HTM-8 L/R and Fusion 8 center build - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 132 Old 05-17-2019, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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HTM-8's up and running:



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post #92 of 132 Old 05-17-2019, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Center channel is painted. I need to:
-Caulk seems.
-Mount and wire crossover.
-Install acoustic material
-Install drivers, waveguide, port, terminal

So just final assembly on the center. I'll try to finish it up tomorrow night and then calibrate, or maybe Sunday for calibration.

Still a lot of little things left to do after my LCR are finished. I want to move my AVR off the bookshelf, maybe over in the corner out of the way, together with the sub amp. Might do a couple of floating shelves above the sub. Still need to rewire the speaker for at least one of my subs with 12g. Bought a new Harmony Companion remote...seems to be working well. A button went bad on the old one and too many line of sight issues.
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post #93 of 132 Old 05-18-2019, 01:08 PM
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Nice job on the HTM-8's, those look really good. Better than mine I think....
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post #94 of 132 Old 05-18-2019, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
Nice job on the HTM-8's, those look really good. Better than mine I think....
Dude, yours look really cool in white, first set Ive seen like that!!

Fusion 8 center in progress. Cab painted, caulked, lined with denim, mounting holes drilled, speaker terminal cutout, crossover almost wired(have to look up how to wire woofers), and woofers and waveguide painted matte black. Once they dry I'll wire things up and finish assembly. Hopefully tonight. Really hoping that the coat of paint on the woofers and waveguide will give the face of the speaker a nice uniform look. Was not a fan of the many different shades and gloss levels of speakers, waveguide, port, etc. High gloss waveguide with flat black port, off green woofer cones with flat black dust caps, semi gloss charcoal gray outer gasket etc etc. The woofers were looking a little splotchy so I hit them with another coat. Hopefully they dry a bit more uniform.
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post #95 of 132 Old 05-18-2019, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Little help on the F8 center. AFAIK, woofers are 16 ohm. So + to +, - to - for 8 ohms, right?
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post #96 of 132 Old 05-18-2019, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Little help on the F8 center. AFAIK, woofers are 16 ohm. So + to +, - to - for 8 ohms, right?
Yessir.
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post #97 of 132 Old 05-18-2019, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Project is done. Will calibrate tomorrow.

Here's a couple shots of before and after I painted the woofs and waveguide.



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post #98 of 132 Old 05-18-2019, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I need better lighting for these pics but this is the best I can do with what I have.



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post #99 of 132 Old 05-19-2019, 01:11 PM
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good looking clean tight work

what paint for the CC?. I used the black Rit dye treatment for the 8's in my 88 Special

any plans to move LR into the inner portions of the "bookcase" for a listen EQ session to with less separation?

DIY FAN Denon X4400 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS Sammy 82" 4K/HDR
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
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post #100 of 132 Old 05-20-2019, 02:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
good looking clean tight work

what paint for the CC?. I used the black Rit dye treatment for the 8's in my 88 Special

any plans to move LR into the inner portions of the "bookcase" for a listen EQ session to with less separation?
Thanks, I'm ok with how the finish came out considering how much time and effort I was willing to put into the project. Far from perfect, but they look perfect from a few feet away and back. It's all I have time for. I sprayed the woofers and waveguide with Rustoleum matte black spray paint. I'm 85% happy with the result...the woofer cone is a little splotchy looking but overall I'm happy with the more uniform appearance this gave to the drivers and waveguide. I think it matches up reasonably well with the HTM-8's.

As far as moving the L/R into the inner section on the bookcase, its not out of the question but I hadn't thought about it much. Was hard for me to form an opinion about them Saturday night when I first finished them and hooked them up without room correction and setting up the subs. Very hard to compare sound quality since they don't play low and my previous bookshelf setup sounded extremely good crossed to great subs.
I can say that the center channel was *noticeably* louder and more forward than the L/R, which it should since sensitivity is 98.5dB vs 94dB. When switching from stereo to multi channel initially this did not sound good at all, as the center completely took over and was in your face.

Finally ran Audysey Sunday evening. Couple of interesting results. It set the center channel 4.5 dB lower than the L/R, so excellent correlation with the 94 and 98.5 dB rating of the speakers. Audysey set the crossover for all three at 40 Hz! Initial sweeps without eq revealed that these speakers in my room would indeed be completely flat to 50Hz or so but rolling off quickly below that point. I actually have a substantial hump in the response from 50-200 Hz which of course will be easy for Audysey to smooth out. Here is a quick and dirty first sweep of the Right speaker with no eq from one position on the couch. I know it doesn't tell a lot but its all I have for now. I think it actually looks pretty good for just plopping the speaker into my bookshelf jammed into a corner and running a sweep.


Listening impressions. Once I got the LCR setup with Audysey and a quick and dirty(good but not ideal) sub eq, I did some listening and so far very happy with the results. Subjective impressions can certainly be difficult to gauge accurately as we know, but so far they seem to sound VERY good all the way up to reference and perhaps a bit higher. I didn't do enough listening to really tell where distortion started to set in but I think it is somewhere north of reference. I need some good quality songs/recordings to test it out a bit more. Ran a few movie clips and sounds good. Watched Game of Thrones finale at reference and it was not loud or harsh in the slightest even with a group of 7 who are not home theater buffs. The theme song at the end of the episode played and it was comfortably loud, filled the room with excellent dynamics, sounded big. Didn't seem overly loud until people tried to talk and it was difficult to hear over. So excellent clarity and easy to listen at this level although I do feel it was very quiet at reference compared to the average action movie Blu-Ray(OHF was crazy loud).

The plan now will be to do a lot more measurements, try to show the speaker response after Audysey smoothes out the low end, and maybe get an idea of the average response across all seating. Also would like to do some distortion sweeps up to reference.
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post #101 of 132 Old 05-20-2019, 02:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Low level distortion sweep of Left HTM-8:



Not sure what this tells me...probably need a much higher level sweep. THD was 0.5% at the cursor.
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post #102 of 132 Old 05-20-2019, 08:46 AM
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They look great! What were the factors that made you choose the HTM8 over the Fusion 8 for your L&R?
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post #103 of 132 Old 05-20-2019, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by designosaur View Post
They look great! What were the factors that made you choose the HTM8 over the Fusion 8 for your L&R?

Honestly the biggest over riding factor was the first one:
1) Looks
2) Neo woofer
3) Flat pack
4) SEOS waveguide





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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post #104 of 132 Old 05-21-2019, 10:41 PM
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They turned out very nice. Looking forward to a full review of the HTM8's.

Equipment List: Benq W6000, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Marantz SR7013 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 monoblocks, 7.4.2 Atmos, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, Volt 6 Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, 2 PSA S3600I'S, and 2 UM18-22/iNUKE6000DSP DIY subs.
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post #105 of 132 Old 05-25-2019, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
They turned out very nice. Looking forward to a full review of the HTM8's.

Thanks. So far, pretty happy with them but not ready to give any kind of detailed review yet. Trying to get some compression sweeps done but I'm having trouble with REW on my Mac. I have a strong suspicion the SPL reading is incorrect, much lower than actual SPL. Getting full compression above 6KHz between 85-90 dB, which I know can't be right. The sweep is ear shatteringly loud so I suspect the reading is 15-20dB low.
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post #106 of 132 Old 05-25-2019, 03:42 PM
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@bear123

if you haven't already,
try addressing your issues in the REW thread in set up and chat section,

you're not likely the first and the guys there are very very good . . .

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post #107 of 132 Old 05-27-2019, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Disclaimer: The next paragraph was not an issue with the HTM-8's:

Well well well, got a couple things figured out with the HTM-8's. I attempted compression sweeps a couple times and knew something just wasn't right. Also, a little above reference on music it sounded like distortion was setting in, and I felt like these speakers should be a lot more capable than this. I was maxing out 85-90 dB on compression sweeps before things started looking rough with high distortion and compression setting in.

Soooooo, it turns out, don't run compression sweeps on a Denon AVR with ECO mode on!!!!!!!!!!! Hahaha even at 5 and 10 below reference it was compressing and distorting when compared to running sweeps with Eco mode off.

So I was able to run sweeps a lot higher without a lot of compression setting in and reasonably good distortion. Eco mode will STAY off permanently. Its too easy to forget its on and when I let it rip I want to play to my systems capability. Eco mode was crapping the bed well before reference even with these high efficiency speakers. Explains why I didn't think it sounded clear as I went above reference.

So now another issue has raised its head, although it may not be an issue with actual usage. I was able to run sweeps up to +5 MV which was giving me around 100 dB sweep levels, at which point the AVR would shut down towards the top of the sweep. It's a Denon X3300. It shut down doing sweeps of either L or R speaker at MV+5 and above. This surprises me as these are 8 ohm speakers and should be an easy load to drive. Mic was about 12 ft from the speakers. I theorize that some or a lot of the distortion I'm seeing on the top sweeps(although I don't think it was terribly high) may be from the AVR hitting its power limits, and possibly also from vibrations and such in the room?

The next thing I plan to do at this point is to make sure I am running good 12 gauge wire to both speakers, and see if the extension cord/surge protector I am using for the AVR is up to the task.

I'll post a couple of sweeps just to see if anyone has any feedback or constructive thoughts on anything I might need to improve. This is a single position measurement with no eq and poor placement so don't be too critical on my frequency response. When I get more time I intend to do more of a "listening window" type of measurement to better see FR. Maybe do one across all seating and show an average response as well? I'd also like to get sweeps of the center channel.

So I consider today a great victory as I picked up a good 5-10 dB or more of headroom by turning off dumb ass Eco mode. Watching a movie at -10 MV with Eco mode, it seemed like I was coasting along so it feels like, even though I couldn't get a clean 105 dB sweep, that I should be very capable up to -5MV which is louder than I listen.

Also need to get sweeps in of the Hsu speakers for comparison. I really can't recall where they tapped out, and the main purpose of building these was for increased headroom and dynamics.
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post #108 of 132 Old 05-27-2019, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Left speaker:



Right speaker:

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post #109 of 132 Old 05-27-2019, 01:57 PM
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Does the avr shut down with the fusion center channel sweeps?

I’ve never had my denon avr protect even at absolute max volume with many different speakers.

Did you build your own crossovers? If you wired the xo wrong it would likely trip the avr. A shorted component may work at low levels and trip once voltage reaches the avr’s thresh hold.
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post #110 of 132 Old 05-27-2019, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Samps View Post
Does the avr shut down with the fusion center channel sweeps?

I’ve never had my denon avr protect even at absolute max volume with many different speakers.

Did you build your own crossovers? If you wired the xo wrong it would likely trip the avr. A shorted component may work at low levels and trip once voltage reaches the avr’s thresh hold.
I had Matt(MTG90) build the crossovers. It was the higher frequency portion of the sweep that shut the AVR down on both speakers on three sweeps. Doesn't seem right but not sure what the cause is at this point. That's why I figured I would look at power supply first i.e extension cord/surge protector, then look to make sure I'm using good speaker wire. Easiest things to rule out. I'll try plugging the AVR directly into an outlet and run sweeps again when I get the chance.

FR looks pretty good and quite similar on both speakers so I'm tentatively ruling out a crossover issue. Haven't done sweeps with center channel yet.

Also, I still think the SPL reading I'm getting is low. Just found the sweeps on my Hsu speakers that I ran on a windows laptop and top sweep was close to 105 dB. I can't imagine its possible they would actually play louder than the HTM's so I need to do a comparison sweep on the Mac.

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post #111 of 132 Old 05-27-2019, 02:57 PM
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If Matt did the xo’s then those are fine of course. The HSUs are sensitive speakers so I wouldn’t assume the HTMs are going to best them at max spl. The HTMs can go louder if you use a separate amp. Ultimately you are limited by power with either speaker. I wouldn’t be surprised if the avr could only push 50-75 watts at 8 ohms.

The top end of the HTMs may dip a little in impedance. They aren’t 8 ohms at all frequencies. But still odd to shut down the avr.

The center channel will be louder than the rest. I really like the fusion 8 center.

Maybe try running your sweeps cut off at 8k and see what happens.

Has the avr ever shut down outside of sweeps?
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post #112 of 132 Old 05-27-2019, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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The AVR has never shut down before. X3300 on Audioholics produced 105 watts/channel with two channels driven into 8 ohms with a continuous full power test.

It produced 154 watts CFP-BW into 4 ohms with 2 Chanels driven.

Burst was between 140watts(8 ohms 5 channels) and 255 watts/channel depending on load and # channels driven.

https://www.audioholics.com/av-recei...1/measurements

Based on this I don't know why an impedance dip below 8 ohms would cause it to shutdown. I think the TV shut down also when this happened.

I'll check back once I do a couple sweeps with my other speakers.
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post #113 of 132 Old 05-27-2019, 08:26 PM
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You could try running the sweeps at a faster rate.

If the TV was effected then you might have an AC issue somewhere.

I’m all out of ideas.
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post #114 of 132 Old 05-28-2019, 02:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
You could try running the sweeps at a faster rate.

If the TV was effected then you might have an AC issue somewhere.

I’m all out of ideas.
Thanks for your thoughts so far. More testing tonight.
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post #115 of 132 Old 05-28-2019, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I did some sweeps comparing the HTM-8's to my Hsu speakers. The result: A substantially better frequency response with the HTM's compared to the Hsu's and substantially higher output with lower distortion. Still not 100% sure if the SPL reading I am getting is accurate, I suspect it is low and will get that figured out soon. But for now, here is a comparison of the two speakers at low volume and then close to max output with my available power:




1 dB difference in MV. Due to the HTM's much better response, output is 5-10dB+ higher and with lower distortion.

Based on the MUCH better FR, substantially higher output and lower distortion, I feel like I definitely achieved my goals of more headroom and lower distortion with improved dynamics! But wait, more to come!!! The next post will show what I find to be an incredibly impressive and true to advertised feature of the HTM-8 with the SEOS waveguide.
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post #116 of 132 Old 05-28-2019, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I took sweeps of my left speaker across 6 seating locations on my large sectional. Here is the overplayed response at each location, along with the average response at all seats with the level increased for clarity. Boom! I was very impressed with the extremely even response!!!



Next step, imo, is to run Audyseey using the app so that it eq's below 300 Hz to flatten out the low end response. I'll post final measurements once I get this done as I think it will improve the sound quality a lot.

I still have to solve the issue I had with the AVR shutting down on sweeps above +5 MV but I honestly don't think I will ever get the AVR to shut down on real content. However, I have a couple of things I'm going to try in the upcoming days and weeks.

So far, objectively, I'm very satisfied and impressed with the consistent response from seat to seat, increased capability, lower distortion, and more accurate response. I'll try to get some listening in at spirited volumes now that I have Eco mode turned off.
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post #117 of 132 Old 05-28-2019, 03:14 PM
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left margin is supposed to be in 5 db increments

if you haven't already

start a posting over in the REW thread in the set-up chat section

and letr us know so we can stay tuned

the feedback there will be very constructive for all of us

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post #118 of 132 Old 05-28-2019, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
left margin is supposed to be in 5 db increments

if you haven't already

start a posting over in the REW thread in the set-up chat section

and letr us know so we can stay tuned

the feedback there will be very constructive for all of us
Fixed, was a resolution setting on screen capture.

Last edited by bear123; 05-28-2019 at 03:55 PM.
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post #119 of 132 Old 06-03-2019, 02:02 AM
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So while doing some sweeps tonight, I remembered this thread and decided to do a sanity check for you with my HTM-8's.





Don't pay much attention to the shape of the curve below ~400 hz or so as I have serious SBIR/Room mode issues with no EQ.


Mic was 10 ft from the baffle. I have a Marantz 7012 which is rated at 125 Watts with 2 channels driven into 8 ohms. Those sweeps are starting at -10 going to +15 main volume in 5 db increments. The Marantz never shut down, but it did make some nasty noises at the +15 setting (don't think I'll do that again ). I think it was the Marantz as it was sort of an electronic snapping noise but it was hard to tell as I had my ears plugged (holy FRACK that's LOUD!).


I haven't run a lot of compression sweeps so plenty of people here can probably interpret that much better than I, but I really think we're just running out of amp power. If the speaker was tapped out I wouldn't expect it to do it so evenly--on my +15 db sweep the woofer compresses the same at 80 hz as it does at 800 hz...and the tweeter seems even all the way up. So my guess is that's just the limit of what the amp can do. Since that's a full 20 db louder than I ever listen to anything I think I have plenty of headroom in the current setup. And I'm pretty sure my current sub will give up long before those levels are reached.
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Last edited by Jon AA; 06-03-2019 at 02:13 AM.
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post #120 of 132 Old 06-09-2019, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Still don't feel confident that my SPL levels are correct when measuring with REW. I downloaded the NIOSH SPL app onto my iPhone which, from what I can gather, is likely one of the most accurate SPL meters for phones as a lot of testing and research was done to calibrate this SPL meter as accurately as possible. It is only available for iPhones as they all use the same mic and can therefore be calibrated more accurately than android phones which use many different mics.

Anyway, using C weighting in the app, I was reading 5 dB higher than the reading I was getting with REW. Based on this, it appears I may be up 5 dB compared to the reading I am getting from REW. This does put me closer to where I felt I should be with the HTM's, but I'm still not highly confident. Just got back from an out of town trip so I still plan to resolve this issue in order to make sure I am getting accurate readings.

Relocated my equipment today....still have a little work to do but 95% finished. Here's a few shots of what I did.

Before:

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