DIYSG Titan 615LX vs Boston Acoustics VR3 - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 277 Old 05-19-2019, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Vince_B View Post
This is what I’ve been wondering about, is there a compression driver that has the detail of the domes or ribbons with more spl capability. I can’t tell if it’s the case that by design the compression driver by bouncing the output before it emerges, will never sound as transparent as a direct radiator.
That's not true. Some of the best holographic sound speakers use a wave guide such as the JBL M2 and the Everest which uses compression drivers.

I have owned Martin Logan, Apogee, and some pretty high end domes, and none of them compare to the imaging and sound stage of what I now have.
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post #242 of 277 Old 05-19-2019, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Were you able to compare them side by side?
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post #243 of 277 Old 05-19-2019, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
That's not true. Some of the best holographic sound speakers use a wave guide such as the JBL M2 and the Everest which uses compression drivers.

I have owned Martin Logan, Apogee, and some pretty high end domes, and none of them compare to the imaging and sound stage of what I now have.
Well, people in a shootout picked the Revel over the JBL M2, dome vs compression driver. The point is Steve likes what he likes.

Do you guys think all the Boston Acoustics people would be all over this thread if the titans were preferred? The JBL M2 is touted as one of the best measured speakers ever and it is not the preference of everyone.

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post #244 of 277 Old 05-19-2019, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
That's not true. Some of the best holographic sound speakers use a wave guide such as the JBL M2 and the Everest which uses compression drivers.



I have owned Martin Logan, Apogee, and some pretty high end domes, and none of them compare to the imaging and sound stage of what I now have.


What is your preferred CD? Do you have a link to your preferred setup?
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post #245 of 277 Old 05-19-2019, 02:04 PM
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Well, people in a shootout picked the Revel over the JBL M2, dome vs compression driver. The point is Steve likes what he likes.
Sir, I was commenting on the blanket statement that wave guides prevent a speaker from sounding transparent.

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Originally Posted by Vince_B View Post
This is what I’ve been wondering about, is there a compression driver that has the detail of the domes or ribbons with more spl capability. I can’t tell if it’s the case that by design the compression driver by bouncing the output before it emerges, will never sound as transparent as a direct radiator.
No comment was made about domes being better or worse. I simply disagree with the blue highlighted words because there are transparent sounding wave guide speakers.

I never commented on what Steve likes. I never heard the Titan or the speakers he likes so I have no comment on that. I have burned out a ton of dome tweeters that sounded awesome so Steve's speakers won't work for me because burned out tweeters don't sound good.

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post #246 of 277 Old 05-19-2019, 02:19 PM
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Sir, I was commenting on the blanket statement that wave guides prevent a speaker from sounding transparent.

I actually said I think that might be the case and was asking for input. Also I don’t believe the waveguide has to do with it but asked if the CD does. I’m comparing htm10 and mini statements and the ribbon wins in detail, the horn on directivity.

And this is a sincere question, what is a transparent sounding CD? I want to start working on some new speakers for a large room, so I’d like to order a couple CD to try. Might be paired with some AE woofers or maybe a three way.
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post #247 of 277 Old 05-19-2019, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Vince_B View Post
I actually said I think that might be the case and was asking for input. Also I don’t believe the waveguide has to do with it but asked if the CD does. I’m comparing htm10 and mini statements and the ribbon wins in detail, the horn on directivity.

And this is a sincere question, what is a transparent sounding CD? I want to start working on some new speakers for a large room, so I’d like to order a couple CD to try. Might be paired with some AE woofers or maybe a three way.
I think I answered it as you asked it by giving examples of speakers which are transparent sounding. If even one speaker can be transparent sounding with a compression driver and waveguide then the implementation doesn't preclude transparent sound.

I didn't say there aren't speakers that sound better. Compression drivers fix other issues such as spl output with low distortion which preclude domes for some people, not that they can't sound amazing. I kept burning them out so that route is not going to work for me.

I think one problem with compression drivers, particularly on this forum is that only budget models are used. Polyester/mylar/ ect break up and can sound grainy. Titanium can scream at you. Yes they can be implemented to minimize these effects and sound great but for the most part, there are very few DIY kits that use high end drivers. On occasion there are beryllium builds but they don't get much follow up when parts cost $5k.

Wave guides can also be used with dome tweeters. The JBL 308P used with a sub is one of the best systems I've heard if used within it's 107db spl limits. I use a pair of those with a TC Sounds sub in a bedroom system and it is as good as anything I've heard transparency wise.

A 3rd system I have uses an XT25 ring radiator on an 8" wave guide. It too sounds great.

I'm not hating on domes.
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post #248 of 277 Old 05-19-2019, 02:49 PM
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And this is a sincere question, what is a transparent sounding CD?
Any CD can sound transparent in a properly designed system.

I'd look at the DIYSG HTM12 and once you get it in your room, EQ it to your tastes and address the frequency areas typically blamed for making a speaker sound tubby. A decrease in the 100-300hz range typically is credited with making a speaker sound transparent. You also need a very flat midrange.

Judging a speaker for frequency response issues that aren't to you taste is why EQ exists.
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post #249 of 277 Old 05-19-2019, 03:11 PM
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Then whether Dome or CD wont matter for transparency with at frequencies you just posted.

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post #250 of 277 Old 05-19-2019, 10:07 PM
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Then whether Dome or CD wont matter for transparency with at frequencies you just posted.
I never said it did. I said wave guide speakers can sound transparent and offered a way to improve that aspect of sound with EQ for any speaker.

You seem intent on believing it was an attack on domes when it was a defense of CD's/waveguides.
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post #251 of 277 Old 05-20-2019, 07:39 AM
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No, not an attack, a misundestanding. Waveguides were never mentioned by me, compression drivers were. I am talking sound of cd's and domes, that is all. You said waveguide speakers can sound holographic then mentioned 100-300hz being lowered. That is all. All I said that Steve might just like the sound of domes over cds, and that the titan was not a seos waveguide. I know there are awesome and crap domes, cds, etc.. Where there is somebody loving cds another preferes domes, and vice versa. I like CDs for their dynamic sound, but like domes for their natural sound. Have you tried making an array of that xt25? Which xt25, they are not all the same. I made an array of the best one and none of the CD/waveguide speakers sound as good. It is in my Avatar.
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post #252 of 277 Old 05-20-2019, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
No, not an attack, a misundestanding. Waveguides were never mentioned by me, compression drivers were. I am talking sound of cd's and domes, that is all. You said waveguide speakers can sound holographic then mentioned 100-300hz being lowered. That is all. All I said that Steve might just like the sound of domes over cds, and that the titan was not a seos waveguide. I know there are awesome and crap domes, cds, etc.. Where there is somebody loving cds another preferes domes, and vice versa. I like CDs for their dynamic sound, but like domes for their natural sound. Have you tried making an array of that xt25? Which xt25, they are not all the same. I made an array of the best one and none of the CD/waveguide speakers sound as good. It is in my Avatar.
I would say that CD's, at least the ones I've heard, were grainy in comparison to quality domes. That changed once I heard a beryllium CD. The beryllium pushes the breakup above 20k.

I have the XT25-60 with the double magnet (vifa?). The big advantage of a wave guide with that ring radiator is that the low end lift allows you to roll it off nearly 10db in the 2k range making it cleaner distortion wise.
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post #253 of 277 Old 05-20-2019, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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have you heard a berillium dome?
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post #254 of 277 Old 05-20-2019, 09:25 PM
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I was going to say that. A beryllium CD is not cheap at all, if it takes a $500 CD to sound better than a $25-$50 dome than that explains a lot.

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post #255 of 277 Old 05-20-2019, 10:28 PM
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I was going to say that. A beryllium CD is not cheap at all, if it takes a $500 CD to sound better than a $25-$50 dome than that explains a lot.
Just because I kept some junk speakers for minor systems doesn't mean I haven't had my share of $300 dome tweeters.
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post #256 of 277 Old 05-21-2019, 07:54 AM
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There are always going to be values of sorts out there, I like my $25 dual ring radiators better than my $1000 jbl 2447.

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post #257 of 277 Old 05-21-2019, 08:27 AM
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That's a lot of money for a 2447(H? J?), although brand new I guess they do go for that amount.


Theres also a big difference between a CD that crosses over at 500hz versus a dome that crosses over at 1800(and higher). Not to mention all the issues that arise from running an array of HF tweeters versus a single point source.


An ultra sensitive CD doesn't have to use all of its power handling either in a home environment allowing most to users to use cheaper CD's as well. Here, it is all too often that very expensive ones get recommended.


Me, personally, I'll never go back to dome's.
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post #258 of 277 Old 05-21-2019, 08:54 AM
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I know all about tweeter arrays and line arrays, etc.. I crossed my 2447(best CD I have owned) at 500hz to my jbl 2035. It was a great speaker. My tweeter array crosses at 1600hz. I like my tweeter array better on the same reference level material I always compare. My tweeter array cost $100. I am going to try smaller dual rings next for a 12 inch long array which BTW is smaller than the huge horns required for these big 2 inch CDs. They all become point source at a certain distance and I don't move my head up and down to notice any comb filtering. My response is much flatter without EQ with the array over any CD I have owned.

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post #259 of 277 Old 05-21-2019, 08:59 AM
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DIYSG Titan 615LX vs Boston Acoustics VR3

Can’t weigh in with a valid opinion regarding dome vs compression drivers, but I can say that I had Hsu horn loaded bookshelf speakers that I thought sounded really good and now have DIYSG HTM-8’s with compression drivers in SEOS horns and I think they sound great as well in my living room with poor placement.

I’m really interested to try a wide dispersion design such as the DIYSG Appolo 7 MT or the Helix Dome MT, as I feel like this would be a fun comparison between a wide dispersion design and a controlled directivity design. Also both of those designs are pretty capable to be used full range without a sub and would be fun to check out such a design.


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post #260 of 277 Old 05-21-2019, 09:49 AM
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As long as both are playing low distortion and no compression. If you play a dome louder than it should than it will sound bad. Same for any driver.

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post #261 of 277 Old 07-05-2019, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon AA
I thought it was pretty well accepted that room treatments for a 2 channel music listening room are going to be quite different than those for a multi-channel/movie room (for many of the same reasons I was describing different speaker attributes take on different levels of importance).


I'm reminded of an interview of Dennis Erskine (designer/installer of $100K+++ home theaters) where he flat out called the two "incompatible" and explained why. Here's the interview, this particular question is around the 55 minute mark:


You Tube




Now, "incompatible" might be a bit harsh as I expects he sets the performance bar for his clients a few notches higher than I'll ever hope to achieve spending mere pennies... But the reasons he describes sound pretty valid to me. Anyway, it's pretty clear he wouldn't think two channel music listening is a good indicator of performance for a multi-channel system.
I got around to listening to this podcast - his initial statement that a theater can't work well for 2 channel and that a 2 channel room can't work for home theater is later clarified to a 2 channel room can't work for theater. His reasoning though is a bit strange, as he feels a theater room doesn't have the reflectivity and ambiance of a 2 channel room, and that surround channels can be used to build that back in. Perhaps if we get into the fringe of 2 channel purity folks, lots of room reflection and smearing is desirable, but for my purposes, I am still focused primarily on the direct sound from the speaker, whether it be for stereo music or surround sound. Stereo imaging, sound stage width, and phase cues are part of the recording, not features of the room. The room is not creating something that isn't there. That said, L & R placement within the room is critical to extract these characteristics properly, and it is true that a lot of theater I see don't have L & R placement that is very suitable for stereo music listening. This is a major reason why I left a 4' space open behind my AT screen, why my mains aren't pushed out all the way to the sides of the room, why I still use toe in, and why my seating is based on the golden triangle.

He went on to tell a story of one of his clients who was willing to build two separate rooms for each purpose, but found the 2 channel in his theater to be good enough.

To bring this back in, soundstage width and height, as well as stereo imaging depth and placement are important not only in 2 channel listening, but also movie watching. When the front soundstage feels larger and more engaging, the entire movie screen seems active with sound, not just 2 or 3 spots on the screen.
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post #262 of 277 Old 08-31-2019, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
Another anomaly about perceived SPL, when distortion is astonishingly low, the volume doesn't immediately strike you as loud until you try to talk to people next to you. Yelling as loud as you can, they can't hear you from 2 feet away. On compression drivers distortion is really low because you aren't even driving with one watt. When you upgrade the bass/subs and distortion drops, you find yourself increasing the tilt lifting the bass because it suddenly takes more SPL to subjectively keep up even though measurements show otherwise. When I switched from 4 15's to 4 18's, I found myself jacking up the low end 10db but the perceived low/high balance was the same.
I have experienced the very thing you mention in my theater! Sometimes I turn to talk to someone sitting on my left or right and it is only then you realize how much you have to raise your voice to get them to hear you. Meanwhile the soundtrack doesn't seem loud at all! I wondered how that could be and now I know.

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post #263 of 277 Old 11-24-2019, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Let's look at the "endgame" system of someone who's forgotten more about audio than everyone who's contributed to this thread (myself certainly included) has ever learned, Dr. Floyd Toole.



Note the L/R speakers (inverted Revel Salon2 - tweeter at the bottom) are mounted on the front wall. (There is a center from the same line under the screen.) That puts the left/right mids and tweeters only about 2ft from the front wall. Also, no "treatments," just normal cultured adult human room accouterments (books, art, area rug etc).

Just noticed this post from a long while back. With all due respect to Dr. Toole, That "endgame system" is a total compromise based on his living situation. Tile floors, mains right up against the front wall, wide speakers firing towards each other instead of toward the listeners, surround speakers placed in front of the main seats, rear heights or atmos speakers a foot above rear surrounds, large glass doors, room open to another room, what looks to be a large window on the left side of the room, and on and on. This is not a room or system Toole would develop from scratch with the intent of high quality music/movie watching, this is a living room he figured out a way to fit a bunch of really good speakers in.

Also, he may say he inverted the mains so the tweeter is on bottom, but the top of the speaker is curved and the bottom of the speaker is flat, so in this picture at least, the tweeters are at the top, right near the ceiling. He doesn't seem to be a fan of the golden triangle either.
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post #264 of 277 Old 11-24-2019, 09:44 PM
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Just noticed this post from a long while back. With all due respect to Dr. Toole, That "endgame system" is a total compromise based on his living situation.
What, you mean sophisticated humans prefer to spend their time in nice looking, well appointed, airy homes than in dark caves? Do tell!

(I know a few people who installed "theaters" in their homes who never use them because it's such a bother to do so.)

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surround speakers placed in front of the main seats,
You should read up on this here. Sides slightly ahead of the listening position is the recommended configuration for multichannel music. For movies, I don't know, whatever. It is unimportant to me. Due to visual masking stimulus basically any speakers that get loud enough will do for movies.

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This is not a room or system Toole would develop from scratch with the intent of high quality music/movie watching, this is a living room he figured out a way to fit a bunch of really good speakers in.
That's not how Dr. Toole bills it. I'm going to presume he knows more than you (or I) do, and take his own words at face value.

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Also, he may say he inverted the mains so the tweeter is on bottom, but the top of the speaker is curved and the bottom of the speaker is flat...
Look more closely. Top and bottom have faceted caps. Here, the flat plinth was removed, as the speaker is not resting on it.

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post #265 of 277 Old 11-24-2019, 11:02 PM
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There are room treatments in that room, across the front and the back wall.

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post #266 of 277 Old 11-25-2019, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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@DS-21 Clearly he is watching movies in there as evidenced by an old school rear projection tv. Definitely a compromised system, again, with all due respect to him. Whether music or movie use, mains up against the wall is not “end game”.
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post #267 of 277 Old 11-25-2019, 09:27 AM
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@DS-21 Clearly he is watching movies in there as evidenced by an old school rear projection tv. Definitely a compromised system, again, with all due respect to him. Whether music or movie use, mains up against the wall is not “end game”.
This thread has certainly exposed a number of quaint superstitions and knowledge gaps!

Why, pray tell, is it "not end game" to have mains up against a wall?

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post #268 of 277 Old 11-29-2019, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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It’s kind of depressing having to answer this on AVS forum, but good for new folks i guess. LCR or just mains right up against front wall will reinforce mids way too much. If you desire that to then EQ mids down to gain mid efficiency, you still have a solid surface between the mains that detrimentally impacts the speakers’ ability to image because of all the immediate reflections.
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post #269 of 277 Old 11-30-2019, 10:38 AM
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LCR or just mains right up against front wall will reinforce mids way too much.
Putting the speakers close to a boundary will reinforce bass ("boundary loading") but won't materially affect midrange output.

With modern room correction, reinforced bass just means higher efficiency/greater headroom.

Furthermore, close wall placement pushes up the SBIR, which (presuming some midrange/treble directivity control) improves fidelity. IOW, it's a win-win with modern speakers and DSP.

See also Lyngdorf's explanation of speaker placement and their RoomPerfect system.

Dr. Toole appears to be aware of progress - imagine that! - whereas you disparage actual experts based on old wives' tales.

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post #270 of 277 Old 11-30-2019, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Unless the midrange is really small and beaming, you will get reinforcement in the mids with the mains right up against the wall. This is all established science.
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