DIYSG Titan 615LX vs Boston Acoustics VR3 - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
@Brian65 71 - Meaning did you compare the Titans to any other speakers? I dont know very many speakers that wont sound good just by themselves.


I was not comparing them to anything. I was judging them on their own.

There’s a difference between characterizing/ judging a speakers tonal qualities and comparing those qualities to another speaker.

You don’t need an AB comparison to determine a speakers tonal characteristics. How would you describe the treble? The midrange? The bass? It’s mostly subjective. Just like any comparison about the tonal differences would be mostly subjective.

Is there a particular speaker you were hoping to hear a comparison of or are you trying to make a point of something?

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post #182 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Not to be pedantic here, but this is the "DIY Speakers and Subs" subforum. Not specific to HT.
98% of the people here are looking for audio as it pertains to a theater and it appeals to DIY home theater enthusiasts so my point was that it shouldn't surprise that a speaker designed for HT would have such a strong following over a speaker that isn't on this forum.

On DIY audio, the project pages don't have many wave guide speakers, and the DIY project page here doesn't have many non-wave guide speakers. I don't know how else to interpret that.
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post #183 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
@brian6751

Ive tried a variety of angles of toe in on the Titans and it can move the center image forward or back a bit, but it doesnt widen the soundstage unfortunately.

In the interest of a science discussion, speaker placement is critical to sound stage and imaging due to early reflections. I place my speakers out into the room to make sure I had no reflections in the first 5ms in all directions. I love the sound stage/imaging compared to all speakers I've owned. I would imagine that it doesn't help either speaker to be on the front wall. My screen is 192" on a 22' by 10' front wall but I still see the full screen from the listening/viewing position.

I think the bias away from ever placing on the front wall for me stemmed from dipoles I've owned, Apogee and Martin Logan, where the rear reflection is critical to depth.
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post #184 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by bitmap42 View Post
So there are two options to make the comparison valid. The first is to remove some or all of the acoustic treatments, the second far easier option is to add back some electronic EQ that would counteract the current in-room treatments. Once this is done the Titans will stay flat much higher in the frequency range and will review much better. This isn’t “cheating” to help the Titans, it is just removing the treatments that were designed for the VR3 and at least partially not required for the Titans.
That's where I was going with the EQ comment on page 1. I suggested EQ for both speakers to remove the room from the equation.

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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
If neither speaker is EQ'd to the room for the comparison, and they are placed in a staggered orientation - AB AB - then the room effects are essentially a wash. The characteristics of each speaker will present themselves in a relative form at a minimum.

What you are saying is that essentially all speaker comparisons prior to 2005 were invalid, because processors didn't have built in EQ, and that's silly.
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post #185 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
98% of the people here are looking for audio as it pertains to a theater and it appeals to DIY home theater enthusiasts so my point was that it shouldn't surprise that a speaker designed for HT would have such a strong following over a speaker that isn't on this forum.

On DIY audio, the project pages don't have many wave guide speakers, and the DIY project page here doesn't have many non-wave guide speakers. I don't know how else to interpret that.
Wasn't disagreeing, just saying that the forum title doesn't state "for HT". It certainly is an HT-heavy crowd here, but there are a few posts intermixed that are looking for multi-purpose and music-based speaker recommendations. As well as xover design help, driver choices for HiFi speakers, etc.

I had the pleasure of hearing a number of DIYSG designs recently at a local GTG and would definitely characterize some of the builds/sounds being geared more toward HT vs music and vice-versa. They all sounded terrific for their intended usage to me, I don't have a refined enough set of ears to pull out the details that the OP has been able to put into words.

The point to my (possibly unneeded) post was that we all have biases based on our past experiences. Some like Klipsch, some BA, etc. If you have the opportunity to listen to many speakers (not directed to you, as I know you have) I highly recommend you do so, as Steve has done and has provided his insight in doing so here.

On the flip side, I'm enjoying the fact that so many are providing insight into setup of speakers/room in this thread. It has given me a lot to think about in regards to setup, and I'm sure many others.
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post #186 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster
In the interest of a science discussion, speaker placement is critical to sound stage and imaging due to early reflections. I place my speakers out into the room to make sure I had no reflections in the first 5ms in all directions. I love the sound stage/imaging compared to all speakers I've owned. I would imagine that it doesn't help either speaker to be on the front wall. My screen is 192" on a 22' by 10' front wall but I still see the full screen from the listening/viewing position.

I think the bias away from ever placing on the front wall for me stemmed from dipoles I've owned, Apogee and Martin Logan, where the rear reflection is critical to depth.
Agreed 100%, and I would never put speakers against a front wall. For the stereo comparison, the Titans were about 5.5' out from the front wall. For movies, they are about 4' out from the front wall.



System is fully calibrated and EQ'd with Titans as the LCR in the 11.2.4 system and I decided to use the AVS Cinemascope Blu Ray demo disc to be able to try out a variety of different movies in a short period of time. I use DTS Neural X on the Marantz 7.2.4 and DTS Neo X on the Onkyo for the wides and front heights. I used approximately 20 clips. The good news is that the bass in the theater is great and the BOSS systems in the front seats using Dayton Classic 15s are amazing - if you haven't checked out the BOSS, you should do so. At the risk of sounding like a sour puss, the front of the room just didn't impress me a whole lot if I'm being honest. In terms of dialog, sound effects, and music, sounds were intelligible, no issue there. The system did not seem strained at my levels (-12). The issue is that, even with the EQ, the front just seemed more lifeless than I am used to, like the sound from the front was not filling up and anchoring the room enough. Panning across the front on the Star Wars pod race scene, as an example, did not seem as grand or large in scale, it seemed smaller than what I am accustomed to. The Fifth Element scene where Lilu is reconstructed once she starts running away and the music hits didn't have much front....ambiance feel or I guess I have to use the word soundstage again. Like it just feels smaller. My hope from the get go was that bigger speakers would sound bigger - as in the sound is coming from a larger area - at the same volume levels as the physically smaller speaker. I wanted a difference in the size of the sound to be like the difference when you go from one subwoofer to multiples, even if the FR and total output level stay the same, the multiples just sound bigger. In this case, for these specific speakers, the inverse ended up being true, the smaller speaker sounds bigger.

I'm really scratching my head after the movie scenes in the sense that I am curious to go in someone else's theater, respectfully, who feels the Titans are top notch and then to have them in mine with the Bostons to see if their presentation sounds like mine does with the Titans and see if they can notice what I feel is a pretty noticeable difference in soundstage and engagement with the Bostons. I have never claimed to have the best theater or equipment, not by a long shot, but the audio experience with the Bostons seems like a noticeable improvement over that of the Titans and I wonder in how many other audio aspects does the attention to fine details or lack thereof carry over in some theaters versus others. I hope that makes sense. It's kind of like asking if black velvet in the front of the room, ceiling, and floor is important to one person's theater vs anothers. One person will say yes, of course, it makes a very big difference in picture quality to have the bulk of your field of vision outside the screen be pitch black with no reflections (I fall into this camp), whereas another may say meh, it's not that critical, reflections don't bother me, I'm focused on the movie screen, not what's happening around it. The latter, to me, is like saying the Titans can be EQ'd flat in room and they play louder than you could possibly want, whereas the former feels like me trying to describe the sound quality differences between the two speakers. I understand that some people aren't interested in the fine details, they just want the capability to play loud cleanly.

I will write a final conclusion in the original post and then eventually I will put these up for sale. If you live near northern Indiana and really wanted some Titans, you might be in luck.
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post #187 of 261 Old 04-30-2019, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Jon, i mentioned the L and R Titans are toed in behind the screen, and my theater seating is comprised of two wide recliners in the front row and two in the back, so 45 degrees is a bit extreme from L main to right recliner. Its probably much closer to 30,

I'll take your word for it as you can actually measure if you want and I cannot. I was merely judging from the picture where it looked like they were almost facing straight forward. That would give an angle of 25-30 degrees to a central seat to start with, to a seat on the far side it would naturally be a lot more.



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and 30 degrees on the Prime Tower looks quite flat.
As 30 degrees is usually considered in the "listening window" that's not usually what people mean by "off-axis" performance. As you can see, there is a mountain of difference between the 30 and 45 degree measurements for many speakers. The worst part of that measurement (45 degrees) is not how much it drops, but how it drops unevenly (uneven directivity index). Going from "flat-ish" on-axis to having a huge trough at 1K-2K, a big hump back up to 3K followed by a rapid falloff from there. That's what gives listeners off-axis a different tonal balance--"sounds different."



You were asking in general what the point of the waveguide was--avoiding that is a big portion of it. The nearly constant directivity waveguides will give a flatter, more linear/smoothly changing directivity index. So as you get far enough off axis, you will be down a few db but the response will remain smoother and flatter giving a more similar sound to those off axis.



The Elac is an example that fairs much better (without a "horn") than the Prime tower as its DI is clearly very smooth and linear, but the response drops off faster than a more constant directivity design will. While it doesn't use a big plastic waveguide, the concentric driver up top acts as one to some extent and you can see the design works pretty nicely.




Quote:
I looked at several more measurements from that particular site you used and it looks like the bulk of the well established competent brands measure quite flat off axis.
Could you point one out? I'm not familiar enough with all those speaker designs to pick out all the ones with a standard dome tweeter and no waveguide but up to this point I haven't found one that is anywhere near "flat" at 45 degrees.



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Again, the Titan starts dropping around 1khz, that is not similar to the SVS or Boston.



We can go on and on, but it is what it is, the Titans start rolling off around 1khz, and when off axis, its very steep.
And this goes back to the original problem--you're using anechoic measurements interchangeably with in-room measurements when the two are not interchangeable. When you have anechoic measurements corrected to 1m that show the Titan start rolling off around 1K, you can say that and be correct. Saying that based upon measurements in your heavily treated room, off axis, from the listening position is simply not correct.
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post #188 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 04:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I wouldnt design my layout so that my main seat is 45 degrees off axis from the left main speaker, i assure you it isnt that extreme. Ill take a pic when i get home tonight if you cant glean it from pics of my theater in my theater link in signature.

If calling my room heavily treated and pretending its an audio black hole for any room interaction allows some of you defending the characteristics im hearing and measuring from the Titans feel better about them, so be it. I dont recall seeing any other Titan owners theaters with necessarily LESS absorption panels than mine - or any legit diy home theaters for that matter. But thats ok, we’ll chalk up their performance to my ‘extreme’ acoustic treatments.

Ill advise the next owner to use bare walls in their theater - i hope that works out great for them 🙂
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I have found the thread to be a very interesting read. Maybe it’s over simplifying, but to me the thread boils down to two things:

1) A controlled directivity design that limits vertical dispersion a lot, and somewhat limits horizontal dispersion, although maybe a lot as you get far off axis.

2) A wide dispersion design that embraces wide horizontal and vertical dispersion in order to incorporate more room reflections into the sound.

From my research, a speaker such as that in example 2 that has very good far off axis response that closely resembles the on axis response will sound very good.

It seems to me as though the OP prefers the sound offered by a speaker of design choice 2, he has fairly large towers with above average sensitivity that meet his SPL requirements, and perhaps has room treatments that compliment those speakers much better than they do the controlled directivity design.

To the OP, thanks for all the effort you put into this comparison. I have a pair of SEOS based speakers under construction and this thread and the OP’s findings in no way diminish how much I am looking forward to upgrading.from my Hsu bookshelf speakers.

However, it does pike my interest to try out a design like the Appolo MT or Helix Dome MT.

Seems like it is very difficult to combine 95 dB+ efficiency and wide dispersion, non waveguide/compression driver setups. Or maybe just not enough people interested in such designs?



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post #190 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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No problem. Do you have any dome tweeter speakers on hand to do some listening impressions with when your kit is complete, or only the HSU speakers?
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post #191 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
No problem. Do you have any dome tweeter speakers on hand to do some listening impressions with when your kit is complete, or only the HSU speakers?


Technically no. The Hsu are the only decent speakers I have. I mean, I have a pair of Dayton Audio B52’s that I picked up for the workout room for $29/pair(teamed with Polk sub) but I don’t think these would be useful for any comparison. Also have a pair of MK402’s I was going to use for surrounds but again, not a good enough speaker to actually do a comparison with imo. I always thought the Hsu sounded exceptionally good for the price. The only other speaker I compared them to were the JBL 308p’s and I can’t say that it seemed like any kind of significant upgrade in sound quality to me. Response at the MLP was extremely close to identical above 150 Hz or so. So I do believe the HSU’s punch well above their price point.

Not to replace the HTM-8’s, but as I said above I am quite interested in building something like the Appolo 7, Helix Dome, or Classix II. All full range designs that can play to 40 Hz or under without a sub. Would make a good gift for my daughter possibly.....I don’t really have a major use for them.

If I could have my cake and eat it too, I would have preferred a 10” woofer using the 10” SEOS which would allow a narrower design but deeper and maybe slightly taller. I like the HTM-8 a lot from a looks perspective but at 12.5” wide, I would have loved a 10” driver in it for my living room system. Wife and I also like the way the HTM-8 looks much better than the Fusion 8, which was the only other design I considered. On vacation so probably at least a couple weeks before the HTM-8’s are done.


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post #192 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 07:56 AM
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I don’t think the treatments that help the Bostons would effect the Titans as they have a waveguide to control directivity.

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post #193 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 08:07 AM
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I don’t think the treatments that help the Bostons would effect the Titans as they have a waveguide to control directivity.


It’s being suggested, to my understanding anyways, that since the Titans have limited far off axis reflected sound by design, further limiting these reflections with room treatments is detracting from sound quality by limiting reflections TOO much and hence reducing soundstage etc. I’m not saying this is the case, but it seems to be a suggested and possibly plausible explanation for some of the differences.


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post #194 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 10:16 AM
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Honestly, I'm just trying to think of anything that could be causing any issues. Obviously it's certainly plausible that your ear just prefers the bostons, but I've never heard anyone say something bad about the DIYSG speakers regarding sound stage. I can personally say my fusion 10s make my room sound twice its physical size, the sound stage is massive on those things. Although... Different type of wave guide and a different compression horn. The SEOS wave guide is known ear candy.

And @SteveCallas I haven't directly compared titans to anything. I've compared my fusions to multiple paradigm models though, and that was a pretty one-sided outcome in favor of the fusions. I'm not coming at you sideways in any of this, I'm just trying to figure out what is going wrong in your specific room here, because your experience regarding imaging is the only case we've ever heard here, and I'm sure someone like Eng, or all the people who've been to his place for GTGs, would've noticed it instantly if it didn't produce there. After all, issues with imaging can be noticed even without comparing to another speaker.

I won't be surprised if your ears still prefer the sound of the bostons, I won't question it in the slightest, but an imaging problem screams that something else is going on here.
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post #195 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 10:48 AM
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Agreed 100%, and I would never put speakers against a front wall.
You seem to be relying on a bunch of obsolete rules of thumb regarding speaker placement, wall padding, etc. So let's go back to first principles.

The main issues arising when speakers are placed against a wall are bass bloat and some loss of image depth. The bass bloat is a non-issue in any modern system, because it will employ room correction (i.e. EQ in the modal region and below) and multiple subwoofers. Image depth on 2-channel music can be recovered to large extent with Auro upmixing. For movies, image depth is a non factor. I would argue that sound quality generally is not a huge factor for movies, as long as dialogue is intelligible and the system doesn't audibly run out of headroom, because of visual masking stimuli...

Let's look at the "endgame" system of someone who's forgotten more about audio than everyone who's contributed to this thread (myself certainly included) has ever learned, Dr. Floyd Toole.



Note the L/R speakers (inverted Revel Salon2 - tweeter at the bottom) are mounted on the front wall. (There is a center from the same line under the screen.) That puts the left/right mids and tweeters only about 2ft from the front wall. Also, no "treatments," just normal cultured adult human room accouterments (books, art, area rug etc).

You may benefit from putting the Titans against the wall, because those speakers could benefit from additional time-of-flight to sum better, you have room correction, and they have such limited backwards radiation that the very early reflections are not really relevant. That said, you may just prefer aggressive voicing and wider directivity. (And the voicing on those Bostons is very aggressive; Sound & Vision "FR" measurements are actually "listening window" averages. If the listening window is tilted up, the axial response is generally even more tilted.)

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If calling my room heavily treated and pretending its an audio black hole for any room interaction allows some of you defending the characteristics im hearing and measuring from the Titans feel better about them, so be it.
To be clear, I have not written anything "defending" the Titans. I actually think speakers of that configuration (including from JBL, QSC, and so on) are inappropriate for home use! A good compression driver on a suitable waveguide can go low enough at small room relevant SPL to mate with a large woofer at a frequency low enough to match the woofer's DI, so IMO the horn loaded midrange just adds needless complexity. IOW, for home use the DIYSG HTM12 (assuming similar level of execution) is a superior choice to the Titan.

My point is simply that padded cells sound and look awful. That applies regardless of the loudspeakers included.

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If I could have my cake and eat it too, I would have preferred a 10” woofer using the 10” SEOS which would allow a narrower design but deeper and maybe slightly taller. I like the HTM-8 a lot from a looks perspective but at 12.5” wide, I would have loved a 10” driver in it for my living room system.
IMO the SEOS waveguides work best with woofers one frame size down from the nominal waveguide width. That gives you more range to achieve a horizontal DI match, and closer center-to-center distance. The SEOS8 with a good tweeter (can be as inexpensive as the Vifa XT25), the 7" Anarchy midbass, and MiniDSP or Hypex DSP plate amp (or external DSP+amps) makes a helluva good-sounding reasonably compact speaker with real guts. It would be a good platform to experiment with voicing, too.
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post #196 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 11:36 AM
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Interesting thread!

From what I understand, you have speakers you have used for many years in a heavily treated room to get them to sound just the way you like them. Now enter new speakers that have radically different dispersion and also narrower dispersion and you proffer your original speakers. Realistically, that makes complete sense akin to liking your old reclinder VS the new one...

I don't have a dog in the hunt, I don't own Bostons or Titans and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night either. Whenever I purchase or build a new speaker, I tend to test it out in the garage to get some cone movement, SPL games and various forms of entertainment going in my garage. I then take it out of the garage out in Mother Nature and fire up the new prized pigs to listen how they sound without room interaction. Eventually, I'll compare them to my other speakers to get an idea if there is a difference between the two, what areas it works better (or not) and get an idea of off-axis response (much easier in glorious mono!) Sure, it will kill the bass response but running them outside eliminates the room so much easier to listen to the speaker and not the room.

Take those Titans (just one if you want to save time and your back) throw them out in a largest backyard or field and listen to them. Might grab one of your Bostons so you can easily compare them. Have fun with it, geek out on dispersion or taking readings with REW etc... your neighbors will be impressed! It is nice to get rid on an unknown, your room in thise case so the great outdoors will help narrow things down for you. If the Bostons still sound better to you outisde in the sunshine, then the room treatments are less of a factor. If you like them both equally, or the Titan pulls ahead outside--then it was your room throwing in the error.

For the talk about a speaker with a 10" SEOS and a 10" driver--you can talk to Tux. He designed one (Fusion 10) and did extensive testing with the B&C DE250 compression driver and one of his favorites is the 250 on the SEOS 10--crossed at 1,300 Hz. I'm sure he might help you out with a Delta 10/10" SEOS with DE250 compression driver build. His youtube channel is Impulse Audio so if you want to see how things are tested, a very interesting channel to browse.

In summation, thanks for the information Steve--very interesting journey and results. At the end of the day, it is your system and your bank statement--go for what works best for you.
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post #197 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitmap42 View Post
So there are two options to make the comparison valid. The first is to remove some or all of the acoustic treatments, the second far easier option is to add back some electronic EQ that would counteract the current in-room treatments. Once this is done the Titans will stay flat much higher in the frequency range and will review much better. This isn’t “cheating” to help the Titans, it is just removing the treatments that were designed for the VR3 and at least partially not required for the Titans.
I hate to be nitpicky, but I'm just trying to clarify comments because in some parts of this thread(not you, bitmap42), it seems to be getting unnecessarily hostile. To be precise, the OP based his treatment type and placement on what have been the accepted rules of thumb for rectangular rooms, not specifically his BA speakers.

That said, the point you're making is important and I'm not sure @SteveCallas picked up on it earlier. A few people have tried to point out that under quasi-anechoic conditions( https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...r3-speaker-sys ) , the BA VR3 seems to have a slight dip at 5K, immediately followed by a noticeable hump at 10K. The Titans seem to measure very flat with a very slight dip where the VR3 has a hump. ( http://www.hificircuit.com/community...fo-thread.633/ )

Comparing those graphs to the in-room graphs the OP provided, it looks as if the room has a dip at around that spot, because both the Titans and the VR3s are measuring lower than published specs at that general area.

Having said that, it's the OP's prerogative whether he wants to EQ it out, see if removing certain treatments makes a difference, sell the Titans and stick with what he prefers, or something else entirely. He's already said that he prefers the imaging of the VR3s. Let's see what his opinions are of the Titans in full surround duty, and then sincerely wish him future enjoyment.
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post #198 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
I then take it out of the garage out in Mother Nature and fire up the new prized pigs to listen how they sound without room interaction.
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
Take those Titans (just one if you want to save time and your back) throw them out in a largest backyard or field and listen to them. Might grab one of your Bostons so you can easily compare them. Have fun with it, geek out on dispersion or taking readings with REW etc... your neighbors will be impressed! It is nice to get rid on an unknown, your room in thise case so the great outdoors will help narrow things down for you. If the Bostons still sound better to you outisde in the sunshine, then the room treatments are less of a factor. If you like them both equally, or the Titan pulls ahead outside--then it was your room throwing in the error.

Just an fyi


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sorry but im definitely not taking speakers outside to listen to lol.

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post #199 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 01:13 PM
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I wouldnt design my layout so that my main seat is 45 degrees off axis from the left main speaker, i assure you it isnt that extreme.
When speaking of the off-axis performance, you didn't say it was measured from the MLP but from the right seat. If that is the MLP I misunderstood. In many home theaters the right seat in the front row certainly will be 45 degrees or more from the left speaker--which is why most users would toe them in a fair amount.


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If calling my room heavily treated and pretending its an audio black hole for any room interaction allows some of you defending the characteristics im hearing and measuring from the Titans feel better about them, so be it.
Now you're really mischaracterizing my responses. While it may have seemed to you they were a "defense of the Titans," they really weren't a defense of those speakers or any other speaker in particular. They were really a defense of science as it applies to speaker and room acoustics, such that readers might be left with a better understanding of how things work instead of incorrect understandings.



From the very first post I made clear that you liking whatever sound you like is totally fine with me and I had no problem with it whatsoever. What I took issue with was your reasoning of why that went against the science of speaker and room acoustics as we know them. I felt those could steer readers down the wrong path, making them believe things that aren't true.


A speaker does not require a large hump at the top of its native response in order to be considered "flat." By definition such a speaker is not "flat."


A speaker with a "flat" native response will tend to provide a downward sloping in-room response.


Those are simple statements of fact that are helpful for users to understand when selecting/building/calibrating/comparing, etc, speakers. That you prefer a different sound doesn't change them, and it doesn't help readers to try and convince them they are not true.


Again, my responses were meant to be quite universal. Frankly, I believe had you spent $20K on a set of M2s or Salon2s (which blind tests have identified as some of the best sounding speakers there are), you would have had very similar results. They are relatively flat, lacking a large hump at the top end of the response and would have measured with a nice downward slope in your room. Had you explained your dislike for those as something being wrong with the speakers, something needing to be "fixed" with the speakers, it would have been met with much skepticism given the reputation of those speakers even if the results had been similar. There is much data showing that most people would judge the sound as quite good. That you prefer a different sound doesn't mean others are wrong in their preference ("don't care about hearing detail") or that the science is wrong. Just that you prefer something different.





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But thats ok, we’ll chalk up their performance to my ‘extreme’ acoustic treatments.

Ill advise the next owner to use bare walls in their theater - i hope that works out great for them 🙂
Again, I never said anything one way or another about your treatments. I think they'd probably be fine for most people in a theater. I was simply addressing the science--treatments can affect in-room response measurements and high frequency energy is often attenuated more than low frequency energy by such treatments. That is not indicative of a "problem" with the speakers.
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post #200 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 01:20 PM
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If the titans are not sending waves into the treatments than there is nothing to be effected. The titans are controlled so walls whether treatment or not won’t effect the sound at first reflection points. So his 1st reflection point treatments should not effect the titans unless they are aimed where they are. The CD and mids are recessed so the waveguide controls this. This is why people like the effect of waveguides in rooms without treatment, it prevents the sound from hitting them. Maybe the rear treatments or something else is effected but I have never seen a movie theater without treatments.

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post #201 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 02:01 PM
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If the titans are not sending waves into the treatments than there is nothing to be effected. The titans are controlled so walls whether treatment or not won’t effect the sound at first reflection points. So his 1st reflection point treatments should not effect the titans unless they are aimed where they are. The CD and mids are recessed so the waveguide controls this. This is why people like the effect of waveguides in rooms without treatment, it prevents the sound from hitting them. Maybe the rear treatments or something else is effected but I have never seen a movie theater without treatments.
I don't think "no" treatments is the answer, just wondering if it's a case of the wrong treatments more than anything. Too much diffusion can make a room sound dead with some speakers.
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post #202 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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In case some may have missed it, i have been EQing the Titans to mimic the FR of the Bostons for the past several days, so even though i have harped on the Titan natural FR having a noticeable top end rolloff in my room (because i do not believe MOST users are EQing up past 1khz.....widespread auto EQ programs have only been prevalent for the past 10 years or so, and the Audyssey flavor was the only one doing detailed FR shaping up until a few years ago), ive been hearing them EQ’d much flatter.

It did help a little with clarity and detail up top, but did nothing for soundstage size or depth.
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post #203 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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@Jon AA - i hear exactly what you are saying, and i appreciate it, but i dont agree that the Salon 2s would have a roll off above 1khz in room like the Titans, just as the B&W 803 D3s don’t, and just like the SVS Prime towers wouldn't. I dont agree that this is a characteric of speakers with a flat FR. Maybe they will roll off in room gently above approximately 15khz, but not 1khz.

The Bostons are VERY flat anechoically up until the small dip at 6-7khz and small bump at 10khz, yet they dont start rolling off at 1khz in room. How do you explain that? That is a characteristic only being attributed to the Titans, so i must conclude my particular set of Titans, at the very least, arent nearly as flat naturally as the graph from diysg shows them to be.
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post #204 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
@Jon AA - i hear exactly what you are saying, and i appreciate it, but i dont agree that the Salon 2s would have a roll off above 1khz in room like the Titans, just as the B&W 803 D3s don’t, and just like the SVS Prime towers wouldn't. I dont agree that this is a characteric of speakers with a flat FR. Maybe they will roll off in room gently above approximately 15khz, but not 1khz.

The Bostons are VERY flat anechoically up until the small dip at 6-7khz and small bump at 10khz, yet they dont start rolling off at 1khz in room. How do you explain that? That is a characteristic only being attributed to the Titans, so i must conclude my particular set of Titans, at the very least, arent nearly as flat naturally as the graph from diysg shows them to be.
Which could be a cross-over issue.
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post #205 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Im open to that possibility. I bought them premade from diysg. That might fix the top end FR, but i dont believe it would fix the soundstage
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post #206 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
If the titans are not sending waves into the treatments than there is nothing to be effected. The titans are controlled so walls whether treatment or not won’t effect the sound at first reflection points. So his 1st reflection point treatments should not effect the titans unless they are aimed where they are. The CD and mids are recessed so the waveguide controls this.
I don't think it's quite a case of "all or nothing." There's a large amount of gray area between being less influenced by room treatments in specific locations and all room treatments having absolutely no effect. I think the former is probably a more accurate description.


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@Jon AA - i hear exactly what you are saying, and i appreciate it, but i dont agree that the Salon 2s would have a roll off above 1khz in room like the Titans, just as the B&W 803 D3s don’t, and just like the SVS Prime towers wouldn't.
I don't think there's any evidence to support that, with the exception of the B&W 803. If you look closely at the close-mic measurements of those speakers in the review you posted, the chart is a "make it look flat" chart compressing a 160 db range into the vertical axis. If you look very closely, you can see they're at an average level of about 81 db at 1K, which rises to about 89db at 10K.





If you want a flat room response, that's one way to do it, but it is not accurate to describe that speaker's native response as "flat."



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I dont agree that this is a characteric of speakers with a flat FR. Maybe they will roll off in room gently above approximately 15khz, but not 1khz.
That's just what the science dictates, that's all.


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At the present time, all of the highest rated loudspeakers, cone/dome and M2, generate room curves that are well described as gently tilted lines at about -0.4 to -0.5 dB/oct from 20 to 20k, in normally reflective rooms and HTs. In spite of the very real differences among rooms, this relationship has been confirmed by numerous independent measurements. If you measure such a curve, it means that you probably bought the right loudspeaker.


Quote:
The Bostons are VERY flat anechoically up until the small dip at 6-7khz and small bump at 10khz, yet they dont start rolling off at 1khz in room. How do you explain that? That is a characteristic only being attributed to the Titans, so i must conclude my particular set of Titans, at the very least, arent nearly as flat naturally as the graph from diysg shows them to be.
This is starting to get into the minutia, but if you look closely at the VR3's published measurement there is a 1-2 db rise from 400 hz (ignoring the dip below it) to 4K (before that dip starts) so one would expect less in-room drop over that range.



When trying to look at global changes in room response I find it helpful to use smoothed curves of 1/3 octave or so (otherwise small EQ changes will be impossible to see as they'll be lost in the noise). You can smooth the response of the Titan in Ratbuddy to get a better look at it.



Eyeballing the chart you did post, ignoring the room dominated stuff below 200 hz, it looks like it goes from an average value of about -2 db at 200 to -5 db at 10K, a drop of 3db, with another 1-1.5 db from there to 15K. A total drop of 4-5 db from 200 hz to 15K. That seems to be very well in line with what Floyd predicts over that range. Anyway, a smoothed chart may show that a bit better.
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post #207 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 04:12 PM
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In case some may have missed it, i have been EQing the Titans to mimic the FR of the Bostons


No, you haven’t. You’ve been EQing it to have the same averaged response around the listening position. That is actually quite a different thing. It would be interesting to see the actual resulting FR. Are you equipped to take decent quasi-anechoic measurements?

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post #208 of 261 Old 05-01-2019, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Just watched November Man. I kept the Onkyo off, meaning no front wides or front highs, just the LCR for up front. All of my surrounds sound very enveloping, but again the front seems to be very small sounding. Almost to the point of distraction compared to what i am used to.

I think my movie testing is done. Im having a gtg with coworkers weekend after this and i definitely want the VR3s back in, they make for a more immersive and impressive showing.
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post #209 of 261 Old 05-02-2019, 04:41 AM
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Just watched November Man. I kept the Onkyo off, meaning no front wides or front highs, just the LCR for up front. All of my surrounds sound very enveloping, but again the front seems to be very small sounding. Almost to the point of distraction compared to what i am used to.

I think my movie testing is done. Im having a gtg with coworkers weekend after this and i definitely want the VR3s back in, they make for a more immersive and impressive showing.
Great, you've proved what you set out to prove. Congrats!
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post #210 of 261 Old 05-02-2019, 06:13 AM
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Great, you've proved what you set out to prove. Congrats!
It's not accurate to say that. The guy bought these speakers because every review and bit of information he read here and elsewhere pointed to the Titans being a step up from what he had. In the process, he realized what he really wanted from speakers isn't where the Titans excelled relative to his current mains.

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