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post #1 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Question Help fix stupid:

Greetings:


I think I may be stupid-and am in need of correction.



I have Dual VBSS-And as most know they are thunderous: despite their xmax limitations they put out serious SPL.


I bought two RSS390HF- Made them 4.3FT2 and loved them, but because I wanted extension the box I built wouldn't allow much power(200w max) without applying HPF which limited my SPL. So I put a 4" X 18" PVC port in them yesterday. And they sound great I was able to bump up to 400W but I have to have a HPF killing extension.- but as soon as I turn on the VBSS the 390HF disappear into the void.



Should I stop wasting money on other drivers and just get 2 more VBSS built? I hate their size, that's why I purchased the 390HF. I've never had a issue with VBSS putting out umpf down to 10HZ with ease, adding two more im sure would be devastating.



Not interested in UM-18, to much money, A) for drivers, B) they would require a 6000D. I was considering the UM15, but not sure sale will alst till i get paid and seems like it wouldn't off much more in performance for the sizes im shooting for. (smaller than VBSS haha pref)
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post #2 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 10:57 AM
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So the subs (2 of them) have to be small, cheap, loud with low extension. The magical tall order that everyone would love to have filled.

Next best thing there is running 8X the JBL's sealed and boost the the crud out of the low end. If 8X can't fit, you might have decent results with 4X depending on room and expectations.
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post #3 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I wouldn't put it that way, Im not chasing the unobtainable. $300 Per driver is a bit to much for me. One persons cheap is anthers ouch limit. The sealed variant had great extension but was limited SPL because limited power.



I made a post trying to get assistance but in the end I was advised to just port them. Ive made multiple posts trying to get "guides' for DEQ also so maybe I can push their limits and tailor a box to that, again seems its a exclusive club. I mean VBSS has a preset settings that make them crazy, based on the driver and its limitations. So why not the 390HF? Lot of people buy them, It be cool get a round a bout go to setting based on cab etc.


I know everyone's room is different and plays a part. I guess more of a starting out point would be awesome. And I made mine 4.3FT2 thats not small, but also again a small box may be huge for some.
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post #4 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 11:35 AM
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"I bought two RSS390HF"

if space isn't an issue, the amps are adequate, NO HPF needed, extension to low 20's not counting room gain, vertical placement options with a small footprint

clean bass, low, loud, not small . Hoffman's Iron Law.

15" , good for an 18" wide THTLP- making it wider a possibility, good for up to 36".

It's easier to build 2 at a time . .

that REWchart is 2 THTLP's, a 24" and the gray 30" pic, in <100 ft^2. on BASH 300 amps . .

what could possibly go wrong . . .?
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post #5 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
but as soon as I turn on the VBSS the 390HF disappear into the void.
Could this be as simple as a polarity problem?
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #6 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
I wouldn't put it that way, Im not chasing the unobtainable. $300 Per driver is a bit to much for me. One persons cheap is anthers ouch limit. The sealed variant had great extension but was limited SPL because limited power.

I made a post trying to get assistance but in the end I was advised to just port them. Ive made multiple posts trying to get "guides' for DEQ also so maybe I can push their limits and tailor a box to that, again seems its a exclusive club. I mean VBSS has a preset settings that make them crazy, based on the driver and its limitations. So why not the 390HF? Lot of people buy them, It be cool get a round a bout go to setting based on cab etc.
Well, it doesn't make too much sense to me that you only applied 200W sealed and then 400W ported. If more power would have made sealed extension and SPL ok, how was that alignment power limited?

And regarding why no one has done a VBSS-type setup for the 390HF/HO, I'd guess the cost of driver + amp + value doesn't make as much sense for being copied. Again, for extension without losing the upper bass benefits of the VBSS, I'd go multiple JBLs with DSP. That thread does have some guidance for the boosting to get extension. Also, to my knowledge, no one has smoked one of those drivers in that thread. And if you already have an 3000DSP and umik, then you're all set. Did I mention that it's a great price point too

My personal bias though is to do as @asarose247 says and build a pair of horns Just don't get too carried away with expecting tremendous extension unless room gain is very good.
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post #7 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by notfastenough View Post
That thread
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...y-bestbuy.html
and, yes, that's nine of them in my avatar.
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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #8 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't have room for Horns im limited to 5FT or less

I had to limit them to 200W because excursion with the 4.3 sealed. It blew past it in the 30s(ish) if i added more than 200 Id need HPF killing extension. Ported your adding a HPF anyway so I just turned it up.



I'll have a look at the JBL thread-
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post #9 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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If i was able to use the 4.3 sealed with 400W without a HPF I would have been more than happy
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post #10 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notfastenough View Post
So the subs (2 of them) have to be small, cheap, loud with low extension. The magical tall order that everyone would love to have filled.
That's what it sounds like to me. As asarose247 pointed out, Hoffman's Law is still Iron...

The PA460 and RSS390HF both are rated for 500W RMS, but the PA460 will be about 10dB louder in the mid-bass for the same power.

When it comes to the lowest frequencies, displacement sets a limit. One high excursion 15" vs two mid-excursion 18" isn't going to be that different. Isn't the rule of thumb that one UM18 is roughly equivalent to three PA460s? The excursion and prices reflect that. The PA460 is considered a "value" driver, you get a lot of the price. But the UM18 is a "value" driver, too!

Same for the JBL 12" drivers (when on sale). Roughly four equal one UM18.

With these drivers, we're already at the "sweet spot". Bigger cabinets (more VBSS, horns, bandpass) will get you more dB, but every Hz lower you want to extend will always cost more.

I'd recommend selling the RSS390HF and adding another two VBSS since they're simple, you've already built two, and you can run them off your existing amp that already has the settings dialed in.

FWIW I've got "value" subs in my system, a mix of Stereo Integrity HT18s, UM18s, and VBSSs. But I run the UM18s and PA460s nearfield, so they don't have to run as hard. And with eight 18" subs, half of them nearfield (and not counting all the 18s in the main speakers), I'm still wanting to add a big sealed sub in the corner. One way or another, you have to pay to play.

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post #11 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
If i was able to use the 4.3 sealed with 400W without a HPF I would have been more than happy
Go dual-opposed in 4.3ft3 and you should be able to hit that.
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post #12 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 03:01 PM
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Something is just not adding up here. I find it hard to believe 200 watts could push a sealed 15" driver over 14mm one way in a 4 ft cab. This does not compute, there's no way the suspension is that soft or it's motor is that strong.

Did I miss something? And yet with twice the power ported no issues? What the heck???

But if you want deep extension it's easy. A ton of cone area and tons more power. Not cheap though.
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post #13 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 03:46 PM
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Modeling the 390 is backing up Remy's approach on power applied keeping excursion in check without filters. This is using the preloaded 390 T/S parameters. I'll look to double check them later. For now, gotta go see Endgame!
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post #14 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by notfastenough View Post
Modeling the 390 is backing up Remy's approach on power applied keeping excursion in check without filters.
Ditto here, with the parameters listed on PE's site. But at 300 watts excursion only reaches 16mm, which is likely well under xmech (although I don't know what xmech is on these drivers, so that may not be true).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkeye
Go dual-opposed in 4.3ft3 and you should be able to hit that.
Funkeye nailed it. Dual RSS390HFs in 4.3ft^3 with 500 watts and no filters shows excursion under 10mm. Hell, at 1000 watts it's still under xmax, just about 13mm.

Blue = single driver (300 watts), Orange = dual (500 watts)
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post #15 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Ditto here, with the parameters listed on PE's site. But at 300 watts excursion only reaches 16mm, which is likely well under xmech (although I don't know what xmech is on these drivers, so that may not be true).



Funkeye nailed it. Dual RSS390HFs in 4.3ft^3 with 500 watts and no filters shows excursion under 10mm. Hell, at 1000 watts it's still under xmax, just about 13mm.

Blue = single driver (300 watts), Orange = dual (500 watts)



Holy Jesus- I never even thought that could be possible. So I just rebuild box put them both in it and i can run them each off a channel on my 3000D at max watts? Max being what PE says at 500rms
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post #16 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
Holy Jesus- I never even thought that could be possible. So I just rebuild box put them both in it and i can run them each off a channel on my 3000D at max watts? Max being what PE says at 500rms
If you wire the 2 drivers in parallel, you could run them both off of 1 channel (the nu3000 has been measured to 1000w/chn @ 2 ohms according to https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/clas...surements.html) to give each ~500w. If you prefer to run each driver in the same box from separate channels, you should have ~600w/chn to feed them - A touch over RMS.

Or save the other channel for another dual RSS390HF build...
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post #17 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Or save the other channel for another dual RSS390HF build...

You are INSANE! And are a bad influence on me. Damn it! Now I have to rebuild- Yeah I can probably resuse one of the cabs, but if i rebuild i can make them better and use t-nuts to hold all that power down,.....


Do they have to be on either side of each-other? Or can one be front and one side? FYI I cant have a drive stick out, is out of the question- 3 kids with demon fingers

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post #18 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 06:51 PM
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You could get another two PA-460's and make a new box that is dual dual-opposed ported to whatever-Hz.

The only downside of the PA-460's is that they really need big boxes, like 17cuft per cone if tuning below 20hz.

Quote:
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One persons cheap is anthers ouch limit.
All I can say is:

My neighbor and related ex-coworkers, rob and MK old ladies and the weak-of-mind for a living... (Lets call it "the facility"). They have abused so many people. They ALL deserve every ounce of SPL I can throw at them, as OFTEN as physically possible, for the next 100 YEARS. (and if you are reading this: then PERFECT!)

Without-question: more cones and watts are in order!

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post #19 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
Do they have to be on either side of each-other? Or can one be front and one side? FYI I cant have a drive stick out, is out of the question- 3 kids with demon fingers
You want them opposing each other to cancel out vibrations.

Looks like the RSS390HF are pole vented, I'm not sure what the rule of thumb is there for distance between each driver. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than I can speak to that.
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post #20 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 07:20 PM
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You are INSANE! And are a bad influence on me. Damn it! Now I have to rebuild
And credit where credit is due, it was Funkeye that made that call.
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post #21 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
You could get another two PA-460's and make a new box that is dual dual-opposed ported to whatever-Hz.

The only downside of the PA-460's is that they really need big boxes, like 17cuft per cone if tuning below 20hz.

That be nice but thats massively to big, I believe if i attempted that then for the first time in my marriage id have a WAF. I pitched her the idea of dual apposed and she likes it, hoping to be able have one front firing and one side.
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post #22 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
That be nice but thats massively to big, I believe if i attempted that then for the first time in my marriage id have a WAF. I pitched her the idea of dual apposed and she likes it, hoping to be able have one front firing and one side.
If the two drivers are sharing a corner, they're not dual opposed. I'm sure having them in a different configuration will work, but just not optimal for nullifying vibrations. Might consider using some of the legit insulating feet if you notice issues.

Why not a speaker grill on the front side for the ?

And you know having two of these in the room is the way to go. It is inevitable
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post #23 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah ill most likely go two of these once im able to buy two more drivers. Ill just mount them the normal way and have each firing out a side so i dont block them.

Im not worried about exposed cones i just meant i have sen dual apposed that are mounted on each other- THe kids would turn them into garbage bins in a day - already planing on buying a sheet of MDF to create this monster. Also siming them- funny the F3 drops but the extension and overall spl jumps..Looks like Frankenstein woofers
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post #24 of 33 Old 04-30-2019, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
i just meant i have sen dual apposed that are mounted on each other

You're thinking of isobaric. The subs are mounted to each other face to face with the outside one having the polarity reversed to match the cone movement of the regular mounted one.

That's not dual opposed. Dual opposed are mounted like normal subs (magnets in) on opposing sides of a box to minimize vibrations.
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post #25 of 33 Old 05-01-2019, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
And credit where credit is due, it was Funkeye that made that call.
I just threw the idea out there, smcmillan2 did the analysis and should perform great. Definitely go for a pair of those!

Remy, not sure what cabinet dimensions you are planning on. For an internal volume of 4.3ft3, I'd figure about roughly 5.0ft3 before driver and bracing displacement (drivers are about 0.2ft3 each in WinISD, and of course it depends on how wild you get with bracing). This can work out to be a cube that's 20.5" x 20.5" x 20.5" (internal dimensions). The drivers are about 7" deep so that gives about 8" spacing between magnets if you use 3/4" wood and surface mount the drivers, which is ample.
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post #26 of 33 Old 05-01-2019, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Credit to all of you guys- this looks like its going to a monster. Damn shame they have only 500 RMS lol The extension im modeling unless im a dumb dumb blows the ported of equal size out of the water.

And great suggestion on increasing the cab size, I completely forgot about that. I was using http://www.bcae1.com/spboxnew2.htm and if I increase it to 21x21x21 internal it'll be net 5.3, minus woofers and bracing. Ill do double baffle for each woofer and hopefully get the cut out right so i have 1" lip so i can use tnuts. last cutout i did was 14.X and not enough space lol
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post #27 of 33 Old 05-01-2019, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Never mind, It's better to stick with 4.3 "after" subs and bracing. Excursion is way better.
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post #28 of 33 Old 05-01-2019, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Could this be as simple as a polarity problem?
Michael
Was this ever considered? Not that building more/bigger isn't great but this was my first thought. Where are the 390s in relation to the VBSS in your setup. If there are not right next to each other it could just be a cancellation problem. How do the 390s sound without the VBSS on? Are they still weak or do they have decent output?
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post #29 of 33 Old 05-01-2019, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
Holy Jesus- I never even thought that could be possible. So I just rebuild box put them both in it and i can run them each off a channel on my 3000D at max watts? Max being what PE says at 500rms

I'm currently pushing ~900W into my RSS390HF in the Cinema F20 with one channel of my QSC PLX3002, and it hasn't let the magic smoke out yet. It's a pretty robust driver.
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post #30 of 33 Old 05-01-2019, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
Was this ever considered? Not that building more/bigger isn't great but this was my first thought. Where are the 390s in relation to the VBSS in your setup. If there are not right next to each other it could just be a cancellation problem. How do the 390s sound without the VBSS on? Are they still weak or do they have decent output?

Polarity is good- The VBSS just drown out the 390 which sounds strange. I got the 390 sounding good with out the VBSS. But I guess the VBSS are way louder even after using REW to level set them, ad delay to VBSS because they are 4' closer. Its this way sealed or ported- I know it sounds crazy.


I guess one the main issues for me is I love sealed and the 390 in their cab with limited power cant compete with the vbss spl. With this new monstrosity i can dump power into them. As @drewp29 as mentioned lol-
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