My sort of DIY project, horizontal curved line array - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 45 Old 03-13-2019, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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My sort of DIY project, horizontal curved line array

***Results and pictures starting at post 33***

Well, some one in the other forum kind of put this idea in my head, I said I thought another way would work better and my brain went....I want to try my way lol.

So I ordered 4 used boston CR6 speakers. I may order 2 more for a total of 6 but im going to start with the 4 speakers and mimmick the Bill Fitzmaurice design then move to 6 if it works out well. In his design it looks like a bunch of MT speakers all just angled differently to make a slight curve

So the thing I dont know is if theres something in his design that messes with time aligning all the drivers or if it just naturally works? I think it would be better then just throwing them all up there pointing straight out to the room and not curved.

Thoughts?

My first 4 will be here friday and ill start with those. Hoping for good results as Im a bit disappointed with my QSC ad-s12 center. I can wire 4 to 8ohm, and 6 to 5.3 ohm or something so my receiver should be good with either setup.

I did a test run with 4 other speakers but they didnt match in size or timbre or tuning freq, but I did notice it didnt sound that bad for the frankenstien thing that it was.

- 6 BA CR6 array center channel, QSC AD-S82 L/R, 4 jbl 8330a surr , 8 jbl 12" subs w/Inuke 6000. JVC rs420, Denon x4000, Sony x800 -

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post #2 of 45 Old 03-13-2019, 05:40 PM
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There is more that goes into it than just putting things in a curve. Are you aware with CBT Line Arrays at all? That's what you'll want to look into. https://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/CBT.php

I believe with CBT Line Arrays they're shaded but not time delays. The nearest one is loudest but as it curves back they get quieter.
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post #3 of 45 Old 03-13-2019, 06:01 PM
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Never heard of a horizontal array, except for subs.

Is it intended only for a single, centered listener?

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post #4 of 45 Old 03-13-2019, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trilkb View Post
Well, some one in the other forum kind of put this idea in my head, I said I thought another way would work better and my brain went....I want to try my way lol.

So I ordered 4 used boston CR6 speakers. I may order 2 more for a total of 6 but im going to start with the 4 speakers and mimmick the Bill Fitzmaurice design then move to 6 if it works out well. In his design it looks like a bunch of MT speakers all just angled differently to make a slight curve

So the thing I dont know is if theres something in his design that messes with time aligning all the drivers or if it just naturally works? I think it would be better then just throwing them all up there pointing straight out to the room and not curved.

Thoughts?

My first 4 will be here friday and ill start with those. Hoping for good results as Im a bit disappointed with my QSC ad-s12 center. I can wire 4 to 8ohm, and 6 to 5.3 ohm or something so my receiver should be good with either setup.

I did a test run with 4 other speakers but they didnt match in size or timbre or tuning freq, but I did notice it didnt sound that bad for the frankenstien thing that it was.
Sounds fun I will sub to see what happens. Now are you talking and ( towards the listening position of ) towards it. I guess i mean more dispersion or more focus on the MLP. I would think that so long as the distance isnt to great from the speaker, say 5 or 8 feet, you should be ok, as long as the distance between speakers isn't huge I wouldn't expect the delay to be terrible. What kind of distance are we talking from MLP to speaker?
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post #5 of 45 Old 03-13-2019, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll be about 10 feet back.

I'm talking like this (attached) I was planning to build a top, bottom, 2 sides and leave the back open for all the ports. Speakers will be as tight as I can get them and maybe sealed between them.

To me that looks like 6 upside down book shelf speakers, the left one helps the listener to the right, the right one helps the left.

I'm curious why the curvature works and you dont get a bunch of problems. I trust BF wouldn't sell a complete POS LOL. But maybe there's some trickery going on?

Attached a picture of my test setup, while it wasn't perfect it didn't make me say "wow, dont ever do that!" Instead I said "damn, with matching speakers this could be the best center I've heard yet!" Lol. In theory 4 to 6 woofers and tweeters is super efficient and less distortion. Mmtmm centers dont work that well, but the same amount of tweeters and woofers is probably loads better at high volume.
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post #6 of 45 Old 03-13-2019, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
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To me that looks like 6 upside down book shelf speakers, the left one helps the listener to the right, the right one helps the left.
I know nothing about speaker design, but wouldn't the curve exacerbate lobing?

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post #7 of 45 Old 03-13-2019, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trilkb View Post
I'll be about 10 feet back.

I'm talking like this (attached) I was planning to build a top, bottom, 2 sides and leave the back open for all the ports. Speakers will be as tight as I can get them and maybe sealed between them.

To me that looks like 6 upside down book shelf speakers, the left one helps the listener to the right, the right one helps the left.

I'm curious why the curvature works and you dont get a bunch of problems. I trust BF wouldn't sell a complete POS LOL. But maybe there's some trickery going on?

Attached a picture of my test setup, while it wasn't perfect it didn't make me say "wow, dont ever do that!" Instead I said "damn, with matching speakers this could be the best center I've heard yet!" Lol. In theory 4 to 6 woofers and tweeters is super efficient and less distortion. Mmtmm centers dont work that well, but the same amount of tweeters and woofers is probably loads better at high volume.
i wouldn't second guess BF either, he is smarter than I. you are right about the distortion, more speakers have to work less to get the same SPL. At 10 feet it shouldn't be an issue. Most of the time you see line array's is for casting sound over a long ish distance with good dispersion. At your distance, if your looking to widen the sound stage you wouldn't need much of a curve at all, almost flat might work. At short distance line arrays are usually about focusing on a single position. But as you already have the speakers coming, try flat across the front and then concave and convex and see which works better. Its certainly interesting.
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post #8 of 45 Old 03-13-2019, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Yup that's kind of the plan. Gonna be some trial and error. I think the fact the are recessed in a cabinet may help some stuff. I need to talk to someone whose built one of his lol.


Is there a way to measure for lobing issues? I have umik 1 and rew.

If it all doesn't work I'll have some great zone 2 speakers for $20 a piece lol.

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post #9 of 45 Old 03-13-2019, 06:52 PM
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trust is a funny creature.
in simple line array talk to just shed some laymans understanding....in a straight array...the length of the line limits the vertical dispersion, increases horizontal. if you turn it on its side, that horizontal becomes vertical. so in a straight array, laid down, it has a narrow horizontal and a broad vertical. Which if you stand up and walk around the sound will be fine, but left and right...

someone mentioned the cbt. now that uses resistors to power shade the array. but the curvature is what gives the dispersion characteristics, well that and the power shading. psychoacoustics meeting physics and db keele playing puppet master. what bill has done, and before keele's cbt, was inverse it, albeit w/o shading. id imagine a fair amount of cancellations as pictured, mostly due to the tweeters being so far apart, but in theory, if a backwards arc increases horizontal dispersion while virtually eliminating floor and ceiling interactions, the inverse could be worth exploring.
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post #10 of 45 Old 03-13-2019, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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So you're saying try the curve like "(" and inverse like ")"?

I found some pics of the bfm and it uses a single crossover so I would imagine all drivers see similar power.

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post #11 of 45 Old 03-13-2019, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
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So you're saying try the curve like "(" and inverse like ")"?

I found some pics of the bfm and it uses a single crossover so I would imagine all drivers see similar power.
Yeah, was wondering about that myself. Whether a convex (top of the curve closest to listeners, with the sides wrapping back away from them) design would be better than a concave (the design in your pics) design.

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post #12 of 45 Old 03-14-2019, 07:26 AM
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Okay, I see what's going on. You aren't making a line array. If you were you'd almost definitely want it concave with the middle driver closest to listener.

) <- What you'd do with a line Array

What you're doing is more like....I don't have a term for it. I know he calls the the "Short Line Array" but it isn't operating on quite the same principles.

( <- What Bill does and you want to do

The line array principle works by being far enough away and having a long enough array that it forms a cohesive wavefront coupled from floor to ceiling (or wall to wall for horizontal). Bill's convex short array is more about making sure you're "in the line of fire" for each speaker. The comb filtering and lobing is supposedly reduced due to the curve bringing their axis closer together, coupled with the top and bottom boards acting as a semi waveguide to combine them.

At least that's my understanding recalling what I've seen him write in the past.

Edit: I should also add, and I hope Mr. Fitzmaurice steps in if I'm wrong, but I thought he went more by "how does it sound" and less by "can I measure lobing" so it may very well lobe or show comb filtering but not be that noticeable from a psychoacoustics standpoint.
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post #13 of 45 Old 03-14-2019, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I like that explanation! makes it sound like it'll work. It may be cheaper to build a bfm short line array, but this is just easier lol, and who knows it may turn out well. If it doesnt work maybe I can stack them on their sides and do a vertical array?

The term waveguide slipped my mind but yes thats why I think they are recessed.

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post #14 of 45 Old 03-14-2019, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
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Yeah, was wondering about that myself. Whether a convex (top of the curve closest to listeners, with the sides wrapping back away from them) design would be better than a concave (the design in your pics) design.
I think both are worth exploring (convex and concave) the cbt array (http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/CBT.php) which is convex, again uses power shading to create a massive horizontal dispersion and a tight vertical coverage. the power shading is via resistors, with the central cluster being ground zero. id be curious with it on its side, what reversing that shading could do, ie the outermost are 0 and shade inward. it would be more of a psychoacoustics approach, or may be complete *****.

as another person mentioned with the concave array, its using a line of sight method to get the horizontal dispersion. far enough back it could work, but I would expect the vertical to be pretty rough so placement is key. in the example of bills mini array, id probably double up the tweeters similar to the ratio on his SLA.

I have like 4 boxes of the fountek fe83 buyouts that ive been planning to use as bedroom/gameroom arrays and have toyed with ways to do both convex and concave while keeping the drivers extremely close together. if I ever get my place remodeled, should have some time to make test boxes and maybe get some real measurements. driver lines would be likely 6-9 drivers per array. still need to order a hundred or so of the apex jr tweeters though. straight arrays with the drivers have been promising
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post #15 of 45 Old 03-17-2019, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Well typical USPS. Supposed to show up yesterday and nothing. Really wanted to cut some wood.

On a positive we did get this accomplished at my dad's. That quadhorn still amazes me. Pant leg shaking while watching Ralph breaks the internet, in a 4500sqft room, from 1 15 on 600 watts.
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post #16 of 45 Old 03-19-2019, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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4 speakers will finally be here today. Cant wait to have a few test listens. Gonna just recess them on my shelf and throw a piece of wood on top to act as the "waveguide" part for now. Im excited because I know what 2 pairs of mismatched speakers did!

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post #17 of 45 Old 03-19-2019, 02:52 PM
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This works.
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post #18 of 45 Old 03-19-2019, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow! For 80 bucks this is the best center channel I've had yet. Possibly beating my old fusion 10s (haven't heard them in awhile though) way better than my qsc ads12. Ran xt32, bumped it up 2db. Watching star wars a new hope bluray and dialogue is awesome. 6 of these very well may happen. 4 are handling my listening volume well. I've got a 3 seater couch and it's good in every seat so far. Xover is at 60hz.
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post #19 of 45 Old 03-20-2019, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Watching crimes of grindelwald....2 more will be purchased asap. Super clear, great Male voices.

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post #20 of 45 Old 03-21-2019, 03:15 PM
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This works.
Hey Rick,
Looks great! Is this one of your commercial designs or can you share design details/measurements etc?
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post #21 of 45 Old 03-22-2019, 06:06 AM
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Hey Rick,
Looks great! Is this one of your commercial designs or can you share design details/measurements etc?
It was a commercial CBT design I did with the help of Don Keele. Ten Dayton ND-105 woofers and thirty Vifa 3/4" tweeters. The tweeters have been discontinued and replaced with a new model.

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post #22 of 45 Old 03-22-2019, 06:13 AM
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those ND woofers are very awesome
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post #23 of 45 Old 03-22-2019, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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It was a commercial CBT design I did with the help of Don Keele. Ten Dayton ND-105 woofers and thirty Vifa 3/4" tweeters. The tweeters have been discontinued and replaced with a new model.
So in this design do you just wire up and go or do you have to do something to make the sensitivity different?

I cant imagine wireing up 30 tweeters and getting a 4-8ohm final load. My head would be spinning

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So in this design do you just wire up and go or do you have to do something to make the sensitivity different?

I cant imagine wireing up 30 tweeters and getting a 4-8ohm final load. My head would be spinning
Series-parallel wiring plus the output is attenuated by resistors as you move outward from the center.

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post #25 of 45 Old 03-23-2019, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Interesting, how do you figure out which resisters?

So basically you run 15 tweeters together is series and then parrallel the 2 sets?

I'm really impressed with what I've come away with for 80 bucks. My center channel search is over I think. Just gotta decide if I want to buy 2 more speakers, which I probably will considering I found them for 40 bucks for the pair shipped.

Since my curve isn't as drastic as yours I'm not sure resisters would benefit me.

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post #26 of 45 Old 03-25-2019, 06:45 AM
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Interesting, how do you figure out which resisters?

So basically you run 15 tweeters together is series and then parrallel the 2 sets?

I'm really impressed with what I've come away with for 80 bucks. My center channel search is over I think. Just gotta decide if I want to buy 2 more speakers, which I probably will considering I found them for 40 bucks for the pair shipped.

Since my curve isn't as drastic as yours I'm not sure resisters would benefit me.
You don't want resistors. The CBT is different from what you have. This goes back to the ) vs ( thing. It isn't so much about amount of curve, it's that you're operating under a different concept. You want every speaker to sound the same so as you move from seat to seat you're in direct fire of one of the speakers and it sounds the same as the ones next to it. In the rightmost seat your hearing the sound from the leftmost speaker in your curve. In center you hear from center. CBT is about building a single wavefront and coupling to the room. I would think resistors would kill the effect you have now.
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post #27 of 45 Old 03-25-2019, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Ah ok. Well I got 2 more speakers coming hopefully. Then just build a cabinet and wire em up to some binding posts for an easy connection.

Ive really been loving this "speaker". Watched boondock saints last night and didnt miss too much even with the accents. Plus the off axis is just as good as on axis.
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post #28 of 45 Old 03-25-2019, 03:31 PM
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Here is the link to Monte Kay's original horisontal CBT center channel, if anyone is interested:

http://www.mfk-projects.com/Home_The...r_speaker.html

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post #29 of 45 Old 03-26-2019, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Well I lost the bidding on the 2 cr6 I wanted to add to make it 6 of them. Noone even likes these damn things anymore lol.

- 6 BA CR6 array center channel, QSC AD-S82 L/R, 4 jbl 8330a surr , 8 jbl 12" subs w/Inuke 6000. JVC rs420, Denon x4000, Sony x800 -
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post #30 of 45 Old 04-06-2019, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Small update, finally ordered 2 more speakers for $60 shipped. Will just need to run to PE to get some stuff and start building.

Puts me at $140 for this center channel so far &#x1f642;
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- 6 BA CR6 array center channel, QSC AD-S82 L/R, 4 jbl 8330a surr , 8 jbl 12" subs w/Inuke 6000. JVC rs420, Denon x4000, Sony x800 -

Last edited by trilkb; 04-06-2019 at 06:49 AM.
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