DIYSG Titan 615LX vs Boston Acoustics VR3 - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 06:51 AM
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Just to help clarify, these SEOS controlled directivity waveguides still need treatment in room regardless of their specific characteristics. Theres no magic in what they do to reflections.

They create a more consistent response as you move off axis when compared to other waveguides. This makes for better seat to seat consistency. Horizontally they have a very wide and impressive range and as the response gets lower off axis it is more consistent than others.

Vertically it is MUCH more limited than some designs to reduce reflections from the ceiling and floor. You would theoretically need less treatment to your floor or ceiling, but the side walls are not affected much as far as treatment needs.

Another critical point to make is regarding reference. There still is no universal music reference standard and anything recorded and not remastered in the last 20 years is definitely following no standard.

To me this always means music comparisons are subjective, even when strict standards are used to try and limit the variables. If you like that original Led Zeppelin recording, or a Brahms symphony, youve heard it in your own setup likely quite often. How it "should" sound becomes a clear preference for many to their own setups.

Steve likes the sound of the Bostons better. It is clear and I accept it fully.

When I reviewed my htm12s, it was mostly movies but several songs were also reviewed. When you think about it, the only valid comparison I can make that isnt totally subjective is a movie using reference standards. I CAN hear the dynamics are better, that it is very smooth, clear, better in tonal quality than my Klipsch.

I cannot, no matter what I do, prove to anyone they sound better than Klipsch listening to music in my room. Even if a FR, distortion and other readouts appeared "better", that still is subjective....because what FR is best for music exactly? Well if I listen to stuff from 50 years ago its different from this year in recording standards. And many engineers accounted for car stereos and home reproduction equipment standards and expectations from long ago.

Since it isnt recorded consistently, music is always subjective. So my conclusion then is Steve is 100% correct in saying there are not enough subjective a to b comparisons. With say 100 people all commenting on a speaker vs other brands, consensus opinions would become more clear. Without them we have little to work from.
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post #212 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 09:22 AM
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It depends on our hearing. Younger friends can still clearly hear higher than 12khz and speakers that are flat or a rising response at the listening position sounds bright to them. I tend to like a flat smooth response but usually 3-5dB less than the 100-500 hz region. I like the low bass even higher than that. I do like the harmon curve but less up high and more down low, well, 5-10hz low. I mean it is what it is, whether done perfectly or not we have to place a speaker in room where they can and then listen to what they like. I have always said, speaker A measures better, or costs more, or uses better drivers, than speaker B so I should like speaker A. BUT, I like the presentation of speaker B in my room, go with what the majority say, or with what I like in my room? If I blind test people and they all pick speaker A do I still use it? I still like Speaker B, what is wrong with me? Ok, use speaker B but if I have to sell speakers go with speaker A. Maybe? Who knows. We like what we like.

I still say Steve should be blind tested with each stereo set or even better each one as a center channel and listen to it that way. Dynamics, tonality, vocal clarity, and scores all come through the center. Have somebody put each in the center side by side with the middle of each dead center to your seat. Connect one to speaker A and the other to speaker B. Slide your head slightly left for speaker A and then hit the button for speaker B and slide your head quickly to the right. This way you can switch as fast as you wish listening to the same thing and most importantly NOT knowing which is playing. Whatever you pick is your huckleberry.
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post #213 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 09:32 AM
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MK I like all your points. I think lots of opinions would help.
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post #214 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
MK I like all your points. I think lots of opinions would help.
Thanks, We like what we like BUT are we biased? I love blind testing so I pick with my ears only. If something sounds the same I pick the cheaper or easier to setup one. I always test new gear with the same 7 people who have heard everything I have been through. I know they are sick of it but they will get over it.
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post #215 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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I disagree on the flat FR sounding bright to people with good high frequency hearing, that just doesnt make sense. Why would flat at higher frequencies not sound right but flat at lower frequencies would sound right? I believe the opposite is true, people with reduced hearing capability up high are unable to hear the detail differences between a speaker that is flat up high vs rolled off, and thats why you dont see a lot of protest against speakers that arent very flat up high in room, because this expensive hobby is mostly skewed towards older males due to more disposable income.
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post #216 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Hearing sensitivity curves give credence to what i just explained about upper frequencies, and, match the FR of the Boston VR3s eerily close.
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post #217 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 10:43 AM
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DIYSG Titan 615LX vs Boston Acoustics VR3

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Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
Just to help clarify, these SEOS controlled directivity waveguides still need treatment in room regardless of their specific characteristics. Theres no magic in what they do to reflections.

Agreed. Such treatments are
1) serious bass trapping if possible (constrained layer damped walls)
2) normal civilized human trappings of life such as books, artwork, etc.

Padded cells have utility in protecting people suffering from mental illness from self-harm, but none in music reproduction.

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post #218 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
I disagree on the flat FR sounding bright to people with good high frequency hearing, that just doesnt make sense.

What are you discussing, listening position response or anechoic loudspeaker response?

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post #219 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
I disagree on the flat FR sounding bright to people with good high frequency hearing, that just doesnt make sense. Why would flat at higher frequencies not sound right but flat at lower frequencies would sound right? I believe the opposite is true, people with reduced hearing capability up high are unable to hear the detail differences between a speaker that is flat up high vs rolled off, and thats why you dont see a lot of protest against speakers that arent very flat up high in room, because this expensive hobby is mostly skewed towards older males due to more disposable income.
I was just saying based on my room and listeners. Remember, you listen at lower levels as compared to reference levels. All my movies are at reference, bass rising to the ULF range. The current speakers that everbody picked hands down had this response at my LP.



No EQ, just smoothed to get rid of noise. That little dip could be mic, but the tweets extend well past 20khz. My next speaker will be a little flatter throughout, we shall see. Flat speakers don't sound bright to me, flat at LP that is, but the smoother the better. I also think drivers and tweets all sound different and even though two might measure similar, can sound different.

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post #220 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I was just saying based on my room and listeners. Remember, you listen at lower levels as compared to reference levels. All my movies are at reference, bass rising to the ULF range. The current speakers that everbody picked hands down had this response at my LP.







No EQ, just smoothed to get rid of noise. That little dip could be mic, but the tweets extend well past 20khz. My next speaker will be a little flatter throughout, we shall see. Flat speakers don't sound bright to me, flat at LP that is, but the smoother the better. I also think drivers and tweets all sound different and even though two might measure similar, can sound different.


Are those the speakers you built?


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post #221 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 11:56 AM
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Agreed. Such treatments are
1) serious bass trapping if possible (constrained layer damped walls)
2) normal civilized human trappings of life such as books, artwork, etc.

Padded cells have utility in protecting people suffering from mental illness from self-harm, but none in music reproduction.
I'm interested in this. Do you have any supporting material you could link me to or suggest some search terms?

I have a padded cell It was purposely padded though. I used REW's ETC graph to find out where (in time/distance) the reflections were for each speaker. Then I confirmed that with the "mirror trick" deal. Then I added treatment at those locations. After that, dialog clarity (center channel) and overall clarity improved significantly. A night and day difference.

So my experience, for my room and gear, indicates that some padding is a good thing. I'd be interested in any contrary information; maybe I overdid it and there's a better approach that might improve things even more.

PS. Caveat - you said "music reproduction". I'm primarily interested in movies or multi-channel music (or 2-channel music expanded to multi-channel). If we're just talking about music, I can't support the "night and day difference" claim. I *can* still say that padding made an improvement for music listening (2-channel even) with the addition of a ceiling-cloud.
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post #222 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 12:25 PM
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Are those the speakers you built?


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Yes, in my avatar.

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post #223 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 01:48 PM
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I switched from a KEF 4 inch satellites all-round system to HTM-12s mains and Volt 6s for surround/atmos. My sub is a KEF Kube 12b that has no problem pressurizing the room. Just like you I was underwhelmed by the change. The HTMs were barely more weighty than the KEFs, and in some ways less. They could swing a huge punch on occasion tho. The KEFs were foot-tappingly musical whereas the HTMs did not really tickle me. I have run Audyssey (Marantz SR7012) several times. I usually change all the 'large speakers' to 'small' and up the crossover for all to 100Hz. One observation is that the speakers definitely improved as they run in, but they did not nearly enough to overcome the weakness. I even considered switching back to the KEF satellites.

Next plan: Invert the HTMs to bring the tweeters closer to ear level, even though they are already pretty close. I also bought the jeans insulation to re-stuff the enclosures, in case that had something to do with the problem.

So the latest episode of Game of Thrones was coming round last weekend. I decided to recheck my settings and run Audyssey one more time, in preparation for a viewing party. After all, the sound would still be impressive to everyone else who is coming from a simple flat screen. I checked the sub settings - switched the dsp from corner to wall location, the x-over from 'LFE' to 140Hz. Audyssey returned different results this time. It set the HTM-12s to small @80Hz and the rear Volt 6s to large @40Hz. I was about to do the usual 'set all to small/100Hz' when I thought, let me test this out first..

MIND BLOWN!!! Slam is off the charts! They make the KEFs sound like puppies at any time, any level! Musicality - the KEFs still hold the crown, right? The HTM-12 are right there by their side, and with dynamics and detail to wipe the floor with them!! I suspected that the design refinement\quality control that can be achieved by a commercial company may be out of reach with the HTMs. And my necessary modification to the design compromised them... turns out - NOPE! I honestly cannot wrap my head around the same speakers sounding so different. One day Bruce Banner, the next HULK SMASH!! I am currently a bit overwhelmed. I still need to figure out where it is exactly I was going wrong before, but right now I am supremely satisfied.

The moral of the story is that the Titans can probably do what you hoped them to. It just takes a bit of running in and tinkering around to get there. Good luck!
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@MKtheater - i would definitely call that in room FR flat. Yes there is a small dip, but it picks back up, so its not a rolloff.
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post #225 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 03:08 PM
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I know, the specs say they go out to 40khz, can't measure or hear that anyways but everybody has picked them as their favorties in my room, and I have been through alot, too many to count.

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post #226 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
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I disagree on the flat FR sounding bright to people with good high frequency hearing, that just doesnt make sense. Why would flat at higher frequencies not sound right but flat at lower frequencies would sound right?
Some people think flat FR sounds bright when the real issue is that it is a lack of bass. It is really just lean. Not having low end accentuates high frequencies especially in highly dynamic speakers.

A crude example is to simply turn a bass knob way down. People mistake no bass for being bright. In essence, isn't it really just that the highs are a higher decibel than the lows in relation to how real life sounds? Anyone who hears a band play live (no PA system) would agree that the bass/drums are extraordinarily loud in comparison to recorded sound. If you try to record it, and I have, the bass is 30db higher than the cymbals. If you look at an RTA while music is playing, the bass overpowers everything in SPL. Playing music back on a flat system does not yield the same balance, hence the use of the 'house curve'.

As you increase SPL, the fletcher-munson curve makes speakers sound even brighter if bass can't keep up due to sub limitations.
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post #227 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 06:19 PM
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Another anomaly about perceived SPL, when distortion is astonishingly low, the volume doesn't immediately strike you as loud until you try to talk to people next to you. Yelling as loud as you can, they can't hear you from 2 feet away. On compression drivers distortion is really low because you aren't even driving with one watt. When you upgrade the bass/subs and distortion drops, you find yourself increasing the tilt lifting the bass because it suddenly takes more SPL to subjectively keep up even though measurements show otherwise. When I switched from 4 15's to 4 18's, I found myself jacking up the low end 10db but the perceived low/high balance was the same.
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post #228 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I have updated the first post to summarize and share my findings with future readers of this thread. Thanks to all those who contributed.


@SpinMonster - I agree 100% with both of your posts above.
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post #229 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 09:39 PM
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[quote=jcmccorm;57988748]I'm interested in this. Do you have any supporting material you could link me to or suggest some search terms?

Start with Toole, 3rd ed, Chapter 7.

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PS. Caveat - you said "music reproduction". I'm primarily interested in movies or multi-channel music (or 2-channel music expanded to multi-channel). If we're just talking about music, I can't support the "night and day difference" claim. I *can* still say that padding made an improvement for music listening (2-channel even) with the addition of a ceiling-cloud.
Music reproduction can involve however many channels, native and/or upmixed.

Sound quality for movies is comparatively unimportant, unless something's really wrong. The reason is the visual masking stimulus provided by that, you know, screen.

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post #230 of 260 Old 05-02-2019, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Titans listed for sale if anyone in the midwest is interested.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/index...topics/3065558

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post #231 of 260 Old 05-03-2019, 05:18 AM
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[quote=DS-21;57991478]
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I'm interested in this. Do you have any supporting material you could link me to or suggest some search terms?

Start with Toole, 3rd ed, Chapter 7.
Thanks! I actually am reading that now. I just haven't gotten to Chapter 7 yet.
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As an experiment you could test the speakers using straight stereo amplification - full range, no dsp, no subs. That might give you some more insight into the speakers' base characteristics.
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The bulk of the listening was in pure direct mode, 40hz crossover, no subwoofers.
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post #234 of 260 Old 05-14-2019, 05:33 PM
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Have you played around further with the Titans? Different crossover points, etc?
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I sold the Titans this past weekend.
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post #236 of 260 Old 05-17-2019, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Look what I found. Reading back over it now, I see the same players. Guess I was actually interested in trying out the SEOS for 5 years.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...omparison.html
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post #237 of 260 Old 05-17-2019, 10:03 PM
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Unfortunately the titans are not a Seos horn. You never tried a true SEOS design. Having said that I still think it is a matter of compression driver vs dome. You just like the dome better and if not pushing it then distortion does not matter, or a lack of spl. I am just surprised about the 15 not having a big impact but it maybe just not loud enough to do it. I also prefer my domes to compression drivers but because I listen at reference I need an array, or two good ones.

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post #238 of 260 Old 05-17-2019, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Unfortunately the titans are not a Seos horn. You never tried a true SEOS design. Having said that I still think it is a matter of compression driver vs dome. You just like the dome better and if not pushing it then distortion does not matter, or a lack of spl. I am just surprised about the 15 not having a big impact but it maybe just not loud enough to do it. I also prefer my domes to compression drivers but because I listen at reference I need an array, or two good ones.
Beryllium compression drivers are a whole new ball game. I didn't like the BMS 4550 CD and switched. It was day and night. It's like an electrostatic or ribbon sound but with dynamics.
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post #239 of 260 Old 05-18-2019, 11:34 AM
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I know there are variations in CDs and soft domes. They make beryllium in soft dome as well. I like the DNA 205 CD better than the B&C DE-250 in sound quality. Not an apples to apples though because the 205 was on a SEOS horn and the B&C was on an eminence horn.

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post #240 of 260 Old 05-18-2019, 03:40 PM
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Beryllium compression drivers are a whole new ball game. I didn't like the BMS 4550 CD and switched. It was day and night. It's like an electrostatic or ribbon sound but with dynamics.

This is what I’ve been wondering about, is there a compression driver that has the detail of the domes or ribbons with more spl capability. I can’t tell if it’s the case that by design the compression driver by bouncing the output before it emerges, will never sound as transparent as a direct radiator.
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