DIYSG Titan 615LX vs Boston Acoustics VR3 - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 261 Old 04-29-2019, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
i have no issue with them and what they are offering is very nice, but this comparison reaffirms my skepticism in this hobby
I hope you aren't reducing the hobby to the sound you got in your room using a single speaker.

I personally was not happy with compression drivers until I got a beryllium unit and can now say nothing else compares. The BMS 4550 was grainy in comparison. The Titan is a collection of bargain parts assembled by a top shelf designer but it still in no way demonstrates the state of the art in DIY loudspeaker design. DIYSG has milestone products that while they sound great at a price point, doesn't offer any extreme designs that use the best possible parts.

As far as wave guides, I have never heard a better sound stage. Wave guides are supposed to cross at a point in front of the listener to improve the sweet spot over conventional designs. They don't get pointed at the listener
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post #152 of 261 Old 04-29-2019, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
lIn any home theater thats not enormous, absorption is essentially mandatory for coherent sound with a multichannel surround sound system.
Nope, not by a long shot. The padding just kills sound quality while making the room an eyesore.

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post #153 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 04:21 AM - Thread Starter
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@SpinMonster - my comment about skepticism had nothing to do with diy speakers and everything to do with a particular product that has received nothing but amazing, glowing reviews from owners. Blows my old speakers out of the water, not even a comparison, and they are just clearer are some of the comments that stick in my head, and not by a magazine or the seller, but true owners on here. The question is - compared to what? Almost any speaker in a vacuum compared to nothing else sounds good. Hell, a car sound system sounds good if thats all you know, as music generally makes people happy. I did this test specifically because i havent seen anyone else do it, and when auditioning speakers to buy for your system, its the only way to know for sure what sounds best.
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post #154 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
@SpinMonster - my comment about skepticism had nothing to do with diy speakers and everything to do with a particular product that has received nothing but amazing, glowing reviews from owners. Blows my old speakers out of the water, not even a comparison, and they are just clearer are some of the comments that stick in my head, and not by a magazine or the seller, but true owners on here. The question is - compared to what? Almost any speaker in a vacuum compared to nothing else sounds good. Hell, a car sound system sounds good if thats all you know, as music generally makes people happy. I did this test specifically because i havent seen anyone else do it, and when auditioning speakers to buy for your system, its the only way to know for sure what sounds best.
So you went into this with a bias to prove they weren't as good as everyone suggested, and *gasp* shockingly */gasp* have come to that conclusion in sighted testing? Say it ain't so..
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post #155 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 05:12 AM - Thread Starter
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How did you possibly reach that conclusion? Ive been wanting these Titans for over a year, on paper they seem like they should be an amazing speaker. In my theater thread, I’ve posted several times about how I couldn’t wait to get Titans in my system. But I’m never going to just throw a pair of speakers in my system and not try to establish some frame of reference, and I’m never going to let the time, energy, and cost of said speakers possibly bias me into preferring them if they dont truly sound better. Unfortunately for me, sound quality is not a major strong point with these Titans in my opinion.
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post #156 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
So you went into this with a bias to prove they weren't as good as everyone suggested, and *gasp* shockingly */gasp* have come to that conclusion in sighted testing? Say it ain't so..
Come on man, surely you don't believe this The cost, work, and time he's put into this project only to make a contrarian point Would anyone question his findings and motives if he concluded the Titans blew away his Boston VR3

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post #157 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
@SpinMonster - my comment about skepticism had nothing to do with diy speakers and everything to do with a particular product that has received nothing but amazing, glowing reviews from owners. Blows my old speakers out of the water, not even a comparison, and they are just clearer are some of the comments that stick in my head, and not by a magazine or the seller, but true owners on here. The question is - compared to what? Almost any speaker in a vacuum compared to nothing else sounds good. Hell, a car sound system sounds good if thats all you know, as music generally makes people happy. I did this test specifically because i havent seen anyone else do it, and when auditioning speakers to buy for your system, its the only way to know for sure what sounds best.
I am right there with you on this point.
I have done 3 pairs of DIY speakers now, one was a complete let down, one blew me away, and one is very good but in comparison to the glowing reviews I feel its only ok.

Not surprisingly, the ones that blew me away don't have every other person hyping them and saying they are the best things ever, they are also super budget and cost wise the commercial products typically don't have a proper crossover. The complete letdown was still a lower priced build but when factoring in all costs I had a good comparison for a commercial offering on hand, and surprisingly (or not) the DIY project, while not bad, was also not better, despite droves of people saying they are amazing and compare with options 2-5x the cost. The last ones, I honestly feel that I set my own expectations to high, they had a reasonable expense behind them and all the reviews are nothing but glowing and don't get critical.

I think the level of detail your sharing here is great, it makes it easier to get a feel for what someone could actually expect from the Titans. As lots have also said I am looking forward to your commentary with some movie material.
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post #158 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
How did you possibly reach that conclusion? Ive been wanting these Titans for over a year, on paper they seem like they should be an amazing speaker. In my theater thread, I’ve posted several times about how I couldn’t wait to get Titans in my system. But I’m never going to just throw a pair of speakers in my system and not try to establish some frame of reference, and I’m never going to let the time, energy, and cost of said speakers possibly bias me into preferring them if they dont truly sound better. Unfortunately for me, sound quality is not a major strong point with these Titans in my opinion.

Because everyone has a bias, everyone. I thought your Boston VR series sounded cheap and tinny, so did my dad. That's why hes never changed from their T series... we both also think the Titans are better then the Bostons at EVERYTHING...

We did blind A/B testing to help remove our bias towards what speakers we liked best, did you? Otherwise your love for the VR3s and its signature sound is skewing you.

If you did blind test them, good for you, there is nothing wrong with picking what you like best. Everyone hears things different. That doesnt mean that your Bostons are better, just means you prefer them. This is probably why Erich at diysoundgroup.com doesnt like adding subjective reviews...
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post #159 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 08:08 AM
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Wow.

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post #160 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
@SpinMonster - my comment about skepticism had nothing to do with diy speakers and everything to do with a particular product that has received nothing but amazing, glowing reviews from owners. Blows my old speakers out of the water, not even a comparison, and they are just clearer are some of the comments that stick in my head, and not by a magazine or the seller, but true owners on here. The question is - compared to what? Almost any speaker in a vacuum compared to nothing else sounds good. Hell, a car sound system sounds good if thats all you know, as music generally makes people happy. I did this test specifically because i havent seen anyone else do it, and when auditioning speakers to buy for your system, its the only way to know for sure what sounds best.
Ive been reading this thread and at first I was thinking the same as I believe most others were thinking. "What? How can he say the BA VR3 is "better" than the Titan?!!!!", but I now realize that, not only are we comparing two different "tools", but we are comparing them between two different "jobs" as well. Not to mention, people are just going to have their own preference for what THEY like.

The Titan is an awesome speaker. Ive heard it in a couple different setups. It does a lot of things better than most of the other DIYSG designs but let's be honest, it is not the end-all-be-all in HiFi, nor was it designed to be.

I wonder if something like the Helix Dome MTM or even the Apollo MTM might be more to your liking. They would give you more of that ambient/HiFi sound it sounds like you prefer. I have a pair of Helix Dome MT's and they sound really good but I would choose the HT-8's over them for theater duty any day.

No speaker can be all things to all people in all environments. Steve said from the very beginning that he doesnt listen at the levels that really take advantage of what the Titan offers so I dont think any of this changes how good the Titan is for what it was designed for. It just means Steve "prefers" the sound of his VR3's. Nothing wrong with that!
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post #161 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 09:03 AM
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Man... This thread...

Guys, different ears prefer different sounds. In his room, with his treatments, he prefers the Bostons... and that's okay. This is clearly not some huge conspiracy to hold the DIY speaker down.

Is it possible that he may have preferred the titans if the treatments weren't targeting the abilities of the bostons (and possibly taking too much away from the titans in the process)? Absolutely. It's a huge possibility. Does that mean he has to redo the entirety of his room's treatments to appease our need to see a DIY kit always be the favorite? No. It doesn't. While yes, it would be a good idea, that is asking a lot of someone, for what he may find has no pay-off. If his ear prefers the sonic signature of the boston's, he may very well not end up loving the titans.

That said, his imaging complaints does scream that the treatments very well may be the issue (or a cross-over issue). If there's one thing the wave guide horns are known for its having a fantastic image, especially in a treated room. It's all up to him though if chasing the tiger is worth that level of effort to achieve. Best way to verify that would be to take the entire room out of the equation. Haul the speakers outside, see which he thinks sounds better when reflections are taken entirely out of the picture. If he still feels the boston sounds better there, then that's the end of the road.
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post #162 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 09:26 AM
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I don't see how a speaker which has narrow enough directivity to not have 1st reflection points would be effected by 1st reflection point treatments, they should not matter at all.
Isn't that the other reason (besides time/intensity tradeoff) for the advice (with CD speakers) to cross the speaker axis in front of the MLP? The 1st reflection point is then located on the *opposite* side wall. By having to travel across the room this reflection becomes delayed by at least 10ms. Later reflections are beneficial and improve "spaciousness. And by having them come from the opposite side of the listener's head than the direct sound from the same speaker, there is less IACC. Since these reflections are desirable, you don't want to hang absorbers on the walls at those points. Maybe that was a factor in why the OP didn't prefer the Titans with strong toe-in?

Toole makes the point several times in his book that reflections can be more helpful than harmful. He also points out that recording engineers prefer few reflections, while recreational "hi fi" listeners (who the engineers are presumably engineering for) prefer a good amount of room reflections. So how to deal with reflections can be as much a matter of preference as the situation. It seems the *usual* 1st reflection points (on the wall nearest the speaker) are commonly dealt with either by total absorption or diffusion, take your pick...

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post #163 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 09:47 AM
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All speakers will create reflections...the goal is to reduce their intensity especially in a theater environment

when i reviewed my htm12s,i did a very thorough comparison to Klipsch, a brand i know well. i totally agree with steve, subjective tests are very important.

please dont criticize his observations gents, hes working hard to learn about them. suggestions, ideas, comments are great but nothing should get personal.

when klipsch rubberized their horn waveguides it greatly improved the high end...exactly howand why i dont know,but it is clearly there

anyway, in my heavily treated room i can get a flat response from my htm12s, at least to 18k and w correction to 20k. personally i cant hear well above 14 or 15k, but i understand there are harmonics at play and they matter.

can anyone help steve get a flat response in room now? that seems constructive....my 2c now is try a very close measurement to see if it is even producing the highest frequencies.
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post #164 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 10:06 AM
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Titan off axis (left speaker from my right seat) top end drops of REALLY steep - steep enough that you have to use Audyssey all the way to 20khz or else you will lose a ton of detail. I hope for their own sake the other owners are. If not, and they dont hear a lack of detail, i guess ignorance is bliss.
For what it's worth I test every compression driver before sending them out and probably still have the measurements for yours in my computer because I think they were the last ones I sent out. I test at 1/24th and all three have the same response and extend up to 20khz with no problem. Room placement can/will change responses between any speakers. Pretty sure everyone runs their calibration software after set up to deal with room interactions.

As mentioned here a few times, the speaker is designed to have a flat response, and it does. In room it will have a downward slope, which was explained earlier by a few members with links explaining why. As you move the microphone back farther.....the slope obviously gets lower and you will have more room interaction.

I'm guessing you know this, but not sure. Your Bostons will also have some downward slope in the room. But for them to have a raised high end even at 10-12' away before any adjustments means they were designed very bright right out of the box. Even if you can't imagine people not liking that sound, a very large percentage would consider that almost ear piercing. My dad absolutely loves the sound of his speakers after he adjusts them to his liking. The rest of the family considers them weapons because they hurt our ears after a minute. It's his preference and it is what it is.....but very few speakers are designed that bright without EQ being applied.

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post #165 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Titan off axis (left speaker from my right seat) top end drops of REALLY steep - steep enough that you have to use Audyssey all the way to 20khz or else you will lose a ton of detail.
That's a natural tradeoff that's made if you don't toe in the speakers very much--virtually all speakers will do this (many much less smoothly though). It looks like you have them pointed pretty straight ahead, so that would put the speaker ~45, 50 degrees off axis? Have you measured the VR3's that far off axis with them in a baffle wall?
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post #166 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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@brian6751 - they were awesome at the gtg compared to what? Just curious.

Im not convinced that a speaker that sounds worse with music could sound better with movies - ill judge for myself, but the logic just doesnt hold water to me. The logic that does make sense if that if you want to watch movies at reference in a big theater, the Titans can handle it.


@STL D - sorry but im definitely not taking speakers outside to listen to lol. My room is nothing exotic, its a medium sized theater with acoustic treatments very common to wat you will see in the overwhelming majority of other theaters, and it follows the basic rules of thumb. The absorption panels are not killing the soundstage width/dispersion or top end of the Titans because they arent a black hole of sound. They arent killing the soundstage or top end on the Bostons. Its got to be the waveguide or compression driver or the combo. You feel the waveguide in the Titans images fantastic - compared to what? Just curious.

Ive tried a variety of angles of toe in on the Titans and it can move the center image forward or back a bit, but it doesnt widen the soundstage unfortunately.


If some like the characteristics of the Titans that i do not, im happy for them. No need to get defensive. All i would ask is compared to what? Without some frame of reference, speaker impressions are mostly meaningless, acoustic memory is too short.

I would encourage others who are interested in them like i was to just make sure they compare them to another speaker - your impressions plus mine will eventually round out a better picture of what these speakers are and aren't, something that i feel was largely lacking. I feel they were represented as pro audio components with a hifi crossover design, so stereo music should have been in their wheelhouse. If not, then the egg is on me.

Invitation is still open if someone nearby wants to hear them, but they will be in movie duty without the ability to compare to anything else (because of screen wall layout) for at least the next 2 weeks.
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post #167 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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@Jon AA - common, but not that steep from a main in my experience. The Titans are toed in slightly behind the screen. I have VR1s as my surrounds and rears and none exhibit that much top end rolloff with the exception of the rear left from my right chair strictly above 18khz.
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post #168 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, because i feel like some misinformation is being stated regarding in room FR, attached is a semi anechoic FR of the B&W 803 D3 vs an in room measurement from the same reviewer in the same review, using the same speaker. The semi anechoic is mostly flat with a gentle rise from 3khz to 10khz, then a rolloff starting around 15khz.

The in room response has a top end rolloff starting at - you guessed it - around 15khz. It does not start rolling off at 1khz or even 7khz. The gentle rise from 3khz to 10khz is still apparent, just not as aggressive. The B&W 803 D3 uses a dome tweeter.

So the rolloff i consistently measured starting around 1khz from a variety of toe in positions from both Titans would not seem to be a room effect. It would seem to be a speaker effect. Thus, without EQ, this is a warm speaker. Thats neither yay or nay, its just what it is.
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post #169 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 04:09 PM
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@brian6751 - they were awesome at the gtg compared to what? Just curious.

They sound awesome compared to not so awesome. Not sure what your point is. I didnt bring VR3's with me if thats what you mean.

Im not convinced that a speaker that sounds worse with music could sound better with movies - ill judge for myself, but the logic just doesnt hold water to me.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. The same design choices that make a speaker perform well at high volume also have an effect on how it sounds at lower volume. Like I said, there is no speaker thats perfect at everything. Terms like "worse" and "better" are subjective. You like your Boston Acoustics better. Good for you for discovering that. Its still just your opinion.


The logic that does make sense if that if you want to watch movies at reference in a big theater, the Titans can handle it.

But uh...thats EXACTLY what the Titans were designed for

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post #170 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 05:10 PM
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Ive been reading this thread and at first I was thinking the same as I believe most others were thinking. "What? How can he say the BA VR3 is "better" than the Titan?!!!!",
Couldn't be further from my point. I don't think any one speaker could possibly suffice to feed or negate a skepticism of the DIY landscape. Personally, I don't like the driver compliment beginning with the compression driver in the Titans so I don't think they would be to my liking. That is based on having owned many compression drivers and ending up with beryllium units.

This test serves only to prove that the Titans don't sound good in his heavily treated room without EQ. I didn't bother reading the thread once I saw it was merely a subjective comparison in which he told me that he wouldn't EQ the speakers to his room/liking. It then became a test of which un-EQ'd speaker best fit his taste.

I prefer dynamics so I would give up other aspects another person may like about non-waveguide speakers. This is why subjective opinions don't carry much weight around here.

He is entitled to his opinion but we are on a home theater forum that promotes theater ready DIY speakers. I guess that makes most of us biased toward theater ready DIY speakers. DIYSG does a huge service to the community here making speakers that compete with JBL theater speakers and the like for a fraction of the cost. To many of us, the VR3 doesn't have the dynamics or power handling to play in this arena. They may for Steve. That's OK.

DIYaudio is a forum that aims more toward audiophile type stereo speakers that use state of the art drivers and are intended to be competition for VR3's. Designers there such as Jeff Bagby and Javad Shadzi speak a language I don't understand and they get rave reviews by audio guys. They just don't have the dynamics of a wave guide speaker and can't hit 120db on peaks.
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post #171 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 05:14 PM
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Couldn't be further from my point. I don't think any one speaker could possibly suffice to feed or negate a skepticism of the DIY landscape. Personally, I don't like the driver compliment beginning with the compression driver in the Titans so I don't think they would be to my liking. That is based on having owned many compression drivers and ending up with beryllium units.

This test serves only to prove that the Titans don't sound good in his heavily treated room without EQ. I didn't bother reading the thread once I saw it was merely a subjective comparison in which he told me that he wouldn't EQ the speakers to his room/liking. It then became a test of which un-EQ'd speaker best fit his taste.

I prefer dynamics so I would give up other aspects another person may like about non-waveguide speakers. This is why subjective opinions don't carry much weight around here.

He is entitled to his opinion but we are on a home theater forum that promotes theater ready DIY speakers. I guess that makes most of us biased toward theater ready DIY speakers. DIYSG does a huge service to the community here making speakers that compete with JBL theater speakers and the like for a fraction of the cost. To many of us, the VR3 doesn't have the dynamics or power handling to play in this arena. They may for Steve. That's OK.

DIYaudio is a forum that aims more toward audiophile type stereo speakers that use state of the art drivers and are intended to be competition for VR3's. Designers there such as Jeff Bagby and Javad Shadzi speak a language I don't understand and they get rave reviews by audio guys. They just don't have the dynamics of a wave guide speaker and can't hit 120db on peaks.
I didnt mean you specifically. I agree with what you've said here.

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post #172 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
@brian6751

Im not convinced that a speaker that sounds worse with music could sound better with movies - ill judge for myself, but the logic just doesnt hold water to me. The logic that does make sense if that if you want to watch movies at reference in a big theater, the Titans can handle it.
I find that movies are brighter and more forward tonally than music recordings. I always thought that this was why many kits are designed for that balance. My mains use a different EQ curve for music than for movies.

Also, wave guides interact with rooms differently due to dispersion that changes high frequency reinforcement. For this reason wave guides are typically aimed at the extremes of the audience with the left speaker pointing directly at the right most listening position and the right speaker toward the left most listener. This widens the sweet spot considerably while still controlling sidewall reflection.
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post #173 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 05:36 PM
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I didnt mean you specifically. I agree with what you've said here.
I didn't take it personally. I was merely saying that we are on a home theater forum that promotes theater ready DIY speakers. I guess that makes most of us biased toward theater ready DIY speakers. I've burned out my fair share of dome tweeters trying to get what I needed and was reluctant to go to a compression driver. I found them grainy. The wave guides though, won me over with the dynamics. Unlike steve's findings, I found the sound stage to be wider and deeper due to how the sound propagates in the room but it is placement dependent. Mine are 5 feet out in the room and pointed toward the extreme listening positions. I don't think you can get the same results along the front wall behind a screen.
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post #174 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
He is entitled to his opinion but we are on a home theater forum that promotes theater ready DIY speakers.
Not to be pedantic here, but this is the "DIY Speakers and Subs" subforum. Not specific to HT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinMonster
I guess that makes most of us biased toward theater ready DIY speakers. DIYSG does a huge service to the community here making speakers that compete with JBL theater speakers and the like for a fraction of the cost.
Completely agree. While the name of the subforum does not indicate HT specifically, it certainly is heavily weighted to that side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinMonster
To many of us, the VR3 doesn't have the dynamics or power handling to play in this arena. They may for Steve. That's OK.
And for Steve (anyone for that matter), that's all that really matters. Finding the sound signature you like best, and go with it. We're all here looking for the optimum sound to our ears. Can get expensive really quick if we keep chasing for "more" or "better", seems Steve is at least most of the way there, if not there already, for his preferences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinMonster
DIYaudio is a forum that aims more toward audiophile type stereo speakers that use state of the art drivers and are intended to be competition for VR3's. Designers there such as Jeff Bagby and Javad Shadzi speak a language I don't understand and they get rave reviews by audio guys.
Yeah, that's a Greek I certainly have no understanding of!


I'm impressed with the lengths Steve has gone to test his Titans, heads up against speakers he already knows and loves. I personally believe that will give others here, many new to the whole experience (other than what they heard at BB or such), a lot of information to use in their next speaker decision(s). Looking forward to how this ultimately plays out.

My 0.02...
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post #175 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
I didn't take it personally. I was merely saying that we are on a home theater forum that promotes theater ready DIY speakers. I guess that makes most of us biased toward theater ready DIY speakers. I've burned out my fair share of dome tweeters trying to get what I needed and was reluctant to go to a compression driver. I found them grainy. The wave guides though, won me over with the dynamics. Unlike steve's findings, I found the sound stage to be wider and deeper due to how the sound propagates in the room but it is placement dependent. Mine are 5 feet out in the room and pointed toward the extreme listening positions. I don't think you can get the same results along the front wall behind a screen.
I agree again

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post #176 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 05:54 PM
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DIYSG Titan 615LX vs Boston Acoustics VR3

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Also, because i feel like some misinformation is being stated regarding in room FR, attached is a semi anechoic FR of the B&W 803 D3 vs an in room measurement from the same reviewer in the same review, using the same speaker. The semi anechoic is mostly flat with a gentle rise from 3khz to 10khz, then a rolloff starting around 15khz.

Measurements taken using an unknown procedure (if just single point, then useless...) of a very poorly engineered speaker does not advance your case, which is in any case mistaken.

That speaker has obvious sound power problems.

As for image width, generally a narrow directivity speaker won’t image outside the outer edges. When I had the big Tannoys I placed them basically on the sidewalls, toed in to cross ahead of the MLP. That yielded a wall to wall soundstage when the recording allowed, and good spaciousness. ARC corrected the FR bump due to boundary loading, which gave an additional (albeit unneeded) extra headroom.

Ditching the antiquated and counterproductive padding should help with spaciousness and general sound quality though. Padded walls are for insane asylums.

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post #177 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Also, because i feel like some misinformation is being stated regarding in room FR, attached is a semi anechoic FR of the B&W 803 D3 vs an in room measurement from the same reviewer in the same review, using the same speaker. The semi anechoic is mostly flat with a gentle rise from 3khz to 10khz, then a rolloff starting around 15khz.

The in room response has a top end rolloff starting at - you guessed it - around 15khz. It does not start rolling off at 1khz or even 7khz. The gentle rise from 3khz to 10khz is still apparent, just not as aggressive. The B&W 803 D3 uses a dome tweeter.

So the rolloff i consistently measured starting around 1khz from a variety of toe in positions from both Titans would not seem to be a room effect. It would seem to be a speaker effect. Thus, without EQ, this is a warm speaker. Thats neither yay or nay, its just what it is.
The speaker review of a different speaker in a different room doesn’t apply to the titan and VR3 in your room.

I don’t have time to put this in excel to show a graph, but the speaker response can be determined with the following:

S + R + E = MFR

That is the Speaker response + Room response + Electronic Eq = Measured response.

In your tests you have eliminated electronic EQ so it further simplified to:

S + R = MFR

The reason I mentioned the semi-anechoic responses of the two speakers is because that equation becomes (there is no room in an anechoic measurement):

S = MFR

For the VR3 they have a distinct large bump in the higher frequencies in the semi anechoic measurement. The in room measurement you provided of the VR3 does not show this large bump so that means the “R” for the room is reducing the bump. In a previous post you mentioned you have “standard acoustic treatments” which is the “R” part of the equation. The issue is that the “R” was designed and put in your room specifically for the VR3 response. When you play the Titans you say that they shouldn’t need electronic EQ, but the acoustic treatments don’t just stop being applied when the Titans are being played. Since the acoustic treatments tame the high frequency response of the VR3s then they treatments will also tame the Titan high frequency response. Since the titan doesn’t have a high frequency bump the result of S+R becomes a noticeable drop in the high frequency response of the Titan.

So there are two options to make the comparison valid. The first is to remove some or all of the acoustic treatments, the second far easier option is to add back some electronic EQ that would counteract the current in-room treatments. Once this is done the Titans will stay flat much higher in the frequency range and will review much better. This isn’t “cheating” to help the Titans, it is just removing the treatments that were designed for the VR3 and at least partially not required for the Titans.
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post #178 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 06:14 PM
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@Jon AA - common, but not that steep from a main in my experience.
I just don't know where you're getting that experience. You can go through entire databasses of speaker measurements and have a hard time finding a single speaker that uses a dome tweeter and no waveguide that measures flat 45 degrees off axis. It generally just doesn't happen. And since those measurements are typically anechoic, the drop at the top in-room will be larger. Here are a couple examples that most here will be familiar with bracketing the Titans in price:


SVS Prime Tower:





Elac Unify Slim FS U5:





The top lines are 45 degrees off axis. That's what they typically look like, and you can see how the Elac has much better directivity control (smoother line) but still drops considerably.


To show measurements of a left speaker with very little toe from the far right seat and complain that it's not flat is simply not a realistic expectation for any speaker. But the measurement you did take looks pretty good compared with the above.


Edit: Source for the above: https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...=77&Itemid=153



Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Also, because i feel like some misinformation is being stated regarding in room FR,
If you want to call guys like Floyd Toole "purveyors of misinformation," OK, but that's pretty bold.


Quote:
attached is a semi anechoic FR of the B&W 803 D3 vs an in room measurement from the same reviewer in the same review....
Do you have a link the the review to provide context? I wasn't able to quickly find measurements for that speaker, but the 802 and 804 both show very large humps at the very top:



Last edited by Jon AA; 04-30-2019 at 06:22 PM.
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post #179 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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@Brian65 71 - Meaning did you compare the Titans to any other speakers? I dont know very many speakers that wont sound good just by themselves.
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post #180 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Jon, i mentioned the L and R Titans are toed in behind the screen, and my theater seating is comprised of two wide recliners in the front row and two in the back, so 45 degrees is a bit extreme from L main to right recliner. Its probably much closer to 30, and 30 degrees on the Prime Tower looks quite flat. Again, the Titan starts dropping around 1khz, that is not similar to the SVS or Boston.

I looked at several more measurements from that particular site you used and it looks like the bulk of the well established competent brands measure quite flat off axis. Im not familiar with Elac, but i attached the on axis response - not a great example to have used, as it rolls off above 2khz naturally.

We can go on and on, but it is what it is, the Titans start rolling off around 1khz, and when off axis, its very steep.

B&W 803 D3 review:

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/...er-review/amp/
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