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post #1 of 18 Old 04-09-2019, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Sub modeling and EQ questions

I have 4x cx1200's I got for $30 each a while back that I haven't used yet. In winisd, I can put 4 of them in 7ft^3 with 1000 watts and stay just under xmax. This gives me around 109db at 20hz. But if I use the same volume with a slot port 24" wide by 30" long tuned to 20hz I can apparently hit 118db at 20hz. The enclosure can't be any bigger. This keeps port velocity under 17m/s, and that port is doable. This only works if I apply a high pass filter at 20hz to stay under xmax.

I don't know how to apply a high pass filter. Do the Berry amps that come with dsp allow for this? Or is there another option besides getting the amp with dsp? I don't think I would need any EQ with the sealed setup because I'm already at xmax on the low end in 7ft^3. I have never used any EQ before, I used to just run a single lilmike F20 and let it do it's thing.

There is also the possibility of getting 4 more of these subs for sealed, but only if they go on sale again. That's the most I can fit with WAF (and also my own acceptance), this is in our living room.

Bonus question: I'll also be building 3 HTM-12s for a 3.1 setup. Do I need to EQ these? I'm willing to do some reading and learn to EQ if someone points me in the right direction.
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post #2 of 18 Old 04-09-2019, 10:37 AM
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congrats on the 3 x HTM12 decision.

how they EQ - it depends

what equipment do you have

and

describe /post pics > the room

DIY FAN Denon X4400 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS Sammy 82" 4K/HDR
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
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post #3 of 18 Old 04-09-2019, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doodoobutter View Post
I have 4x cx1200's I got for $30 each a while back that I haven't used yet. In winisd, I can put 4 of them in 7ft^3 with 1000 watts and stay just under xmax. This gives me around 109db at 20hz. But if I use the same volume with a slot port 24" wide by 30" long tuned to 20hz I can apparently hit 118db at 20hz. The enclosure can't be any bigger. This keeps port velocity under 17m/s, and that port is doable. This only works if I apply a high pass filter at 20hz to stay under xmax.

I don't know how to apply a high pass filter. Do the Berry amps that come with dsp allow for this? Or is there another option besides getting the amp with dsp? I don't think I would need any EQ with the sealed setup because I'm already at xmax on the low end in 7ft^3. I have never used any EQ before, I used to just run a single lilmike F20 and let it do it's thing.

There is also the possibility of getting 4 more of these subs for sealed, but only if they go on sale again. That's the most I can fit with WAF (and also my own acceptance), this is in our living room.

Bonus question: I'll also be building 3 HTM-12s for a 3.1 setup. Do I need to EQ these? I'm willing to do some reading and learn to EQ if someone points me in the right direction.
Personally, I'd just go get 4x more sealed. They'll go on sale again. I'm interested in how a ported box with these turns out though.

I EQ my 3 HTM-12's, sort of. I let Yamaha do it's setup with YPAO, then I copy the results to "manual PEQ" and tweak it from there using REW to show me what's going on. The Yamaha lets you adjust PEQ filters (Freq, Gain, Q) for each speaker. The frequencies are limited however. Anyway, it always ends up better then it was before tweaking.
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post #4 of 18 Old 04-09-2019, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doodoobutter View Post
Do the Berry amps that come with dsp allow for this?
Yes.

Quote:
Or is there another option besides getting the amp with dsp?
Use outboard standalone DSP, like a MiniDSP, or the Dayton DSP-408. Pro offerings include the dbx DriveRack family, and the Berry DCX2496 knockoff. There are more expensive options, but they're overkill for sub duty.

When shopping for features, consider the sub placement in the room, and how much delay you might need for integration. You'll also want a separate channel for each sub.

It could be done in the analog domain with active filters, but they won't be as fun and versatile as DSP. If you don't need too steep of a slope, it could even be done passively with Fmods (least versatile, and you'd want to verify that they work as expected in your setup). Worst option would be implementation by a passive crossover at the speaker level, very low frequency means big expensive components, and more of them the steeper the slope you desire. Analog solutions almost certainly won't have the ability to delay for sub placement, although fancier units might have a phase control for integration with the mains.

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post #5 of 18 Old 04-09-2019, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, I was at work. First off, I noticed diysoudgroup has a new speaker the "HT-12" for a little cheaper. Does anyone know what you miss out on with the cheaper design?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
congrats on the 3 x HTM12 decision.

how they EQ - it depends

what equipment do you have

and

describe /post pics > the room
I'll be using berry amps, possibly with dsp. I'm going to get the cheapest refurbished yamaha amp with preouts. My current receiver is old and doesn't pass through 4k. We have a P75-F1 Vizio that will be mounted above the subwoofer TV stand. I'll attach pics of the room. It's not my stuff, it's from the listing before we bought the house. As you can see, it is large and open to the rest of the house. Not counting on any room gain here. Also not sure if this weird layout of the room is going to cause any problems with sound.

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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
Personally, I'd just go get 4x more sealed. They'll go on sale again. I'm interested in how a ported box with these turns out though.

I EQ my 3 HTM-12's, sort of. I let Yamaha do it's setup with YPAO, then I copy the results to "manual PEQ" and tweak it from there using REW to show me what's going on. The Yamaha lets you adjust PEQ filters (Freq, Gain, Q) for each speaker. The frequencies are limited however. Anyway, it always ends up better then it was before tweaking.
I really wish I bought 8, because I would go sealed all the way with 8. I thought I'd build another disguised box against the wall behind the couch to look like a table for pictures and what not. It would get me extension into the teens and match the TV stand. But I don't want to bet on them going on sale again, and I want to start building now. So if they go on sale, it'll be a stand behind the couch, ported. Or I could seal the ports on the current one and go all sealed. 4 of these subs sealed doesn't compare to the f20, but ported does so that's what I'm going to have to do for now.

I like your method of Eq on the cheap. Can you link me a good guide for REW that I can use to copy your method? And what hardware do you use? I assume you need a mic or something?

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Originally Posted by fill35U View Post
Yes.



Use outboard standalone DSP, like a MiniDSP, or the Dayton DSP-408. Pro offerings include the dbx DriveRack family, and the Berry DCX2496 knockoff. There are more expensive options, but they're overkill for sub duty.

When shopping for features, consider the sub placement in the room, and how much delay you might need for integration. You'll also want a separate channel for each sub.

It could be done in the analog domain with active filters, but they won't be as fun and versatile as DSP. If you don't need too steep of a slope, it could even be done passively with Fmods (least versatile, and you'd want to verify that they work as expected in your setup). Worst option would be implementation by a passive crossover at the speaker level, very low frequency means big expensive components, and more of them the steeper the slope you desire. Analog solutions almost certainly won't have the ability to delay for sub placement, although fancier units might have a phase control for integration with the mains.
This is a little over my head. So I can set a HPF with built in DSP with a berry amp. When it comes to sub placement, they will all be directly under the TV, downfiring. This can't be changed for asthetic reasons. What do you mean when you say, "If you don't need too steep of a slope?" Are you talking about the HPF, or boosting low frequency? If I can keep the subs from bottoming out with the built in DSP with the berry amps than I shouldn't need anything else. If you are talking about boosting dips between 30hz and 80hz I might need something more advanced than the built in DSP?
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post #6 of 18 Old 04-09-2019, 10:04 PM
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"I'm going to get the cheapest refurbished yamaha amp with preouts."

not knowing your budget but be sure to check out A4less . . .

this may be a good fit for the TV , 4k, and EQ, AND BEYOND

HTH

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post #7 of 18 Old 04-09-2019, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doodoobutter View Post
This is a little over my head.
Sorry, just trying to be thorough. Since you're going with the Behringer amps with DSP, the rest doesn't matter much anyhow.

Quote:
So I can set a HPF with built in DSP with a berry amp.
Yes.

Quote:
When it comes to sub placement, they will all be directly under the TV, downfiring. This can't be changed for asthetic reasons.
But in this thread you've been talking about adding other subs down the road. You'll want the ability to add delay to integrate those, even if you can get by without it at the moment. You still might need delay/phase controls to cross over to your mains, even if subs and mains are equidistant from the main listening position.

Quote:
What do you mean when you say, "If you don't need too steep of a slope?" Are you talking about the HPF, or boosting low frequency? If I can keep the subs from bottoming out with the built in DSP with the berry amps than I shouldn't need anything else.
I'm talking about the HPF. Beyond 24dB/octave slope is more difficult to implement as an analog active filter, beyond 12dB/octave as an analog passive filter(Fmods at line level), and a 20Hz passive crossover (speaker level) is expensive at only 6dB/octave and gets worse from there.

Quote:
If you are talking about boosting dips between 30hz and 80hz I might need something more advanced than the built in DSP?
The last thing you want to attempt is to boost a dip caused by a room mode. All you'll do is make the sound cancel itself harder, and make the amp and speaker work a lot harder while the dip remains. You can cut down peaks, though(the Berry DSP should be fine). With just one sub you can move the sub or the listening position to move the dip frequencies, and you might get lucky with a tolerable response. But you really want another sub or two in another location(s) to fill in those dips. Especially for folks in the other listening positions.

BTW, lovely room!

Sources/processing: stack of stuff that if it isn't vintage now, it will be soon!
Amps: stacks and stacks of old iron
Main speakers: big DIYSG
Surrounds: Bose graveyard
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post #8 of 18 Old 04-11-2019, 02:14 AM
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Mini-DSP all the way! They are $205 dsp and have highpass, eq filters, delay, etc.. All programmable from your computer.
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post #9 of 18 Old 04-11-2019, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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@fill35U , thanks, the room sold us the house! If I go with more subs in a different location, I can add a separate delay if the receiver has 2 different outputs correct? I'm looking at this one specifically: https://www.accessories4less.com/mak...eceiver/1.html

This receiver also comes with some type of dsp. I didn't know receivers were doing that now. I can't find much information on it. I looked at the user manual and it seems pretty limited but I'm not sure. Anyone use the built in dsp? I don't want to get the berry amps with dsp if the receiver can do it. I don't really have a budget, but that's a waste of $100.

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Originally Posted by audioholic1224 View Post
Mini-DSP all the way! They are $205 dsp and have highpass, eq filters, delay, etc.. All programmable from your computer.
I looked into these, but I don't know if I really need it. The built in dsp on the behringer amps might be all that I need.
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post #10 of 18 Old 04-11-2019, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doodoobutter View Post
@fill35U , thanks, the room sold us the house! If I go with more subs in a different location, I can add a separate delay if the receiver has 2 different outputs correct? I'm looking at this one specifically: https://www.accessories4less.com/mak...eceiver/1.html

This receiver also comes with some type of dsp. I didn't know receivers were doing that now. I can't find much information on it. I looked at the user manual and it seems pretty limited but I'm not sure. Anyone use the built in dsp? I don't want to get the berry amps with dsp if the receiver can do it. I don't really have a budget, but that's a waste of $100.



I looked into these, but I don't know if I really need it. The built in dsp on the behringer amps might be all that I need.
The Yamaha's will let you manually add and tweak EQ for each speaker but it's limited for subwoofers (I think they give you 4, already chosen, frequencies you can adjust). The Behringer will do everything you need. My Yamaha (A2070) has two subwoofer outputs that have their own independent delay settings (which I use). I'm not sure if the 781 does, but I'd be surprised if it didn't.

With regards to a previous question you had, by all means, you need to go get the REW software (free, but donations welcome). It's indispensable. The most convenient microphone is the UMIK-1. Best $100 you'll ever spend in this hobby.

Go look in the Audio Setup forum here. There's a popular thread on REW. One of the guys that's always super-helpful, AustinJerry, has a guide for REW that he's authored. I think it's linked in his signature. You can go check that out first.
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post #11 of 18 Old 04-11-2019, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. I'll go with a behringer amp with dsp. Should I also get the amp with dsp for the mains? I'm not sure if I would need to adjust anything with them. I'm going to start messing around with REW after I finish building everything.

Another question. I have built folded horns, and enclosures with round ports. This will be my first time using slotted ports. I've been reading to keep it under a 1:8 ratio. I assume this means width x height (not length). I've changed my port size that was mention in the OP. So as long as I keep it under that ratio, does it matter if I incorporate a 90 degree bend? Winisd is giving me a port velocity of 13m/s under the 20hz tuning so I think I should be good, but I didn't know if the right angle bend would increase it.
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post #12 of 18 Old 04-11-2019, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doodoobutter View Post
Thanks. I'll go with a behringer amp with dsp. Should I also get the amp with dsp for the mains? I'm not sure if I would need to adjust anything with them. I'm going to start messing around with REW after I finish building everything.

Another question. I have built folded horns, and enclosures with round ports. This will be my first time using slotted ports. I've been reading to keep it under a 1:8 ratio. I assume this means width x height (not length). I've changed my port size that was mention in the OP. So as long as I keep it under that ratio, does it matter if I incorporate a 90 degree bend? Winisd is giving me a port velocity of 13m/s under the 20hz tuning so I think I should be good, but I didn't know if the right angle bend would increase it.
I'll let a smarter person answer the question about port dimensions.

You *can* use the Behringer for mains, people do, and are happy with it. I'm still uncomfortable using a class D amplifier for my main speakers; right or wrong (I know they've gotten better).
The Yamaha's do plenty good on their own for EQ. Run the embedded setup software, YPAO. It does a good job. I always run REW afterwards though to see what it did and find a few places for manual PEQ tweaking and the Yamaha lets you do that too. No need to add an additional DSP for the mains beyond what's already in the Yamaha.

Just to add to that last part. Some people might take exception to me stating that all you need is Yamaha's YPAO and it's manual EQ. I'm not really saying that. Other AVR's offer their own setup and room correction firmware and are better than YPAO. I'm just saying that no matter what AVR you have with whatever room correction firmware it has, you don't really need to add an additional DSP for your mains. You could even go all-out and get Dirac Live embedded in your AVR. For me, the Yamaha does a fine job.
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post #13 of 18 Old 04-11-2019, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doodoobutter View Post
Should I also get the amp with dsp for the mains?
I wouldn't use a *Behringer* Class D amp for mains, if that's what you're asking. And although it *might* help a little to EQ your mains down low, you really don't want to try to correct anything above ~200Hz in a typical room. Most folks don't bother with the mains. Basic broad "tone controls" can be useful, but preferably on a case-by-case basis for different source material.

Quote:
Another question. I have built folded horns, and enclosures with round ports. This will be my first time using slotted ports. I've been reading to keep it under a 1:8 ratio. I assume this means width x height (not length). I've changed my port size that was mention in the OP. So as long as I keep it under that ratio, does it matter if I incorporate a 90 degree bend? Winisd is giving me a port velocity of 13m/s under the 20hz tuning so I think I should be good, but I didn't know if the right angle bend would increase it.
WinISD doesn't model slot ports quite right, the inside end opening along a cabinet wall effectively makes the port longer. So plan for the final tune being a little lower than WinISD predicts (30% lower?). There's info in past threads about this. Round ports, flared ports, and radiused bends all reduce turbulence and losses. An engineering rule of thumb I've seen is that every 90 degree bend is equivalent in losses to 10 feet of pipe...13m/s should be plenty slow enough that as-is you won't have to worry about chuffing or compression.

Sources/processing: stack of stuff that if it isn't vintage now, it will be soon!
Amps: stacks and stacks of old iron
Main speakers: big DIYSG
Surrounds: Bose graveyard
Subs: a bunch
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post #14 of 18 Old 04-11-2019, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fill35U View Post
I wouldn't use a *Behringer* Class D amp for mains, if that's what you're asking. And although it *might* help a little to EQ your mains down low, you really don't want to try to correct anything above ~200Hz in a typical room. Most folks don't bother with the mains. Basic broad "tone controls" can be useful, but preferably on a case-by-case basis for different source material.
Agree with this. Full DSP on all speakers may have an impact on a dedicated, well treated room, but is probably otherwise just fine with your AVR's correction algorithm. Maybe with some tweaks...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fill35U
WinISD doesn't model slot ports quite right, the inside end opening along a cabinet wall effectively makes the port longer. So plan for the final tune being a little lower than WinISD predicts (30% lower?). There's info in past threads about this. Round ports, flared ports, and radiused bends all reduce turbulence and losses. An engineering rule of thumb I've seen is that every 90 degree bend is equivalent in losses to 10 feet of pipe...13m/s should be plenty slow enough that as-is you won't have to worry about chuffing or compression.
I had read quite some time ago that WinISD overcalculated port length by ~15%. I have built my subs with port length at .88 of WinISD's calculations since then, and they have measured within 1 - 2Hz of model at the MLP. I'm good with that so I continue to use that calculation.
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post #15 of 18 Old 04-14-2019, 08:49 AM
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Don't be overly worried about port velocities if you're tuning fairly low. Model a few commercial subwoofers and the port velocities will shock you. And if you bother to look at a few measured systems at data-bass, even a grossly undersized port offers significant low end extension benefits. I think it's generally worth it to go after a lower tun (within reason) than to take a higher tune with lower port velocities.



Also, the DSP amps are useful even if you don't use the DSP since they have a limiter built in. You can apply whatever boost or cuts you need, and not have to worry about blowing things up. Of course, you could also just use a less powerful amp, but what fun is that? Even with a minidsp I tend to think the DSP in the amp is still worth having.
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post #16 of 18 Old 04-14-2019, 08:50 AM
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To clarify: Grossly undersized would be with one or more ports plugged.
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post #17 of 18 Old 04-18-2019, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey, one last (2 part) question about my living room. I have been toying with the idea of building 3 more f-20s to go with my current one instead of building the 4x 12s. I would put them behind the wall that the TV is on and cut holes for the mouths of the horns. I always wanted 4 in a basement like MKtheater did but it's not going to work with my space.

1) How loud would they be outside? They would be sitting in a 3 season screened porch. My neighbors aren't close, but if I'm pumping 120db 30hz outside it might be too much.

2) What about my large windows? I love overkill, but I'd hate to replace a 10ft window...
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post #18 of 18 Old 04-18-2019, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Shot down. Going with the 4x 12s. But out of curiosity, would 4x horns damage windows?
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