, and you are correct that a great way to find optimal locations is to put a sub where you sit and then check positions all over the room. Also keep in mind that corners will get a huge boost and unless the response at the MLP is really bad from the corners, that's going to be the most efficient placement. If you have the option and motivation to add manifolds in all 4 corners I have a good feeling that would take care of all of your desires and capable of a flat response. Finding the 2 best corners and putting manifolds there might get you there also.

The Volts are legitimately great, but those new coaxials are probably worth waiting for if you're willing to shell out the extra dough.
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post #3 of 35 Old 02-25-2019, 05:00 PM
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If your daytons are bottoming out, just get the Fi's. They're great. The daytons are toys. The Fi's will screw in as a direct replacement - you shoudnt need to change anything. You don't need more power to drive the Fi's. They can accept more power. I'd start with a pure speaker swap and go from there. My friend has 2 18' Fi's venting into his garage in a manifold and with the drivers barely moving the whole room is filled with bone crushing bass.

The Fi IB3-18 v2.
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post #4 of 35 Old 02-25-2019, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Infinite Baffle sub questions

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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Great job on the build, it looks really clean!



Yeah, I think your relative disappointment comes from location, and you are correct that a great way to find optimal locations is to put a sub where you sit and then check positions all over the room. Also keep in mind that corners will get a huge boost and unless the response at the MLP is really bad from the corners, that's going to be the most efficient placement. If you have the option and motivation to add manifolds in all 4 corners I have a good feeling that would take care of all of your desires and capable of a flat response. Finding the 2 best corners and putting manifolds there might get you there also.



The Volts are legitimately great, but those new coaxials are probably worth waiting for if you're willing to shell out the extra dough.


Thanks!

I can’t put them in the corners unless I build the manifolds down into the room, which I guess is a possibility, but it would look kind of strange. It puts the box at barely 6’ above the floor, so you could easily reach up and touch it, or even knock your head on it.

Also I wouldn’t want them all the way in the corners so I guess I would put them between the second and third trusses, which means 2ft from the corner in each direction. Also I only have one corner I could really use. The other corners maybe if I moved them away from the walls.

At the back of the room I could easily put a manifold in line with the other two, but against the back wall. Maybe close the one closer to the center of the room and build a new one at the back. That’s probably my best option. Of course I should probably do some measuring first.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
If your daytons are bottoming out, just get the Fi's. They're great. The daytons are toys. The Fi's will screw in as a direct replacement - you shoudnt need to change anything. You don't need more power to drive the Fi's. They can accept more power. I'd start with a pure speaker swap and go from there. My friend has 2 18' Fi's venting into his garage in a manifold and with the drivers barely moving the whole room is filled with bone crushing bass.



The Fi IB3-18 v2.


Are they both in the same manifold in a dual opposes config? Where is the placement?


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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post

Second question: is the most effective way to find the best placement for in-ceiling IB, to put a box sub elevated on top of the couch, and take REW measurements with the mic at potential IB locations?
Although I have not started my Fi IB318 V2 build yet, I have done this method to find the two locations for the manifold outlets. Basically an inverted sub crawl with the mic on a stand up to the ceiling until I found a couple of good spots which weren't in the recommended locations as per http://ibsubwoofers.x10host.com/ . I will re-check prior to cutting holes and am looking forward to some truly effortless bass.
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post #7 of 35 Old 02-25-2019, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
Are they both in the same manifold in a dual opposes config? Where is the placement?


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My friend's garage install is a manifold square with 2 speakers pointing at each other. Then we cut a 10x16 rectangle hole in to the living room and put a furnace vent on it (with some stuff to make it not rattle).

I love Fi infinite baffle subs. I have 4 15's in my room in front and 4 12's in the back. I only turn the back subs on when I fill my room with guests. Honestly I hardly ever get them moving much. There's a lot of bass without them working too hard.

The photos below show the 4x12's when I originally made my room. These fired into my back which was great. Now I have 3 rows, so I added the 4x15's in front. The 15's are IB3 v2's and are a lot better than the 12's.
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post #8 of 35 Old 02-26-2019, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
I built IB subs using 4x Dayton DCS 450-4 and two dual-opposes manifolds that recess into the ceiling. I know they are excursion-limited, but I figured for the price they should do an okay job, and they do. It’s just that, when watching movies, I’m getting just a taste of the subsonic effects that make you believe that all these earthshaking events that happen on screen are real. And it’s pretty easy to make them bottom out. I need more.

So first of several questions: Fi IB318 or AE IB18HT? The Fi is capable of higher output at subsonic frequencies, but requires a good bit more power to do so. The AE is a superb driver with lower distortion, higher efficiency, awesome mid bass capabilities, and only slightly more expensive when purchased in quantities of 10+. (I plan on using 8, but will buy 2 extra for the discount and use them in another project or expand the system in the future.) With the Fi, I may want separate tactile midbass speakers, like Dayton PA460 up front. With the AE, I wouldn’t need dedicated midbass because they do an excellent job at both duties simultaneously. Only problem is that best placement of subwoofers is likely not best placement for tactile midbass, unless they’re in the front or side walls, which isn’t the case for this setup. Ultimately, the Fi are more capable as HT subs regarding output, but I wonder if the lower distortion of the AE will be noticeable or beneficial at these frequencies. The AE in general is a better speaker. Thoughts?

Second question: is the most effective way to find the best placement for in-ceiling IB, to put a box sub elevated on top of the couch, and take REW measurements with the mic at potential IB locations?

Third: should I have each manifold on a separate amp channel and eq and time align separately? Or put them all on one and eq as a system?

Fourth: does a recessed manifold have a resonant frequency that affects the performance of the subs? When I put my head up into the manifold, I can hear a certain frequency amplified, like if I were to put a cup partially over my ears. How does this affect the sound at the listening position?

I guess that’s enough questions for now. As a bonus: I’m probably going to also replace my front 3 speakers with more capable in-wall coaxials. I’m currently using Yamaha 8” 2-ways all-around, and they’re doing a great job for their price, but wanting a little bit more. I was considering the Volt 10, but there is a thread discussing some higher end coaxial from DIY SG, so maybe I want to go next step up from Volt. Thoughts?


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1) I haven't modeled one against the other, so I am not the person to ask.

2) Yes, that can work, but it will not take into effect the 'cavity effects' of the depth of the manifold. Try and keep the manifold depth as shallow as possible.

3) I would certainly have them on separate channels, with independent delay. Once the delay is accounted for you can eq them both.

4) Yes, this thread has more information. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-ib-array.html


I have not used HornResp, so perhaps @ LTD02 can help you out on the modeling of the cavity effects.
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post #9 of 35 Old 02-26-2019, 08:50 PM
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Go Fi all the way! I have two IB318s in my rear riser firing into my back and they are awesome! Still planning on eventually adding another manifold with two more drivers in the ceiling(Will measure location using the sub in MLP and mic at the ceiling). The Fi drivers dish out buttery bass below 80Hz with ease.

I wouldn’t try to put mid bass duties on your IB. Let it specialize at what it does best down low. I also noticed the midbass didn’t have as much punch as I would like so I have 2 PSA S1510s en route and plan to add 1 more to sit under each PSA 210 doing LCR duties. I’ll start with the S1510s pushing up into the 150Hz range and adjust from there. That is getting more directional and in my opinion should be up front in the localizable position with you mains. Replace your PA460s with IB318s and move the PA460s up front to complement your LCRs for midbass duties.

Also I’m coming up with some good visuals of you sticking your head in the manifold and cranking up some tunes.


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post #10 of 35 Old 03-01-2019, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Infinite Baffle sub questions

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Originally Posted by Tyborg View Post
Go Fi all the way! I have two IB318s in my rear riser firing into my back and they are awesome! Still planning on eventually adding another manifold with two more drivers in the ceiling(Will measure location using the sub in MLP and mic at the ceiling). The Fi drivers dish out buttery bass below 80Hz with ease.

I wouldn’t try to put mid bass duties on your IB. Let it specialize at what it does best down low. I also noticed the midbass didn’t have as much punch as I would like so I have 2 PSA S1510s en route and plan to add 1 more to sit under each PSA 210 doing LCR duties. I’ll start with the S1510s pushing up into the 150Hz range and adjust from there. That is getting more directional and in my opinion should be up front in the localizable position with you mains. Replace your PA460s with IB318s and move the PA460s up front to complement your LCRs for midbass duties.

Also I’m coming up with some good visuals of you sticking your head in the manifold and cranking up some tunes.


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As much as I love AE speakers for their low distortion, I think you’re right about using Fi for sub-bass IB duties and using the PA460s up front.

By the way I don’t have the system on with my head in the baffle. I’m just saying it colors the ambient sound in the room, or your voice, and I was wondering if it does the same thing to frequencies coming from the manifold at the listening position.

Also another question I need answered: would there be any difference in performance if I mount the IB drivers with the cones facing the attic space and the guts inside the manifold / visible from underneath? If I do this would I need to reverse the polarity?

Minor detail: if I order the Fi with black dust cap sticker, does that mean they actually put a black “Fi” sticker on the dust cap or do they leave it unbranded? Black on black would look weird.

Keep coming up with more questions: Is the Behringer EP4000 still the go-to amp for the IB318? How many driver should I put on one channel? i.e. how much power should I feed each driver?


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post #11 of 35 Old 03-01-2019, 12:52 PM
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Infinite Baffle sub questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
As much as I love AE speakers for their low distortion, I think you’re right about using Fi for sub-bass IB duties and using the PA460s up front.



By the way I don’t have the system on with my head in the baffle. I’m just saying it colors the ambient sound in the room, or your voice, and I was wondering if it does the same thing to frequencies coming from the manifold at the listening position.



Also another question I need answered: would there be any difference in performance if I mount the IB drivers with the cones facing the attic space and the guts inside the manifold / visible from underneath? If I do this would I need to reverse the polarity?



Minor detail: if I order the Fi with black dust cap sticker, does that mean they actually put a black “Fi” sticker on the dust cap or do they leave it unbranded? Black on black would look weird.



Keep coming up with more questions: Is the Behringer EP4000 still the go-to amp for the IB318? How many driver should I put on one channel? i.e. how much power should I feed each driver?





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I think that's a great choice, obviously a little biased. Ah, I see about the manifolds, still got a kick out of the visuals LOL. I don't have my dual opposed manifold built yet so I can't give personal experience, my two drivers below are in an array configuration.



It does not matter which way the drivers are facing. I talked to Fi about this and the drivers are made to withstand temperatures in a car so either direction should be okay in your attic is what they told me. In my garage where the basket/magnet side of the driver generates its backwave it is just as powerful as on the side that the cone is facing. Either way I would check with a mic regarding polarity or phase to see if an adjustment can help, but I would by default not change the polarity based on which way the drivers face.



I'm not sure if they put a Fi sticker on the dust cap if you order black. I went down and reviewed changed my order at their shop to get them just the way I wanted and then picked them up locally since I live here. I have no sticker on my dust cap and can send a photo next time I get home of what they look like.



I think the EP4000 is a very common amp for these, but will need to get somebody else to chime in on that amp. I am using a beefy speakerpower sp2-4800 for my amp because I want those low single digit signals to be untouched and clean and gives me the chance to repurpose the amp if I want to. I got the 4ohm drivers and ran them in series to present an 8 Ohm load to my amp. Doubt anybody else is using them with this amp/configuration. I use a mini-dsp 2x4HD with some filters to protect the driver around 14Hz. I have "gently" bottomed it out in testing to find those filters and am still playing with filters vs a limiter in the mini-dsp to protect.

Edit: I would not adjust polarity based on the direction of the drivers in your manifold. Just run them and check with a mic and REW after to see if phase/delays need to be implemented after they are setup to correct cancellations or nulls.
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Almost forgot to add pics. No stickers just basic black dust cap.




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Quote:
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Almost forgot to add pics. No stickers just basic black dust cap.




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This firing into your back has to be absolutely awesome. Congrats on a great setup You probably don't need to crank the bass to feel satisfied, either.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
As much as I love AE speakers for their low distortion, I think you’re right about using Fi for sub-bass IB duties and using the PA460s up front.

By the way I don’t have the system on with my head in the baffle. I’m just saying it colors the ambient sound in the room, or your voice, and I was wondering if it does the same thing to frequencies coming from the manifold at the listening position.

Also another question I need answered: would there be any difference in performance if I mount the IB drivers with the cones facing the attic space and the guts inside the manifold / visible from underneath? If I do this would I need to reverse the polarity?

Minor detail: if I order the Fi with black dust cap sticker, does that mean they actually put a black “Fi” sticker on the dust cap or do they leave it unbranded? Black on black would look weird.

Keep coming up with more questions: Is the Behringer EP4000 still the go-to amp for the IB318? How many driver should I put on one channel? i.e. how much power should I feed each driver?


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I think the performance would be the same if the drivers were reversed, but I'm not sure why you do that. Anyway yes I'd reverse the polarity then, too. I have an EP4000. I run it bridged mono not per channel. It runs 4 15's with ease and could probably handle 8.

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post #15 of 35 Old 06-02-2019, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Follow up question on this... can anyone tell me from experience if it’s a bad idea to place an IB manifold in close proximity to a ceiling mounted projector? I have 3 option for my 4th IB location - 1) re-use the one in the center of the room where my Daytons came out, there’s a huge dip at 60hz and below, but it’s more near-field as it’s directly above seating, and there are 3 other manifolds that could even out the low bass. 2) about 1ft away from my projector, near the 1/4 points in the back corner, measured response is pretty good, or 3) just behind location 2, about 3ft away from projector, closer to back wall, bass response is still good but less room in attic to work with. My preference is location 2, but it’s pretty close to the projector, not sure if the direct near-field waves will cause a lot of vibration.
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post #16 of 35 Old 06-13-2019, 04:30 PM
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I’ve read nothing but great things about the AE IB line. They also model louder and lower than FI. Why does everyone prefer FI over AE?
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post #17 of 35 Old 06-13-2019, 05:11 PM
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I’ve read nothing but great things about the AE IB line. They also model louder and lower than FI. Why does everyone prefer FI over AE?
Maybe price? The FI's are at least $75 less per sub and a 10% discount can be had on four or more. Also there seems to be more completed builds with the IB3 V2's vs the IB18HT. At least from what I have seen. I will likely go with FI if I ever go ahead with my IB build mostly due to price/performance.
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post #18 of 35 Old 06-13-2019, 06:25 PM
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Louder per watt? Watts are cheap. Look at displacement per sub or better yet displacement per dollar.
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post #19 of 35 Old 06-13-2019, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
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For ultra low frequencies they have more excursion and more output down low. If you’re going strictly for all around sound quality and don’t mind slightly less output or willing to buy more drivers, the AE are likely better.


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post #20 of 35 Old 06-13-2019, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
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Maybe price? The FI's are at least $75 less per sub and a 10% discount can be had on four or more. Also there seems to be more completed builds with the IB3 V2's vs the IB18HT. At least from what I have seen. I will likely go with FI if I ever go ahead with my IB build mostly due to price/performance.
Standard price of FI 18" is $365 vs the AE at $350. FI's are currently discounted to $274. Is that a "sale" price, or do they typically stay that low?
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post #21 of 35 Old 06-13-2019, 09:00 PM
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I've never seen them at $365.
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post #22 of 35 Old 06-13-2019, 10:34 PM
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I've been keeping an eye on them for over a year and they have always been at the lower price.
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post #23 of 35 Old 06-13-2019, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryJeremy View Post
Standard price of FI 18" is $365 vs the AE at $350. FI's are currently discounted to $274. Is that a "sale" price, or do they typically stay that low?
Fi has been "on sale" at $274 since I first purchased in 2009.

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post #24 of 35 Old 06-13-2019, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
For ultra low frequencies they have more excursion and more output down low. If you’re going strictly for all around sound quality and don’t mind slightly less output or willing to buy more drivers, the AE are likely better.
Man the Fi's have double the xmax of the AE drivers (one way excursion). That's pretty significant. The AE drivers seem to have a VAS 2.5x the Fi's which means you'll need *a lot* more available air space per driver to keep in the VAS x 4 minimum for infinite baffle install.

Just look at the photo between the two. The Fi's look tons more beefy




It sounds like the AE supposedly are flatter lower than the Fi's but my Fi IB setup hits 5 hz *flat* so not sure how much lower you can get. The AE's will not have the headroom due to the low xmax so a big burst could cone them easily. You'd need a lot more AE's to give them the headroom needed to prevent that.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
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Last edited by markmon1; 06-13-2019 at 11:43 PM.
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post #25 of 35 Old 06-14-2019, 02:05 AM
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"Flatter" I assume is referring to the Fi inductance hump. For HT the Fi would be the better choice, if music and low distortion is a priority the AE would be better.
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post #26 of 35 Old 06-14-2019, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
"Flatter" I assume is referring to the Fi inductance hump. For HT the Fi would be the better choice, if music and low distortion is a priority the AE would be better.
It could be true that the Fi's have higher distortion than the AE, but I spend a lot of time listening to music in my room and the bass from my Fi IB array is so great that it has ruined all other subwoofers for me - for music. The bass is just so authoritative, deep, and clean sounding. If you're pushing the subs hard, I'd say you'd get more distortion from a driver nearing its xmax than a driver barely hitting half of its xmax at the same volume level.

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post #27 of 35 Old 06-14-2019, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
For ultra low frequencies they have more excursion and more output down low. If you’re going strictly for all around sound quality and don’t mind slightly less output or willing to buy more drivers, the AE are likely better.
Man the Fi's have double the xmax of the AE drivers (one way excursion). That's pretty significant. The AE drivers seem to have a VAS 2.5x the Fi's which means you'll need *a lot* more available air space per driver to keep in the VAS x 4 minimum for infinite baffle install.

Just look at the photo between the two. The Fi's look tons more beefy [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]




It sounds like the AE supposedly are flatter lower than the Fi's but my Fi IB setup hits 5 hz *flat* so not sure how much lower you can get. The AE's will not have the headroom due to the low xmax so a big burst could cone them easily. You'd need a lot more AE's to give them the headroom needed to prevent that.
That’s pretty much what I said. Except the AE is still a better driver as far as sq and distortion are concerned. The thing is, these are ULF subs, so most people aren’t as concerned about that as they are output and shaking the room.
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post #28 of 35 Old 06-14-2019, 07:26 AM
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Thanks for the input on FI's "sale" price. I was tempted to rush into purchasing since 25% is a nice chunk of change.
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post #29 of 35 Old 06-14-2019, 05:56 PM
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Just got my IB setup going today, 4 FI IB318 v2s and an NX6000D. I put mine all in one manifold on the side wall about 2 ft out from the corner. Just a quick run with no Audyssey or EQing whatsoever and these are ridiculous. TR is off the charts, I'm going to have to reinforce the wall and my projector mount too. Cant wait to get them properly setup.

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Marantz SR6011 * Outlaw Model 750 * M&K S-150 LCR * M&K SS-150 Surrounds * M&K 750 Back Surrounds * JBL In Ceiling Atmos * FI IB318v2 x4
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post #30 of 35 Old 06-14-2019, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lloyd401 View Post
Just got my IB setup going today, 4 FI IB318 v2s and an NX6000D. I put mine all in one manifold on the side wall about 2 ft out from the corner. Just a quick run with no Audyssey or EQing whatsoever and these are ridiculous. TR is off the charts, I'm going to have to reinforce the wall and my projector mount too. Cant wait to get them properly setup.

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Nice. I just installed 6 of the 8 of mine. I put only 2 in each manifold so I could have the benefit of multiple locations. But I tried to EQ using MSO, and it seemed to kill the bass. Maybe I’m doing something wrong. I just turned off all the adjustments and watched a movie. The Fi’s are shaking the attic access door like mad. Sounds like my house is falling down. (it’s just the door)

But I would really like to figure out how to dial these in properly.


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