Excursions Masters/EQ Masters advise - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 33 Old 04-15-2019, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Exclamation Excursions Masters/EQ Masters advise

Finally got around to calibrating my subs more today, but im unsure their excursion usage lol.
WinISD does not have shelf filters and I dont know how to model all this data except PEQ in WinISD.

Looking for gurus help me figure out if im safe or not.

Subs are RSS390HF, in 4.3FT2 sealed - loosely but completely filled with polly fill .
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post #2 of 33 Old 04-15-2019, 08:23 AM
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To model a shelf filter simply add a boost equal to the filter at the lowest frequency you will use...i.e. add 10db boost at 10hz, or 5hz. Example +10db boost at 10hz, q1, or q10, q not real important but it shows you what the excursion does at that hertz.
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post #3 of 33 Old 04-15-2019, 08:28 AM
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If you post your REW raw measurement before EQ we can help more. Im not sure thats the most efficient use of PEQ but again hard to tell without the raw measurement of all the subs combined.
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post #4 of 33 Old 04-15-2019, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I dont have rew up and running as im about to head out to work. I only added PEQ as per REW- this should be all 4 subs (pairs) after eq
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post #5 of 33 Old 04-15-2019, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Filters 3-8 are REW
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post #6 of 33 Old 04-15-2019, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
q1, or q10, q not real important but it shows you what the excursion does at that hertz.
Q is very important and you can have q values below 1 and above 10 in most software, just perhaps not inukes...

The REW and inuke charts cannot show excursion; and are mildly-related at best.

First off 3db is not a doubling of excursion, it is a 41% increase,
and it is even less at higher power levels...
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post #7 of 33 Old 04-15-2019, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I just hope i am not running stupid stuff- Havent used sealed in years
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post #8 of 33 Old 04-15-2019, 02:31 PM
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Q is only suggested in my post as a quick way to check excursion. Im a logical thinker. You want to find where you max excursion. If adding a shelf filter modeling in winisd is easy imo just model that low end filter as a single frequency boost. To be more accurate we need the raw sweeps to work from.

You did nothing wrong remy. We can do a lot better as an avs group project very easily.

The earlier comments in the other thread about placement blows away this issue though. This step is very easy to improve...but the limitations on improvement are set by how good the starting point is.

It could be great now, but with the raw sweeps or an average of the raw sweeps we can quickly flatten out the curve.

To see how well your placement is, multiple sweeps at different positions is key. It shows how the subs aew summing together. If the curves mimic each other, where the peaks and dips and similar, we've got a bingo.
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post #9 of 33 Old 04-15-2019, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Ill take Measurements when I can- and post them. Hopefully kids let me in the AM

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post #10 of 33 Old 04-15-2019, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
I just hope i am not running stupid stuff- Havent used sealed in years

I would immediately turn off the High-pass filter at 20hz. It's not necessary with sealed subs and it's fighting the filters at 20hz. I also question the value of the low pass at 250hz. You should let your AVR sort that out or you may wind up with phase anomalies in the midbass.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmaguy View Post
I would immediately turn off the High-pass filter at 20hz. It's not necessary with sealed subs and it's fighting the filters at 20hz. I also question the value of the low pass at 250hz. You should let your AVR sort that out or you may wind up with phase anomalies in the midbass.



Thanks- As soon as I get home from work im shutting them off lol. As mentioned I only had HPF on because WinISD freaked me out and "simulated" Xmax goes through the roof starting at 33hz
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post #12 of 33 Old 04-15-2019, 06:46 PM
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DEQ 1 is good. I like mine at 25hz.


You should use a PEQ filter to lower 23hz rather than use DEQ.


For DEQ 2, I like to use a LP6 filter at 200hz to create a "loudness" control during quiet listening. Combined with the above DEQ, it means bass doesn't sound thin when the volume goes down. Works great.

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post #13 of 33 Old 04-15-2019, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
Thanks- As soon as I get home from work im shutting them off lol. As mentioned I only had HPF on because WinISD freaked me out and "simulated" Xmax goes through the roof starting at 33hz

To control maximum excursion, you could use the current limiter. It's supposed to be fairly accurate.


33hz is really high. You should screenshot your Winisd for us. You may need a smaller box.

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Originally Posted by bimmaguy View Post
To control maximum excursion, you could use the current limiter. It's supposed to be fairly accurate.


33hz is really high. You should screenshot your Winisd for us. You may need a smaller box.



WinISD says "best" box for QT 707 is 4.7FT i made mine 4.3. the only way i dont blow past excursion without the HP is only using 150W which i take a huge SPL hit
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post #15 of 33 Old 04-16-2019, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
WinISD says "best" box for QT 707 is 4.7FT i made mine 4.3. the only way i dont blow past excursion without the HP is only using 150W which i take a huge SPL hit

I thought maybe you input a number wrong, so I went to the manufacturers spec sheet and input TS one by one. I came up with the same numbers you did.


In my opinion, the best box for that driver is 3.0 cu ft. It's smaller, still allows a reasonable Q of 0.804, and controls excursion up to 350 watts. It also allows for significantly more midbass efficiency (+2db).


If you've already built your boxes, no worries. They're a bit bigger than necessary, but you still achieve the maximum low bass SPL possible with that driver. Going to 40 cu ft wouldn't increase SPL one lick, but your power handling would go down to about 60 watts and you would lose a whole 6db efficiency.


If you find yourself hurting for more midbass, throw a few books or bricks or something into your box to increase efficiency. Otherwise, set a current limiter at 200W (210W is where things start to get really ugly) and enjoy your awesome subs!
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post #16 of 33 Old 04-16-2019, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Ah crap- Well that sucks....Yeah they are already built. So I can open them up and glue in some scrap MDF to shrink the internal volume? Seems like id have to add a lot of material inside to drop 1.3FT.



3/4" MDF is only $22 a sheet here, so maybe i'll rebuild them.
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post #17 of 33 Old 04-16-2019, 05:05 PM
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So your model was right from what another poster says (im away from my pc). What exactly bothers you about this...think about it, you can only use so much power with these because you built large efficient boxes. With smaller boxes you can squeeze a few more dbs out and you sacrifice some low end and use a lot more watts getting there.

I will always trade some spl for extension. Extension imo is the prize...adding spl above 25hz can be done so cheap...a few 29 jbls if need be, pa460s etc.

We want to see raw sweeps to know exactly how much boost you need to have flat extension to potentially 5hz. Trust me we can easily create a better response...it takes some time patience and consideration to get there.

I have sealed ultimaxes (and ported, 10 12 ,15 and 18s). I have 10" ultimaxes in sealed 3cft boxes. PE sells a 1.25cft box which is "ideal". F that. My 3cft just gives me a bunch more extension. I had planned to make ported but ended up sealed and guess what? Response sealed is so good in my room the response rises below 10hz without boost. I never knew this because i never tried sealed in this room.

Compare it to a model at 1.25cft the only difference is I can use less power and get lower extension. Cost? Sacrifice a db or 2 of max capability.

If you are like me i dont want to maximize spl capability. Better to keep everything comfortably in the low or no distortion zone, vs a few more db with high distortion.

In fact if u think about it, what good is say 120db at 50hz if you cant get more than 95db at 20? So we need to know exactly what it takes -- your room size, your placement, your seating...how much boost and cut makes it flat?

Placement. Constructive summing. Then PEQ. Then Audyssey.

Its there man. Ive been down these roads dont stress you can use what you got and soon enough realize you did a good thing building the correct size box!

Its very possible a box too small would not get you to flat down to 10 or 5hz. This box size guarantees you will. The question is only, what can you get out of your setup when calibrated perfectly? Mad you might not use your full amp? Build 2 more. Tell me why thats bad...

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post #18 of 33 Old 04-16-2019, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Its there man. Ive been down these roads dont stress you can use what you got and soon enough realize you did a good thing building the correct size box!
...

Hey,



Thanks for encouraging words . I had them in ported cabs and I felt like they sounded like garbage! Last night I set rear subs(vbss) to 4Ms delay, remove HP filter on these and omg the destruction is insane. I LOVE these in sealed cabs. I sit about 8' from each 390HF that are placed in the front corners of the room which is 13'X11'.(Dont mind mess lol rearranging & 3 kids). The one "sweep" posted is with all those stupid settings on so im betting ill have better low end now with them off. I'll take a few sweeps in AM and post them. I dont leave work till 11:30PM so hard for me sometimes to get stuff done.



Extension is my goal- I want to be flat to as low as I can. As is when doing demos this morning- THe room shakes and the couch as tons of tactile impact and I want to get the most of it all. Setting a reminder for my self, to shut off ALL settings and take a sweep of both subs individually and then together so you have something to go on. For now i'll just set them to 200W so they should be ok excursion wise.



The plan is to add two more of these sealed monsters when I can and retire the VBSS- Yes they have amazing Midbass but Jesus the size needed is to much. Ill store them in a closet untill we get a bigger place/buy and then turn them into couch riser subs hahaha. I prefer the feel and sound of sealed anyway.



Let me know and specific details of what you want or would like beyond the raw sweep of each and then as a pair- Better to "KISS" with me lol.
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post #19 of 33 Old 04-16-2019, 07:47 PM
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You can boost the mid-bass to gain back the lost SPL as long as you are that many db below the model-modelled maximum power handling / SPL.

The question is: is it worth it though...

Most sealed boxes don't need a HPF unless you made the box too big for the excursion profile,
in fact most sealed boxes need a ULF shelf boost to "get flat" to single digits. Most find that the extra extension is worth the reduced max SPL caused by doing so.

One of the MAJOR points of having as-many cones as you can afford (or that the police/wife will tolerate) is to reduce the THD to zero even WHEN playing back a scalp-peeling SPL.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
I dont leave work till 11:30PM so hard for me sometimes to get stuff done.
At least you even get to be at home. I haven't seen or heard a subwoofer in 4 months and counting...
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post #20 of 33 Old 04-16-2019, 09:02 PM
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Remy we can look at each sub but likely easier for you to see on your own if they are summing well.

Set 3 seating positions for the sweeps. Take a sweep at each with just one sub on. Have REW average the 3 for you and save it.

Play a 2nd sub now with the first, take the same 3 sweeps, average them and save this result.

Compare the averages, make sure you see a consistent improvement in spl across most of the range. That tells you the 2 work well together.

Repeat adding 3rd sub, then 4th. Now they all sum well, its EQ time.

When I do PEQ, I sweep the same 8 positions I use when I run Audyssey. This helps to insure Audyssey compliments the PEQ.

So this is a lot of sweeps. Im most interested in seeing an average of the 8 sweeps you take take after the 4 work well together. So even just that one sweep average is all you need to post, the others are optional. If you arent up for 8 sweeps, do at least 3, the LCR seating positions.

Figuring a flat response is relatively easy from there. The work is mostly getting them to work together first.
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post #21 of 33 Old 04-17-2019, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Set 3 seating positions for the sweeps. Take a sweep at each with just one sub on. Have REW average the 3 for you and save it.

Play a 2nd sub now with the first, take the same 3 sweeps, average them and save this result.
.

Here is 1 sub sweeped in 3 locations then "averaged" and then both of the HF at same 3 locations and then averaged, and them both averaged in one image.

ALL DSP/EQ/Inuke settings were turned off, set to 200W(40.1) audyssey off and volume at -20 on the avr.

rust/orange color one is just L sub, -greenish one is both.

The other two subs are VBSS- both running on one channel of a bridged 1000DSP- both 4'behind couch and about 2'apart so ill measure them as 1
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post #22 of 33 Old 04-17-2019, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is the VBSS sweeped in 3 locations then averaged, and then all 4 subs same 3 sweep locations and averaged. I dont have 8 locations really for sweeping lol

The brownish one is just VBSS

sorry ig graphs are lame- Even on a 92" projected screen i sent limits but it would stay on graph with 5db increments
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post #23 of 33 Old 04-17-2019, 08:04 AM
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Remy nice job, its all clear in what u posted.

The only issue that should be addressed before PEQ is the summation in the 60 to 80hz range.

For the hf subs, how far are they from the MLP...are they the same distance or different? We may want some delay between those 2 as a starting point. Adding the 2nd hf shows a huge difference in response between the 2 in that range. We want the final result of all 4 to have a smoother curve requiring less peq, it looks like this issue may exist with the position and or delays on the hfs.

My initial thought is position may be an issue. But if the distances are different and you have not accounted for it with delay, the solution may be easier...adding delay to the closer sub matching the difference in actual distance from the mlp.
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post #24 of 33 Old 04-17-2019, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Both HF are in the front of the room, L sub is 8' away from me, R subs is 8.5' from me and are about 9' apart. Both VBSS are 3-4' behind the couch and 2' apart so near field. I did add 4Ms of delay to the VBSS the other night and it does sound more equal between the 4. The one graph in OP is all 4 subs working together with all bs on.

WinISD says as long as i dont add boost or anything and leave it at 200W excursion will be fine. I guess this is where you masters come into play - I leave for work in 20min so I wont have time to tinker, But like you said and Mr-HZ, Its worth the extension I want to get as flat and low as I can even if i have to give up some spl.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
You can boost the mid-bass to gain back the lost SPL as long as you are that many db below the model-modelled maximum power handling / SPL.

The question is: is it worth it though...

Most sealed boxes don't need a HPF unless you made the box too big for the excursion profile,
in fact most sealed boxes need a ULF shelf boost to "get flat" to single digits. Most find that the extra extension is worth the reduced max SPL caused by doing so.

One of the MAJOR points of having as-many cones as you can afford (or that the police/wife will tolerate) is to reduce the THD to zero even WHEN playing back a scalp-peeling SPL.
Bass for days... Make scalps great-again?



At least you even get to be at home. I haven't seen or heard a subwoofer in 4 months and counting...

The plan is to replace the vbss with two more HF as I prefer them, just have to wait for funds, I'll need another 3000DSP as im sure the 1000DSp wont do diddly. I couldnt imagine being away for so long, My wife would kill me.

On a +note i have NO WAF bs, I do what the hell I want so long as we can afford it. #Healthy-relationship
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post #26 of 33 Old 04-17-2019, 11:37 AM
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For what it's worth, I'm boosting the hell out of the low-end of a pair of sealed UM18's and 8x of the 12" JBLs. Serious +12db Low Shelf @20hz stuff. I did this before looking at it in WinISD.

In practice, it works great and gives me flat response down to 20Hz and down a couple db at 15Hz. No issues.

Then I modeled it in WinISD and for a few seconds, I was mortified. Excursion limits in this case looked like driving 95 in a 25. I should lose my license to play bass. I had to remind myself that it works just fine.

Bottom line is that it works, but, I'm certain that there is some volume level where these things will bottom out. However, I can turn the system up louder than I want to listen to it and there are no issues. I've got that "excursion limit" thing hanging over my head but as long as I can play it loud, louder than I want it even, and it doesn't fail, then I can live with it.
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post #27 of 33 Old 04-17-2019, 12:39 PM
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Its very easy to setup subs to use the maximum capability without exceeding it guys...we are happy to help if u want it. No need to stress better to know! Winisd is pretty accurate. No free lunch...you dont get massive spl and super low extension out of anything but the best of subs.
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post #28 of 33 Old 04-17-2019, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
. No free lunch...you dont get massive spl and super low extension out of anything but the best of subs.

So "besides" eqing down those peaks should i leave all filters off then? Im chasing what your saying lol.
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post #29 of 33 Old 04-17-2019, 07:18 PM
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The winisd models will tell you what you get.

Note...when you add low end boost, you hit excursion limits inputting sometimes very small wattages...50w, 100w etc. This is not what your amp is using. That is shown in the apparent power tab. For example 50w input with 10db of boost at 20hz will use 500w of power! You may confuse these possibly?

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If a sub is against a wall it adds 5 or 6db, in a corner another 6db so up to 12db.

Want to figure your spl? Put 4 of each sub into your winisd models. Put 4x the box volume and 4x the power. Now you see how 4 of each type of sub models to figure your spl potential.

You have 4 subs, but 2 different sets with different capabilities. Average the output of the 2 models to get a good estimate of your potential. Winisd doesn't account for walls and corners, you manually add that.

Winisd also cant guess your room gain, so you measure to know how much boost and cut to use and where. Thats in process now. Once complete you will know exactly how much boost to add and where...and how much overall spl you can get. The room and setup determine the boost needed to be flat...the boost needed points to your excursion limit...which tells you how much power to input and how much amp power you will use (apparent tab) and...since you then have a flat response...what is your max spl capability. 😁

In the meantime...

Whatever PEQ is used, plug into winisd. Want more spl...less boost. More extension is more boost.

Trust the model, dont forget about walls and corners, add manually.
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post #30 of 33 Old 04-17-2019, 07:29 PM
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Limiter would be set to apparent power max (fyi). This sets the limit at the point where the most power is used within the limits of excursion.

Where you define the limits of excursion depends upon the driver, but the specs (xmax) are usually good for modeling.
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