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post #1 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Amp question for IB subs

I’m building four dual-opposed IB baffles into the ceiling using a total of 8 Fi IB318 v2. The only thing holding me back from ordering is whether I need 2 or 4 ohm.

From what I gather, the Behringer EP4000 is the best amp for these. (Please correct me if I’m wrong, open to looking at other amps.) EP4000 is 1200w x 2. The subs reach xmax with 600 watts at 20hz, 300 watts at 10hz. I will be using a MiniDSP 2x4 HD.

Now I can buy the 2 ohm version and build 2 manifolds (2 locations) with 4 subs each. That’s 300w per sub. I would time align and eq each amp channel separately.

Or I can buy the 4 ohm version and build 4 manifolds (4 locations) with 2 subs each. That’s 600w per sub on 2 EP4000 amps.

Option 1 means less amplifiers, $400 of amp per $2000 of sub and I can still drive them to xmax at 10hz. Option 2 means $800 of amp per $2000 of sub and I can drive them to xmax at 20hz but they will bottom out on 10hz if the movie has strong 10hz content and I don’t run a filter. I don’t really want to run a filter.

After looking at the charts in the forum showing bass signal levels in movies (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...cy-charts.html), most movies fall off pretty sharply below 20 hz, but some do not. And some movies have heavy 5hz signals, which means I would bottom out with more than 150 watts per driver (unless I run a filter).

Advantages of buying 4 ohm, 2 per manifold... More locations means better handling of room modes, and more consistent seat to seat response. Also as mentioned, most movies fall off below 20 hz, meaning for most movies, 600w would maximize the capabilities of the subs. For movies with strong 10hz content, I could filter below 20hz, or I could reduce overall sub channel, or I could reduce overall volume.

Kinda leaning toward running 2 amps and 4 ohm drivers. There’s not really any disadvantages other than cost and power requirements (maybe I need to add a 20 amp circuit). I was just trying to avoid excess spending and equipment in the rack if it’s not going to really benefit much.

I sort of answered my own questions here but anyone have any input?
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post #2 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 09:13 AM
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The EP4000 was measured to put out around 1800 watts bridged, 850 watts per channel into 2 ohms, 650 into 4 ohms, and 450 into 8 ohms. There is also room gain which reduce the need for power below 20hz. I used to run 8 Fi IB318s on one brdiged channel of a sanway clone amp just fine. Depending on the room size and your room gain I would not worry about the under 10hz stuff and limiters on IBs.
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post #3 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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The EP4000 was measured to put out around 1800 watts bridged, 850 watts per channel into 2 ohms, 650 into 4 ohms, and 450 into 8 ohms. There is also room gain which reduce the need for power below 20hz. I used to run 8 Fi IB318s on one brdiged channel of a sanway clone amp just fine. Depending on the room size and your room gain I would not worry about the under 10hz stuff and limiters on IBs.
Thanks for your input. I just ordered 4 ohm versions so I can run 2 per channel of any amp that gives max output at 2 ohms. Looks like the EP4000 doesn’t put out it’s rated power. 850 vice 1250 per channel.

I actually came back to ask about the Behringer NX6000D. Any word on it’s actual output?

What is a Sanway clone? What amp do you actually recommend?

Also why are you no longer running the Fi setup?
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post #4 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 10:03 AM
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My wall was too small for all 8. I am running RE XXX-18 now.

The Sanway is a Chinese clone of the lab gruppen 14k. There is a huge thread about the clones. The inuke 6000 puts out about 1200-1500 watts per channel from 5-80hz.
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post #5 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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My wall was too small for all 8. I am running RE XXX-18 now.

The Sanway is a Chinese clone of the lab gruppen 14k. There is a huge thread about the clones. The inuke 6000 puts out about 1200-1500 watts per channel from 5-80hz.
I'll look into the Sanway. Sounds like the iNuke (NU or new NX series) is roughly 50% more power per dollar than the EuroPower. Would you say the NX4-6000 for $500 would be a good match for 8x Fi IB318 v2 4-ohm? That's 4 manifolds/locations/channels, 2 subs each, 2 ohm per channel.

I'm thinking I could get close to 400 watts per sub out of it. That sound about right to you?
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post #6 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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By the way, where do you get these test results for Behringer amps?
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post #7 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Reading this Sanway thread now. VERY intriguing.
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post #8 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 12:18 PM
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Posting the answer I gave you to PM, in case anyone else is following along that cares

nx6000 is same as inuke nu6000. Max output from the amp is about 2400 watts total. It has maybe 1db of burst potential for short duration signals over that.

The ep4000 will output about 1500w total, again with maybe 1db of burst potential for short duration signals.

These were the ep4k test results with 2ch driven into 4 ohm loads.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post31675217

Do you have a minidsp or anything to correct output? If not, the inuke or nx series with built in dsp are pretty good.

I'd say run two 318s per channel off of an nu6k, but it does not support 2 ohm loads. If you were to run them at 8 ohms, you would not get full output, so scratch that off the list

You could roll the dice with clone amps... The FP20000 or FP14000 clones would do the trick if you have the power available. The FP20K can sustain 8kw total, and FP14K about 4-5kw. They can both burst to high power levels as well, so you need to be wary of the output.

The prolite 7.5 is also a good amp. There's a used one on ebay for 575... good deal. With 2 channels running at 4 ohms, it'll get you around 3600w total output with 1db of burst or so.

The crown xls2502 are also an option, though you'd need two of them. There are some used on ebay for 375 right now. Of all the options listed, these are the quietest if that matters, the others all have loud fans. They can support a 2 ohm load, and you'll get about 2400w total output, or 1200w per channel. This way you can run two drivers per channel at 2 ohms. You'll need a minidsp as well for these, since iirc, the dsp on them is basically useless.

So those are pretty much your options unless you want to spend a bunch more money on something like speakerpower.

I'd likely go with a pair of xls2502 and a minidsp in your scenario.
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post #9 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
nx6000 is same as inuke nu6000. Max output from the amp is about 2400 watts total. It has maybe 1db of burst potential for short duration signals over that.

The ep4000 will output about 1500w total, again with maybe 1db of burst potential for short duration signals.
What about the NX4-6000? 2 ohms stable per channel, I could feed each sub 300 watts and time align and eq all 4 IB locations separately using MiniDSP. $500. Maybe a little shy on power, but what do you think?

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Do you have a minidsp or anything to correct output? If not, the inuke or nx series with built in dsp are pretty good.
Yes, I have a MiniDSP 2x4 HD.

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I'd say run two 318s per channel off of an nu6k, but it does not support 2 ohm loads. If you were to run them at 8 ohms, you would not get full output, so scratch that off the list
It may not be too late to change my order to 2 ohm subs if I need to.

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You could roll the dice with clone amps... The FP20000 or FP14000 clones would do the trick if you have the power available. The FP20K can sustain 8kw total, and FP14K about 4-5kw. They can both burst to high power levels as well, so you need to be wary of the output.
I read part of your thread and looked into them a bit. I was wondering what the actual output would be. You're basically saying less than 50% with lots of burst available. By burst, do you mean a fraction of a second? Like good for kick drums, but not explosions in movies?

I really thought the FP1000Q looks intriguing. If it can output roughly 5kw, that's 625w each for 8 subs, and since it's 4 channels I can calibrate 4 sub locations. I would totally "roll the dice" because they're obviously a legit company. What do you think of this solution? How can I buy one?

Would the DSP model Sanway be as capable as a MiniDSP? (I already have a MiniDSP, but wondering for future HT build purposes, can MiniDSP be eliminated, or does it work better than built-in dsp?)

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The prolite 7.5 is also a good amp. There's a used one on ebay for 575... good deal. With 2 channels running at 4 ohms, it'll get you around 3600w total output with 1db of burst or so.
My concern with a single 2-channel is that I can't time align and EQ each location separately unless I have 2 amps. Am I looking at that correctly? Do I want one channel of amplification per manifold?

Also to that effect, correct to say the more locations the better? i.e. better to have 2 subs per manifold than 4? If that's the case, any amp that exceeds 1200 watts per channel may be a waste of $ and power. I think with 8 subs, I definitely think 4 locations is better than 2. If I went to 16 subs, I could do 8 locations (maybe quarter and half points all the way around the ceiling?) or I could stick with 4 quarter points, and place 4 subs per manifold. Then I could use up to 2400 watts per amp channel.

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The crown xls2502 are also an option, though you'd need two of them. There are some used on ebay for 375 right now. Of all the options listed, these are the quietest if that matters, the others all have loud fans. They can support a 2 ohm load, and you'll get about 2400w total output, or 1200w per channel. This way you can run two drivers per channel at 2 ohms. You'll need a minidsp as well for these, since iirc, the dsp on them is basically useless.
Sounds like you agree I need 600 watts per sub. So if the resistance load matched up to the NU6000, you think I'd need 2 of them. My goal should be 4800 watts total?

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So those are pretty much your options unless you want to spend a bunch more money on something like speakerpower.

I'd likely go with a pair of xls2502 and a minidsp in your scenario.
No, I don't want to spend a bunch more. This is supposed to be a cost effective high end theater.

I'm a bit too analytical, but I want to do this right.
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post #10 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 02:55 PM
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What about the NX4-6000? 2 ohms stable per channel, I could feed each sub 300 watts and time align and eq all 4 IB locations separately using MiniDSP. $500. Maybe a little shy on power, but what do you think?



Yes, I have a MiniDSP 2x4 HD.



It may not be too late to change my order to 2 ohm subs if I need to.



I read part of your thread and looked into them a bit. I was wondering what the actual output would be. You're basically saying less than 50% with lots of burst available. By burst, do you mean a fraction of a second? Like good for kick drums, but not explosions in movies?

I really thought the FP1000Q looks intriguing. If it can output roughly 5kw, that's 625w each for 8 subs, and since it's 4 channels I can calibrate 4 sub locations. I would totally "roll the dice" because they're obviously a legit company. What do you think of this solution? How can I buy one?

Would the DSP model Sanway be as capable as a MiniDSP? (I already have a MiniDSP, but wondering for future HT build purposes, can MiniDSP be eliminated, or does it work better than built-in dsp?)



My concern with a single 2-channel is that I can't time align and EQ each location separately unless I have 2 amps. Am I looking at that correctly? Do I want one channel of amplification per manifold?

Also to that effect, correct to say the more locations the better? i.e. better to have 2 subs per manifold than 4? If that's the case, any amp that exceeds 1200 watts per channel may be a waste of $ and power. I think with 8 subs, I definitely think 4 locations is better than 2. If I went to 16 subs, I could do 8 locations (maybe quarter and half points all the way around the ceiling?) or I could stick with 4 quarter points, and place 4 subs per manifold. Then I could use up to 2400 watts per amp channel.



Sounds like you agree I need 600 watts per sub. So if the resistance load matched up to the NU6000, you think I'd need 2 of them. My goal should be 4800 watts total?



No, I don't want to spend a bunch more. This is supposed to be a cost effective high end theater.

I'm a bit too analytical, but I want to do this right.
How many manifolds were you planning to make? Is there any reason you're going IB instead of ported? You're losing a huge amount of output potential because of that. I understand IB if you're trying to keep things stealth.

No point feeding them only 300w and leaving those 3db on the table, you should be able to get as much power to the subs as they can handle. If you have a minidsp already, a pair of xls2502 is likely the best option.

NU4-6000 can only output 2400w total, so no point having the 4 channels if it's underpowered. You'd need two of them, then cost increases and you might as well get the xls2502 which are better.

The fp10k is not the greatest for subs and is a bit underpowered for what you want, hence the fp14k or fp20k I mentioned. They can put out enough power for what you need and then some. I don't know how the DSP is on them, but I'd guess the mindsp is superior.
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post #11 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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How many manifolds were you planning to make? Is there any reason you're going IB instead of ported? You're losing a huge amount of output potential because of that. I understand IB if you're trying to keep things stealth.

No point feeding them only 300w and leaving those 3db on the table, you should be able to get as much power to the subs as they can handle. If you have a minidsp already, a pair of xls2502 is likely the best option.

NU4-6000 can only output 2400w total, so no point having the 4 channels if it's underpowered. You'd need two of them, then cost increases and you might as well get the xls2502 which are better.

The fp10k is not the greatest for subs and is a bit underpowered for what you want, hence the fp14k or fp20k I mentioned. They can put out enough power for what you need and then some. I don't know how the DSP is on them, but I'd guess the mindsp is superior.
4 manifolds, 2 drivers each. IB because it seems like everyone who experiences IB subs has nothing but praise, both how they sound, and the output and efficiency (easy to drive subs to xmax). And I guess there is the benefit of having them built into the attic. I wouldn't mind ported except I'd have to basically turn them into coffee tables and end tables.

The subs are rated at 600w for xmax at 20hz. Thermally they can do more, but there is no actual power rating because per IB application, it doesn't matter how much power they can take if they're going to bottom out at 20hz. The 300W I thought might be enough because that will drive them to xmax at 10hz - except that most movies roll off below 20.

Any idea what the 4-channel Sanway 10K amp should bench at? If I can get at least 500w per sub out of one of those, it might be a good way to go. But then, the Behringer and Crown amps are probably comparable for watt per dollar, so might as well stick with them.
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post #12 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Is XLS2502 really just as powerful as NU6000? I can get the NU6000 brand new for similar price. Is fan noise the only advantage?
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post #13 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 03:49 PM
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4 manifolds, 2 drivers each. IB because it seems like everyone who experiences IB subs has nothing but praise, both how they sound, and the output and efficiency (easy to drive subs to xmax). And I guess there is the benefit of having them built into the attic. I wouldn't mind ported except I'd have to basically turn them into coffee tables and end tables.

The subs are rated at 600w for xmax at 20hz. Thermally they can do more, but there is no actual power rating because per IB application, it doesn't matter how much power they can take if they're going to bottom out at 20hz. The 300W I thought might be enough because that will drive them to xmax at 10hz - except that most movies roll off below 20.

Any idea what the 4-channel Sanway 10K amp should bench at? If I can get at least 500w per sub out of one of those, it might be a good way to go. But then, the Behringer and Crown amps are probably comparable for watt per dollar, so might as well stick with them.
There's a bit of a cultish following for IB. They have many negatives, such as limited placement options, the back wave making noise in the rest of the house, limited power handling, etc. You could always fire a ported box through a manifold or a cutout as well. Efficiency is only a plus on the low frequency end of things, and even then, a ported enclosure is more efficient.

Basically a ported enclosure will give you 9-12 db additional output potential over the IB at it's tuning frequency. You'll have another 5-6db in the rest of the frequency range as well from the additional power handling.

The IB behaves like a very large sealed enclosure. You can hide them easily. Those are the pluses to IB.

You really should model this out if you're trying to get a lot of output on a budget.

Here's a quick example just using winisd. I don't know what the inductance rolloff on the ib3 will look like since they don't publish Le specs. I know the um18-22 has great inductance specs.

This is 8x fi ib3 v2 18s 4ohms in an IB with 4800 watts (blue) vs 8x um18-22 in ported enclosures tuned to 17hz (green) with double the power, though they can take even more.



I haven't bench tested an fp10k, but I believe you're looking at around 2500w output.

Last edited by notnyt; 03-08-2019 at 03:53 PM.
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post #14 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool. I guess the main issue then is space, and potentially the difference in sound quality, whatever that may be.

I’d like to purchase the amps tonight. Have you tested these XLS 2502 at 2400 watts continuous output?
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post #15 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/4...plifier-tests/

Looking here, the Behringer looks a good bit more powerful than the Crown. Of course that’s the 2500, not the 2502. Not sure the difference.
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post #16 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 05:06 PM
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http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/4...plifier-tests/

Looking here, the Behringer looks a good bit more powerful than the Crown. Of course that’s the 2500, not the 2502. Not sure the difference.
It's not, you're likely reading something wrong.
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post #17 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Crown, 2311 watts at 20hz, 312 watts at 5hz. Behringer, 2808 watts at 20hz, 2550 watts at 5hz.


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Crown, 2311 watts at 20hz, 312 watts at 5hz. Behringer, 2808 watts at 20hz, 2550 watts at 5hz.


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You're reading peak watts for the Behringer. The XLS2500 has rolloff down very low for sure, but it's in a range that doesn't really matter imo.
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post #19 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Crown, 2311 watts at 20hz, 312 watts at 5hz. Behringer, 2808 watts at 20hz, 2550 watts at 5hz.


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You're reading peak watts for the Behringer. The XLS2500 has rolloff down very low for sure, but it's in a range that doesn't really matter imo.
Pretty sure that’s per channel, and the crown is 1 channel bridged, the Behringer is 2. Not reading peak, just doubling because it’s per channel.
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Pretty sure that’s per channel, and the crown is 1 channel bridged, the Behringer is 2. Not reading peak, just doubling because it’s per channel.
No, it's aggregated in the graph.

The nu4-6000 cannot output more than about 2400 sustained. I've tested this.
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post #21 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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No, it's aggregated in the graph.



The nu4-6000 cannot output more than about 2400 sustained. I've tested this.


What do you mean aggregated in the graph? Chart says 1891 watts 1-channel driven, 1404 watts 2-channels driven. But that’s per channel, is it not?


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post #22 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I’m just trying to understand. Because that’s not what I’m seeing in his test. I understand you tested it, but I need to see results somewhere. I’m not saying you’re wrong necessarily.


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post #23 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 05:27 PM
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I’m just trying to understand. Because that’s not what I’m seeing in his test. I understand you tested it, but I need to see results somewhere. I’m not saying you’re wrong necessarily.


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I see what you're saying, but my tests do not agree there. I don't think luke has differential probes to test these amps properly in bridged mode.

These are my results for the nu4-6000 with a pair of bridged output channels. The amp is current limited at this state. This is total output power. It doesn't roll off like the xls2500 does.. I vaguely remember hearing that was changed in the xls2502, but not sure. Either way, the xls2502 is a better amp.

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post #24 of 85 Old 03-08-2019, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I would use the NX6000 2-channel, not the 4, but that’s all he had measured. I figured they have the same output. Not sure if the output below 10 will matter a while lot but it would be nice to know from experience instead of not knowing just because the amp quits at 10.
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post #25 of 85 Old 03-09-2019, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
I see what you're saying, but my tests do not agree there. I don't think luke has differential probes to test these amps properly in bridged mode.

These are my results for the nu4-6000 with a pair of bridged output channels. The amp is current limited at this state. This is total output power. It doesn't roll off like the xls2500 does.. I vaguely remember hearing that was changed in the xls2502, but not sure. Either way, the xls2502 is a better amp.

Hey @notnyt , off topic, but I've always had a question about your table. I've seen it before in the 6000 rundown thread but it was an old post so I didn't ask. Now I will

The Ipp numbers; are those real? Seems too high.
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post #26 of 85 Old 03-09-2019, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
Hey @notnyt , off topic, but I've always had a question about your table. I've seen it before in the 6000 rundown thread but it was an old post so I didn't ask. Now I will

The Ipp numbers; are those real? Seems too high.
If you see something weird, don't hesitate to point it out. It helps everyone and I'm not gonna be offended about it.

I did have a faulty current probe at some point, but this is one of the captures I have saved. Current is on bottom. Unfortunately, I didn't have input voltage graphing at the same time to check phase angle :/

Here's the output clipping with input current on bottom in blue

Assuming pf somewhere between 0.6-0.7 and low 90s efficiency, this checks out.


Last edited by notnyt; 03-09-2019 at 11:28 AM.
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post #27 of 85 Old 03-09-2019, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Ordered 2 XLS 2502.


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post #28 of 85 Old 03-09-2019, 12:45 PM
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Notnyt, I think the confusion is people thinking that 2000 watts at 5hz is per channel since it has two bridged channels. I do believe that is total power so divide by 2 for per channel, no?
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post #29 of 85 Old 03-09-2019, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Notnyt, I think the confusion is people thinking that 2000 watts at 5hz is per channel since it has two bridged channels. I do believe that is total power so divide by 2 for per channel, no?


No, I was referring to the link I posted above with the other guy who did testing. He posted 2800 watts total at 20 hz.


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post #30 of 85 Old 03-09-2019, 08:29 PM
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Which would be 1400 watts per channel at 20hz. Not much difference, you have to expect a little variance between rigs.
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