Talk me out of going sealed to ported 18" x 4. - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Talk me out of going sealed to ported 18" x 4.

In the upgrade mood I guess. Updated my side and rear surrounds from in ceiling MTD Aim coax to Fusion-6 Vibes that I've had laying around for a few years. Planning on upgrading my L/C/R from Fusion-12 and Fusion-8 center to Maximus 12LXE's. I listen to about 70% music and 30% HT/TV so I really want to try the Maximus set. These upgrades are mostly curiosity and boredom but I want to try something different.

I am running 4 sealed SI 18"'s off a Berhinger EP4000. They are in the 4.0 CuFt sealed boxes from DIYSG.

I've been running this about 4-5 years and just ready to take things in a different direction if I can get it done.

Is turning the sealed subs to ported going to be worth the effort? I can go 20" W x 20" D x 36" T which will get me 6.5 Cuft internal volume before driver and bracing, so maybe 6 Cuft net volume. I'm a complete rookie with ported boxes but seems to be where the real junkies hang out. Opinions? What do I need to consider?
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post #2 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 05:45 PM
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The si18's need bigger ported boxes. Between 9-11cuft after driver and bracing is about right. Look at the Marty sub thread to get an idea on the right size.
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post #3 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
The si18's need bigger ported boxes. Between 9-11cuft after driver and bracing is about right. Look at the Marty sub thread to get an idea on the right size.
I've looked through that thread. Some of those options showed some smaller boxes like the MartyCube but wasn't sure how that would work with the SI's. I can't get 10 cuft without cutting back to two and what kind of fun is that?
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post #4 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 06:31 PM
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What do you feel is missing from your current system? You aren't going to gain a ton going to ported at that small size. Perhaps adding another amp and feeding them more power will do the trick.

Do you want to sell your Fusion-8 C?

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post #5 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
What do you feel is missing from your current system? You aren't going to gain a ton going to ported at that small size. Perhaps adding another amp and feeding them more power will do the trick.

Do you want to sell your Fusion-8 C?
LOL...what I'm missing? Nothing that I can put my finger on, just have this disease. I keep it under control for a time and then it comes out of remission and the MDF dust starts flying.

I figured I needed bigger boxes to go ported but if its going to need 10cuft I'll just sit tight.

I was thinking of hanging on to the Fusion stuff for another room but I might be in the mood to sell once I get the new gear installed. Its the original Fusion 8 with wave guide vertical. I know later they made a new version but never felt the need to upgrade that.
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post #6 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 06:51 PM
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LOL...what I'm missing? Nothing that I can put my finger on, just have this disease. I keep it under control for a time and then it comes out of remission and the MDF dust starts flying.

I figured I needed bigger boxes to go ported but if its going to need 10cuft I'll just sit tight.
I hear ya on upgraditis, it's contagious!

Do you have a flat response in-room? If so, down to what frequency? Do you ever max out your amp?

You don't need 10cf. I can make a lot better recommendations though after knowing the answers to my questions above.
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post #7 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 06:59 PM
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Talk me out of going sealed to ported 18" x 4.

Just realized you said you are running 4 off of a ep4000. In 4 cuft they need about 1000w each to get to Xmas if I remember correctly. I think another amp would be a good place to start.
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post #8 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I hear ya on upgraditis, it's contagious!

Do you have a flat response in-room? If so, down to what frequency? Do you ever max out your amp?

You don't need 10cf. I can make a lot better recommendations though after knowing the answers to my questions above.
Well...I really have never done any measuring. I use YPAO on my RXV2700 to set everything. It EQ's my subs a bit and runs the Subs at +5 while the Fusion 12 run at -5. My 'gain' on the EP4000 is set about 60-70%. I don't know if it maxes out. And YPAO sets the crossover at 200hz which I find odd. For music I prefer 80hz.

IIRC when I built the subs it was recommended to feed the SI 18's about 400w each. I think that's why I chose the EP4000. Not enough?

The room is about 13 x 18 x 9 so about 2100 cuft. I probably have plenty but just seeing what I might do to bring up the fan factor. Appreciate the responses.
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post #9 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Just realized you said you are running 4 off of a ep4000. In 4 cuft they need about 1000w each to get to Xmas if I remember correctly. I think another amp would be a good place to start.
Maybe another EP4000 vs. the hassle of converting the subs? Can even remember what VC I have on the SI 18"s....I guess I'll have to check that to see what's possible. Thanks for chiming in.
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post #10 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 08:05 PM
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I'd start with a mic and take some sweeps. One thing about sealed subs is that depending on the room, their natural rolloff can make automated room correction "give up" on them a little early by seeing a -3dB point high up, even if they are more capable and could just use a bit of EQ to flatten their response in-room.

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post #11 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I'd start with a mic and take some sweeps. One thing about sealed subs is that depending on the room, their natural rolloff can make automated room correction "give up" on them a little early by seeing a -3dB point high up, even if they are more capable and could just use a bit of EQ to flatten their response in-room.
Can you recommend a mic and software needed to run sweeps? I'll do some checking but never really taken the time to test the system. Might be a good place to start. Honestly when I run YPAO I don't really care for the outcome, at least for music.

I'm also planning on some acoustic panels as the room has nothing right now.
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post #12 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 08:36 PM
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Can you recommend a mic and software needed to run sweeps? I'll do some checking but never really taken the time to test the system. Might be a good place to start. Honestly when I run YPAO I don't really care for the outcome, at least for music.

I'm also planning on some acoustic panels as the room has nothing right now.
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post #13 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
I think another amp would be a good place to start.

Only if he's clipping the amps now.


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Can you recommend a mic and software needed to run sweeps?

OmniMic if you want plug & play, REW if you want to $ave and keep yourself occupied.
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post #14 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 08:57 PM
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And YPAO sets the crossover at 200hz which I find odd.
That is certainly very odd with such capable mains. That's another thing that you'll be able to check when you get a mic by taking some sweeps of your mains to see if you can figure out why YPAO is doing that. Is it setting all of your speakers to 200Hz or just some?

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post #15 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 09:00 PM
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I have a 4cf single sealed UM18 today. In my small 14x14 room it is quite the beast. I am building a "Full Marty" to do a 1:1 comparison over the next couple of weeks. I will post details!

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post #16 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 09:15 PM
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Really i think 18 x 4 is not optimal, perhaps 18 x 8? Keep your sealed and add 4 ported. No joke. If that's extreme how about keep 4 sealed for low end and get 2 pa460s in higher tuned ported configs and get an amp with dsp so you can control things, or a minidsp as an addon.
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post #17 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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That is certainly very odd with such capable mains. That's another thing that you'll be able to check when you get a mic by taking some sweeps of your mains to see if you can figure out why YPAO is doing that. Is it setting all of your speakers to 200Hz or just some?
Setting the LRC and sides to small and rears to large ...still haven't figured that out. Sets the crossover at 200hz...at least at my last test. Everything else it does makes sense but the crossover setting is confusing.
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post #18 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a 4cf single sealed UM18 today. In my small 14x14 room it is quite the beast. I am building a "Full Marty" to do a 1:1 comparison over the next couple of weeks. I will post details!
Do it...I'll be waiting. Honestly I'd just like to try something else for fun but hate to go through some long project only to have a hohum outcome. That's why I like the forum....if its been thought of...someone has tried it already.
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post #19 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 09:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Really i think 18 x 4 is not optimal, perhaps 18 x 8? Keep your sealed and add 4 ported. No joke. If that's extreme how about keep 4 sealed for low end and get 2 pa460s in higher tuned ported configs and get an amp with dsp so you can control things, or a minidsp as an addon.
I knew this thread would bring out the real junkies..... If I had more room I'd consider something more dramatic but I don't have a screen wall to work with. I can change my sub boxes from 4 cuft to 6 cuft by making them 12" taller but then I'm maxed out on height and number of boxes. If the 6 cuft boxes ported won't add much I guess I'll put my table saw back on the shelf.
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post #20 of 34 Old 03-11-2019, 09:29 PM
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4 subs that are 6cft ported can be monsters....its just that particular driver needs a lot of breathing room just like an ultimax, even a bit more.
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post #21 of 34 Old 03-12-2019, 05:18 AM
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I can't get 10 cuft without cutting back to two and what kind of fun is that?
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What do I need to consider?
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post #22 of 34 Old 03-12-2019, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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So checked my sub boxes...Dual 2 Ohm units. So my EP4000 would be running 4 Ohm/side would max out at about 450/sub. Hmmmm.
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post #23 of 34 Old 03-12-2019, 10:03 AM
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if your subs are dual 2 ohm, and you have 4 of them, 2 on each channel, then you either have a 2 ohm or 8 ohm load per channel.

I suggest focusing your energy on why the LCR are being set to small 200hz, and the rears to large. Something is definitely wrong there. Either some measurement error, or worse, something wrong with the xo in the LCR.
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post #24 of 34 Old 03-12-2019, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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if your subs are dual 2 ohm, and you have 4 of them, 2 on each channel, then you either have a 2 ohm or 8 ohm load per channel.

I suggest focusing your energy on why the LCR are being set to small 200hz, and the rears to large. Something is definitely wrong there. Either some measurement error, or worse, something wrong with the xo in the LCR.
I agree on the 200hz xover. I'll rerun. The xover were pre-assembled but I could double check.

Its been a while since I messed with the subs. I started with 2 then added 2 more. So I'd bet I have 8 ohm loads to both sides of the EP4000 which is only about 275W each. I'll start with that. Thanks for the clarification.

Edit...took the time to pull one of the drivers. I've got them running a 2 ohm load to the EP4000 after all.

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post #25 of 34 Old 03-12-2019, 12:56 PM
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Also, if you're going to pull the trigger on a umik for REW, just go ahead and grab a 2X4 miniDSP and save the on shipping and time. If you stay sealed, you can "get more" from your setup by fixing response issues then adding low shelf and BEQ for the movies you do watch.

If you switch to ported, you'll still need a real EQ for protection below enclosure tuning. Plus still be able to work on flattening response and adding BEQ.

Only time I'd say adding a DSP is a waste, is when it doesn't get used or is used without some research and understanding.
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post #26 of 34 Old 03-13-2019, 06:49 AM
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Well...I really have never done any measuring. I use YPAO on my RXV2700 to set everything. It EQ's my subs a bit and runs the Subs at +5 while the Fusion 12 run at -5. My 'gain' on the EP4000 is set about 60-70%. I don't know if it maxes out. And YPAO sets the crossover at 200hz which I find odd. For music I prefer 80hz.

IIRC when I built the subs it was recommended to feed the SI 18's about 400w each. I think that's why I chose the EP4000. Not enough?

The room is about 13 x 18 x 9 so about 2100 cuft. I probably have plenty but just seeing what I might do to bring up the fan factor. Appreciate the responses.
We have the exact same size room. You stated you have 4 subs. Where are they in the room? I have 5 UM Full Marties, but only 4 contribute to actual room spl. The 5th is nearfield that has no measurable changes to room response, just tactile for movies. A friend modeled my room in REW and suggested I load the 4 Marties in the 4 corners. I originally had 2 up front and 3 nearfield. Tactile was great, but there was a lull at the MLP. All the bass was along the back wall. When I moved four of the Marties to the corners of the room, it put all the bass at the MLP, which is just about the center of the room. The lull is now on the back wall. Adding another amp, and moving the subs to the corners (if possible) will likely make a world of difference.The graphs are before and after measurements at the MLP. This is just from moving the subs.
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post #27 of 34 Old 03-13-2019, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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We have the exact same size room. You stated you have 4 subs. Where are they in the room? I have 5 UM Full Marties, but only 4 contribute to actual room spl. The 5th is nearfield that has no measurable changes to room response, just tactile for movies. A friend modeled my room in REW and suggested I load the 4 Marties in the 4 corners. I originally had 2 up front and 3 nearfield. Tactile was great, but there was a lull at the MLP. All the bass was along the back wall. When I moved four of the Marties to the corners of the room, it put all the bass at the MLP, which is just about the center of the room. The lull is now on the back wall. Adding another amp, and moving the subs to the corners (if possible) will likely make a world of difference.The graphs are before and after measurements at the MLP. This is just from moving the subs.
Well I'm kinda locked into all four below the screen. All other real estate is taken with seats. That is a huge improvement in your room. I may see if anything can be moved around.

On another note, I learned a valuable lesson today. As I began to see what my EP4000 was capable of I actually read the manual. Its been 5 years since install, but I don't recall ever looking at it other than input/output wiring.

All the switches were just in the original position meaning I had the Filter on and set to 50hz. Just a quick listen with the filter set to 30 is night and day. Later will try without the filter on but I think I found what I was missing...namely a brain.
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post #28 of 34 Old 03-13-2019, 09:09 AM
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Talk me out of going sealed to ported 18" x 4.
You've been happy with what you have for 5 years, you're obviously happy with it. Your reasons for upgraditis don't come from feeling your lacking anything, but only "curiosity and boredom", don't fix what's not broken out of curiosity and boredom. Sealed vs. ported, I like ported, but it's possible you end up liking what you've been used to for so long better, end up spending time and money on something you don't like as much.

Sincerest apologies, but you did ask to be talked down from it!

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post #29 of 34 Old 03-13-2019, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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You've been happy with what you have for 5 years, you're obviously happy with it. Your reasons for upgraditis don't come from feeling your lacking anything, but only "curiosity and boredom", don't fix what's not broken out of curiosity and boredom. Sealed vs. ported, I like ported, but it's possible you end up liking what you've been used to for so long better, end up spending time and money on something you don't like as much.

Sincerest apologies, but you did ask to be talked down from it!

True across the board. Now that I've discovered my setting error on the EP4000 I think I'll be leaving things alone. I always felt like moves were underwhelming in some low frequencies scenes and having the filter set to 50hz was killing things below that. I'm going to rerun YPAO tonight and take another long listen. No one is talking me out of the Maximus-12's though....lol.
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post #30 of 34 Old 03-13-2019, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpilk View Post
Can you recommend a mic and software needed to run sweeps? I'll do some checking but never really taken the time to test the system. Might be a good place to start. Honestly when I run YPAO I don't really care for the outcome, at least for music.

I'm also planning on some acoustic panels as the room has nothing right now.
UMIK mic and REW software. After running YPAO, I always do manual PEQ tweaking. I wouldn't be able to do that without REW.
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