DIYSG Titan 615LX vs Boston Acoustics VR3 - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 262 Old 04-27-2019, 10:59 PM
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I agree with Stereodude. I doubt very seriously the op will have any issues selling the Titans. If the op prefers the sound of the Bostons over the Titans, then it is what it is

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post #122 of 262 Old 04-28-2019, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I have used the Audyssey app to EQ the Titans on the Marantz to try and mimic the top end of the Bostons as closely as I could, and I have left the Bostons natural on the Onkyo. You can see the results attached, first the EQ'd L & R of the Titan and then a refresher of what the natural Boston FR looked like.

The good news is that the Titans aren't dull anymore, this has given them a little more life and and some of the missing detail. The Bostons still have a clarity and airiness to them that isn't yet matched - perhaps more EQ and tweaks can get them even closer. Tonally though, the two sets of speakers are now pretty similar, enough so that I would think if one didn't have quick switching available, based on tonality, they could mistake the two speakers.

Now that there isn't such a gap in clarity and detail, the next thing you pick up on is the depth and width of the soundstage, with or without quick switching. When you listen to the Bostons, the width of sound extends beyond the outside edges of the speakers by a few feet, and the gap between the speakers is filled with sound as well. Within this width, let's call it 15', they can place specific sounds (instruments, vocals, whatever) almost anywhere they please. In terms of height, it's not as easily defined, as there isn't a lot of height panning in music, but to the best of my ability I would say the sound extends from a couple feet above the speaker and to about a foot above the ground. In terms of depth, they can layer sound from behind my screen to a few feet in front of the speakers - they do quite well in this. None of this is any "magic" so to speak, you can place sounds with your ears in the defined area pretty easily if you are listening carefully.

When you listen to the Titans (and perhaps this was by design), the bulk of the music sounds like it is coming from one of three places. Either a radius of sound around each speaker, or a wall approximately 3' centered in front of the speaker pair. I like to listen in the dark, but if you close your eyes with the lights on and point to where you think the left or right speaker is based on front soundstage width, and open your eyes, you will point right to the Titan every time. You will miss the Boston to the outside more often than not, they project w wider soundstage. Maybe this is the whole aim of the waveguides, to be a very direct point source, and maybe this is seen as a positive thing by some folks for movie watching. I still haven't gotten to movies yet, but I promise I will set that up tonight. For music, I do not interpret this as a positive, it takes away from the realism - the bigger the soundstage can be, the better. In terms of depth, some songs do well with the vocals being locked in 3' in front of the speakers, especially if it is a jazz number with a single vocalist. On other songs, this characteristic does not fare so well, especially when you switch speakers (quick switch or slow switch) and hear how the Bostons layer things. The best way to describe the effect of different layers is how when I said earlier the Bostons make certain songs more engaging, like they will make you want to move your feet or get up and clap to some of your favorites. Because the Titans keep things in one of those 3 spots, you lose that engagement. Again, maybe I completely missed the boat in terms of their design and this is how they are supposed to function. I knew waveguides focused the sound to reduce room interactions, but I did not interpret that to mean a more restricted soundstage width and depth.

I attached a picture that tries to show the relative soundstage sizes. Titans in blue, Bostons in red. The ovals in the middle represent the centered depth...an attempt at showing a Z axis bubble.
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post #123 of 262 Old 04-28-2019, 01:23 PM
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Try toeing them out more to try and widen the sound stage. Maybe try them facing straight forward.
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post #124 of 262 Old 04-28-2019, 02:40 PM
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I'm glad the EQ gave you the tonal balance you were looking for.



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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Again, maybe I completely missed the boat in terms of their design and this is how they are supposed to function. I knew waveguides focused the sound to reduce room interactions, but I did not interpret that to mean a more restricted soundstage width and depth.

I think their biggest benefit is providing a very similar sound over a wide area. There are plenty of "audiophile" type speakers that will exceed at providing the soundstage effects you're talking about, but also give a sort of "one person sweet spot," so if you have a row of multiple listeners the guy in the center seat gets a much different sound than the guy a couple seats to the left or right. I don't know how your VR3s do in that respect, but it may be something you want to test for if it's important to you.



I've found that setting up the front speakers to maximize the effect of soundstage depth and width (pulling them significantly into the room, toe setting, etc) is of much less importance for movies/multi-channel music as the depth and width (which is actually in the mix) created by the fronts and surrounds easily trumps what any two speakers can try to do on their own. At that point covering all the seats so everybody gets a similar sound becomes the more important factor (for me, anyway).
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post #125 of 262 Old 04-28-2019, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I will toe them out so they face straight forward this evening - finishing up more landscaping.

Jon AA - how would a multichannel song yield more depth if not by the mains and perhaps center? In other words, if the Titans are locked in 3 feet ahead of themselves, how would i ever get something 1 foot behind them or 6 feet in front of them?
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post #126 of 262 Old 04-28-2019, 05:15 PM
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Unfortunately the science behind that goes beyond my paygrade, not something I've studied in depth. There are some pro mixers who post on the forum who could probably better and more accurately describe the tools they use when simulating depth and width (even for two channel recording) and how they work (phase manipulation, added reverb, delays, etc). But clearly with multi-channel they have more tools to work with and your system has more tools to work with when reproducing it.


I've sort of been on a kick lately looking for live music recorded specifically for multichannel or 3D (Atmos, Auro3D) where microphones pick up the effects natively (real reverb & delay vs simulated added later, etc). I know when listening to these recordings in 2 channel stereo mode, it sounds good...but no matter how well the fronts are set up trying to simulate the 3D sound, when you click that button for multi-channel there's just no comparison. The speakers just disappear and you get a feeling of actually being in the venue listening to the concert in a way two speakers just can't do.


Anyway, that's just for music where multi-channel is obviously the minority of content. For movies, they're all mixed with multi-channel in mind and have no problem giving you that immersion, so compromising on other aspects of front speaker choice and setup (coverage for multiple listeners, dynamics, speech intelligibility, fitting into the room layout, etc) in search of better two channel soundstaging probably isn't worthwhile for watching movies in my opinion. Anyway, those are just my thoughts and why I'm pursuing the DIYSG path where they excel in the latter per dollar spent vs. more audiophile aimed speakers which may or may not have an advantage in the former but typically compromise the latter in some manor (especially for dollars spent).
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post #127 of 262 Old 04-28-2019, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Did you join the forum specifically to reply to this thread? If you are a DIYSG supporter, thats great, i have no issue with them and what they are offering is very nice, but this comparison reaffirms my skepticism in this hobby and i would highly suggest you listen first.
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post #128 of 262 Old 04-28-2019, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Im sitting here listening to the Titans pointed straight ahead, no toe in. The center image depth moved back a bit, its about 1 foot in front of the speakers now instead of 3. The soudstage width has not changed, nor has the inability to image in locations between the speakers with the exception of the center spot 1 foot out in front.

They dont sound bad by any means, the tone is very nice. It is slightly comical though listening to songs and the sound is only coming from 3 specific areas.

Now to get the system back into 11.2.4 mode with Titans as LCR.
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post #129 of 262 Old 04-28-2019, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Did you join the forum specifically to reply to this thread?
Heh, certainly not. I've followed this forum for many years and since formulating my plan (which I believe to be pretty well thought out but is still subject to change) to build more than 20 speakers in the next couple of years I had long planned to jump in and participate specifically in this section to learn what I can and help out where I can. This thread just happened to be the first to peak my interest enough to do so as I thought I could offer some clarification on some subjects better than you may get without.



Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy reading threads in the other sections and have learned much, but the more interesting (to me, anyway) threads tend to blow up into hundreds of posts pretty quickly largely aided by non-value added posts of specific individuals. I used to really enjoy that sort of thing 20 years ago but simply don't have the time to spare to do it these days.
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post #130 of 262 Old 04-28-2019, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Only managed to get the center in tonight - had to find something to lift the waveguide up off the subs below the screen high enough to be at ear level then put the woofer bin upside down. It does look menacing, ill give it that. Should be smoother sailing on the L and R.
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post #131 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 04:36 AM
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"Menacing" is a good word for it. Or "Awesome". Nice screen-wall!
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post #132 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

I knew waveguides focused the sound to reduce room interactions, but I did not interpret that to mean a more restricted soundstage width and depth.
Just throwing it out, it may not help soundstage at all, but you mentioned you are in a heavily treated room...

it was alluded to earlier in another response, but wide dispersion and diffusion helps create spaciousness to the sound. The controlled directivity is really beneficial when you can't treat 1st reflections, etc. and have excess energy... If you are absorbing a lot of reflections in your treated room (likely since your Bostons are wide dispersion and likely benefit), it might be "adding insult to injury" with the Titans...

Where I'm really going, is that the more I've read up on room treatments, it sounds like the treatment plan isn't just dependent on the room, but almost more about the power response of your speakers. Meaning, ideally you'd look at the power response graphs on a polar plot to figure out how much energy and at what frequencies you need to absorb or diffuse to shape what gets to your primary listening position(s). With a CD design, you might actually want to remove all sidewall treatments, and/or replace them with diffusion treatments to help with imaging because they likely put very little energy into the sidewalls... The Bostons wouldn't react well to that, hence a different treatment plan.

Basically this is a variation of a previous post called.... match the speakers to the room (or the room to the speakers...)

Will that make the Titans image like a boss if you totally change the room? no clue! I'm glad this thread hasn't derailed as well... thanks to everyone for keeping it classy...

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post #133 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 10:08 AM
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The Titans do have a small amount of downward tilt to the response though they weren't designed with as much as they seem to measure in your room. I find a perfectly flat response to be way too bright especially as the volume increases.

If you don't mind experimenting (this is the DIY forum after all) I'd place a 10-15 ohm resistor (Can be 5-10w) in parallel with the existing 15ohm resistor (the one closer to the outside/edge of the crossover board). That should bring the high frequencies (above 2k) up closer to how the Boston's measure in your room. If you want to reduce the rolloff seen above 10k add a 1.5uF capacitor in parallel as well.
CD horn compensation?

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post #134 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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If one would need to plan room treatments around a speaker with such a waveguide - as in avoid or minimize absorption panels because the soundstage is too narrow - my personal take would be to not buy a speaker with such a waveguide. The issue would be the speaker and not the treatments, because you NEED absorption in a room that will also be used for movies with 15 speakers.

Im trying to give the Titans every chance i can, but i dont think its reasonable to say avoid absorption panels in your theater because their soundstage width is too narrow. I think its more reasonable and beneficial to say make a waveguide with wider sound dispersion, but just my opinion.
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post #135 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
If one would need to plan room treatments around a speaker with such a waveguide - as in avoid or minimize absorption panels because the soundstage is too narrow - my personal take would be to not buy a speaker with such a waveguide. The issue would be the speaker and not the treatments, because you NEED absorption in a room that will also be used for movies with 15 speakers.

Im trying to give the Titans every chance i can, but i dont think its reasonable to say avoid absorption panels in your theater because their soundstage width is too narrow. I think its more reasonable and beneficial to say make a waveguide with wider sound dispersion, but just my opinion.
Totally understand your thought process Steve. That said, every speaker design has different dispersion characteristics... domes disperse differently than a ribbon or AMT or RAAL or planar... and there are lots of good designs with all those types of drivers. just like in pro sound, you match the speakers, room, and treatment plan for a certain design goal... Ribbons and AMT/RAAL tweeters have narrow vertical dispersion and help with ceiling/floor bounce...

I don't have Titans, nor do I have any reason to want them to "win". Instead, I was trying to point out that just like room correction having certain targets that might not be for everyone, certain room treatment plans aren't best for everyone either...

I don't have any links, but there is another very active thread that Dr. Toole and others are participating in talking about what makes a good loudspeaker, and room treatments came up a while ago... and the result of that discussion seemed to be that there isn't a universal answer on what constitutes the best way to treat a room (mix of diffusion, reflection, absorption, etc.) and that it depends on the speaker and room together so to speak... at least that's what I took out of it! lol

If anything, your experiments have me thinking a more traditional design might be best for me in the new theater! (coming from Paradigm Studio's I bought in 1997)

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post #136 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
If one would need to plan room treatments around a speaker with such a waveguide - as in avoid or minimize absorption panels because the soundstage is too narrow - my personal take would be to not buy a speaker with such a waveguide. The issue would be the speaker and not the treatments, because you NEED absorption in a room that will also be used for movies with 15 speakers.
That mentality goes against most of what I know about applying efficient room treatments... You don't just toss treatments up in a room, you get your audio system setup and then you see where you need treatments.

Quick Analogy: I don't set the dimmers on my lights to exactly a certain level before I turn them on, for example, as I'm not sure how the light will look in a given room. Different paint colors and finishes, different ceiling heights, pre-existing light levels and colors all play into it. Even if I use the same light bulb in my basement, and I know I like the dimmer set at 75% for my preferred light level, I won't expect the same light bulb upstairs to be at the 75% dimmer level... I play on adjusting it to match the application.
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post #137 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Well certainly you dont just toss up treatments. Common rules in a theater the size of mine, as ive come to understand it, are absorption panels at the speaker first reflection points, approximately 40% of wall surfaces treated, and approximately 3 or 4:1 absorption to diffusion. As the room gets bigger, the ratio shifts towards diffusion over absorption. My room is 15.5 x 27.5 x 9.

Im good with the concept of designing treatments around your particular equipment, the point i was trying to make was that main speakers that would necessitate avoiding absorption panels are a no go because there are still 13 other speakers in the room you have to worry about. In any home theater thats not enormous, absorption is essentially mandatory for coherent sound with a multichannel surround sound system.
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You don't just toss treatments up in a room
Not sure where this was implied

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post #139 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 11:51 AM
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While the specific equipment does matter for treatment, its minimal in comparison to the room itself and what is the "typical" configuration the room allows for. I certainly think its way OOB thinking of changing the treatments.

I have heard the titans several times in one specific configuration- eng399s dedicated theater. We did not spend a lot of time listening to the finer elements of music, honestly, we were all there 90% for movies in that particular situation - the dedicated room. I believe there is little or no toe used and we sat about 20 feet from them.

I own htm12s with a 15" waveguide. Ive tested endlessly and we even did informal tests at engs, the directivity control is remarakbly good and provides a huge horizontzal sweet spot. the vertical is intentionally restricted, far less than say most klipsch are designed for.

Imo, you have done the yeomans job of testing them. 👏

I tend to think the directivity control is your main beef. Once you used audyssey you got similar tone, but not the same sense of spaciousness and depth.

In my heavily treated theater my HTMs are toed almost exactly how the one semi-famous paper here at avs said to do it....in front of the MLP.

ive tested every possibility, and in my space the best SEAT TO SEAT consistency by far is how I toe them. Best imaging for stereo sound at the MLP is almost certainly toe'd traditionally to the MLP or slightly behind.

It makes for a difficult assertion on my part to say my choice of toe in is right, when the speaker designer himself posted in this thread that may be too much.

All that said, there are multiple waveguides on the titans which complicates an analysis quite a bit. I dont own them, otherwise I would have tested them to death like most things 👍

My purpose in buying the big waveguide speakers was....to learn about and hopefully appreciate their abilities. As a 97% movie watcher they are likely unbeatable even against a top end jbl for my purpose.

Consider again why you bought the titans...if it is for pure sound quality at the mlp then you may have reached your conclusion rather clearly (imo). If you are curious about what the waveguides can do, you may appreciate the design more in that regard.

I admit, I do not test thoroughly for music. I have listened to several 100 hrs of music on them, but nothing compared to a few thousand watching movies....so your original assertion about the reviews we all have done may be correct.

It makes more obvious to me we have great home theater reviews, and not as many music reviews. We all have listened to music on them and most prefer diy to our other options, but we really dont have a lot of thorough music comparisons.

This thread has been a great idea and success imo.
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post #140 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Well certainly you dont just toss up treatments. Common rules in a theater the size of mine, as ive come to understand it, are absorption panels at the speaker first reflection points, approximately 40% of wall surfaces treated, and approximately 3 or 4:1 absorption to diffusion. As the room gets bigger, the ratio shifts towards diffusion over absorption. My room is 15.5 x 27.5 x 9.

Im good with the concept of designing treatments around your particular equipment, the point i was trying to make was that main speakers that would necessitate avoiding absorption panels are a no go because there are still 13 other speakers in the room you have to worry about. In any home theater thats not enormous, absorption is essentially mandatory for coherent sound with a multichannel surround sound system.
I agree with ya.

I was just saying that I think I read Dr. Toole say recently that some newer testing and research might be implying that the older wisdom isn't necessarily true. I cant recall the exact amounts, but it seemed like absorption might be much less recommended... anyway, regardless I think most rooms can use some absorption treatments.

That said, CD designs necessarily would use a different treatment plan as they are designed to disperse their sound power differently than a traditional speaker (typical box with dome/ribbon). An omni-directional design or open baffle or electrostatic/planar design would also necessitate a different treatment plan as well since they deliver their sound power in a different pattern...

the reality is CD designs aren't the norm in the home (especially in Hi-Fi)...

And again, i'm really glad no one is taking anything personally, it certainly isn't intended to be and I think this discussion has helped me tremendously in understanding what I might actually be looking for in an upgrade. Can't thank Steve enough for his time listening to all of us!

-j
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post #141 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 12:00 PM
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I agree with Stereodude. I doubt very seriously the op will have any issues selling the Titans. If the op prefers the sound of the Bostons over the Titans, then it is what it is
This. It is getting to be a bit comical that almost everybody else in this thread is trying to convince the op he’s somehow mistaken.

It very well could be that the BA VR2s are just really good speakers, and the thing the op likes about them (imaging and the way they naturally behave in his room) are actually better to him and more important than the strengths offered by the Titans(imposing looks, flat anechoic response and ungodly efficiency and max spl).

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post #142 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 12:15 PM
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EDIT: My bad - I didn't see the conversation above this since your last post! I got up to get a cup of coffee, got sucked into a phone call, and bam... there is a novel I missed. Looks like you guys already talked about sound treatments enough, and then some. I'll remove my (largely repetitive novel).

Also, just to clarify, when I said "You don't just toss sound treatments up", I intended it to be a bit tongue and cheek, and when quoted out of context definitely sounds offensive. Sorry about that.

Last edited by Heide264; 04-29-2019 at 12:36 PM. Reason: Preventing more beating of a dead horse
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post #143 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
While the specific equipment does matter for treatment, its minimal in comparison to the room itself and what is the "typical" configuration the room allows for. I certainly think its way OOB thinking of changing the treatments.

I have heard the titans several times in one specific configuration- eng399s dedicated theater. We did not spend a lot of time listening to the finer elements of music, honestly, we were all there 90% for movies in that particular situation - the dedicated room. I believe there is little or no toe used and we sat about 20 feet from them.

I own htm12s with a 15" waveguide. Ive tested endlessly and we even did informal tests at engs, the directivity control is remarakbly good and provides a huge horizontzal sweet spot. the vertical is intentionally restricted, far less than say most klipsch are designed for.

Imo, you have done the yeomans job of testing them. 👏

I tend to think the directivity control is your main beef. Once you used audyssey you got similar tone, but not the same sense of spaciousness and depth.

In my heavily treated theater my HTMs are toed almost exactly how the one semi-famous paper here at avs said to do it....in front of the MLP.

ive tested every possibility, and in my space the best SEAT TO SEAT consistency by far is how I toe them. Best imaging for stereo sound at the MLP is almost certainly toe'd traditionally to the MLP or slightly behind.

It makes for a difficult assertion on my part to say my choice of toe in is right, when the speaker designer himself posted in this thread that may be too much.

All that said, there are multiple waveguides on the titans which complicates an analysis quite a bit. I dont own them, otherwise I would have tested them to death like most things 👍

My purpose in buying the big waveguide speakers was....to learn about and hopefully appreciate their abilities. As a 97% movie watcher they are likely unbeatable even against a top end jbl for my purpose.

Consider again why you bought the titans...if it is for pure sound quality at the mlp then you may have reached your conclusion rather clearly (imo). If you are curious about what the waveguides can do, you may appreciate the design more in that regard.

I admit, I do not test thoroughly for music. I have listened to several 100 hrs of music on them, but nothing compared to a few thousand watching movies....so your original assertion about the reviews we all have done may be correct.

It makes more obvious to me we have great home theater reviews, and not as many music reviews. We all have listened to music on them and most prefer diy to our other options, but we really dont have a lot of thorough music comparisons.

This thread has been a great idea and success imo.
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post #144 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 01:09 PM
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I don't see how a speaker which has narrow enough directivity to not have 1st reflection points would be effected by 1st reflection point treatments, they should not matter at all.
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post #145 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 02:03 PM
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I thought it was pretty well accepted that room treatments for a 2 channel music listening room are going to be quite different than those for a multi-channel/movie room (for many of the same reasons I was describing different speaker attributes take on different levels of importance).


I'm reminded of an interview of Dennis Erskine (designer/installer of $100K+++ home theaters) where he flat out called the two "incompatible" and explained why. Here's the interview, this particular question is around the 55 minute mark:





Now, "incompatible" might be a bit harsh as I expects he sets the performance bar for his clients a few notches higher than I'll ever hope to achieve spending mere pennies... But the reasons he describes sound pretty valid to me. Anyway, it's pretty clear he wouldn't think two channel music listening is a good indicator of performance for a multi-channel system.
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post #146 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I don't see how a speaker which has narrow enough directivity to not have 1st reflection points would be effected by 1st reflection point treatments, they should not matter at all.
Directivity or dispersion isn't a sharp cutoff at a speaker's rated coverage angle, it's measured as the point off axis at which the SPL is down 6dB from its on axis response. You still have sound radiating out towards the sides it's just reduced in output.

A speaker that exhibits directivity control will exhibit reduced spatial reflections since more the sound is focused forward then a conventional speaker. This is helpful in untreated spaces where it gives you a higher ratio of direct vs. reflected sound and can help with clarity and intelligibility. Constant directivity designs are designed so that as you move off axis the output is reduced evenly across the frequency range resulting in an even response off axis that closely matches the on axis response just at lower level. The benefit is that you can aim such speakers in a way that results in more consistent coverage of SPL and response at all the seating.

If a space already has heavy absorption the reflected energy which is often what provides the sense of spaciousness and sound field will from a speaker with good directivity control be reduced further masking that effect.
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post #147 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 02:20 PM
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Yeah, I understand, but he is putting mulitchannel speakers in a multichannel room and listening to music which is said to be better than the opposite.

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post #148 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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@Utopianemo - im still willing to see how they do with movies before i throw in the towel. I cant AB with movies like i can with music though, so my acoustic memory will really be put to the test. My personal opinion is that a speaker that sounds better with music will sound better with movies too, but who knows, maybe the narrower soundstage of the Titans with music as a con will be interpretted as better directivity/channel separation with movies as a pro.

For reference, i use my theater about 60% movies, 30% music, and just recently 10% games - realistically i dont have much time anymore to play videogames, but Ace Combat in the theater on the 142” screen with the BOSS system under the chair is pretty amazing.
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post #149 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 04:40 PM
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My point regarding treatments was just that he should not change his room for the speakers. There is no doubt as Erskine suggests, rooms should be treated with their purpose in mind. Mine is heavily treated as a result of 97% movies being my focus. My other is untreated for music.
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post #150 of 262 Old 04-29-2019, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Man what a pain it is setting all this stuff up from scratch again. The base 7.2.4 is calibrated in the Marantz, so tomorrow i just need to do the wides (now the VR3s), top fronts, and BOSS subs through the Onkyo, then i should be all set to watch a movie.

Titan off axis (left speaker from my right seat) top end drops of REALLY steep - steep enough that you have to use Audyssey all the way to 20khz or else you will lose a ton of detail. I hope for their own sake the other owners are. If not, and they dont hear a lack of detail, i guess ignorance is bliss.
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