August 10th diy se mi gtg - Page 17 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #481 of 492 Old 08-14-2019, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post
There is not much feedback on these for 2 channel but that’s how I was using them.

I think they sound great for two channel music. You would have to spend $1000+ to match/beat them IMO.

Their sound is open and airy. Excellent bass detail and extension for its size. Midrange is neutral and the tweeter has very good air/ splash and detail. Not laid back but not fatiguing at all. Driver cohesion is also excellent. Off axis sound character changes very little.

Over all, great detail but not so analytical that you have to feed it specific material to sound good like an ls50. If you are looking for super analytical ls50 type sound, you may not be crazy about these. These are more in line with speakers from Philharmonic or Ascend.



Hope that helps.
Brian.....I know you once wrote for " Stereophile"


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post #482 of 492 Old 08-14-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by hd0823 View Post
https://www.qsc.com/cinema/products/...ofers/sb-2180/

There qsc Cinema subs wont dig real deep but these are my plan for my basement setup next year when I finish the basement next g2g I have I should have everything done and up and running

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post #483 of 492 Old 08-14-2019, 02:15 PM
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I was just looking at those myself. I put it in my cart and seem to be able to move forward to order. Not decided yet tho. Ultimax 18 looks very nice but is more $


I just got 2 more of these buyout drivers. I couldn’t stand not knowing if they are gone or not. I guess they aren’t. I ordered 2 of the A stock and the order went through.
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post #484 of 492 Old 08-14-2019, 03:08 PM
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Anyway I’m happy with everything for now. I think my mains sounded great.

It sounds fantastic! I would be so pleased with you're system were it mine. I wish I would have ask you a few questions at the time but you were just a bit busy with entertaining everyone. Next time perhaps. The time seemed to go so fast.


Please listen to one song down there for me and tell me what you think....Quarterflash -Williams Avenue.
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post #485 of 492 Old 08-14-2019, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post
There is not much feedback on these for 2 channel but that’s how I was using them.

I think they sound great for two channel music. You would have to spend $1000+ to match/beat them IMO.

Their sound is open and airy. Excellent bass detail and extension for its size. Midrange is neutral and the tweeter has very good air/ splash and detail. Not laid back but not fatiguing at all. Driver cohesion is also excellent. Off axis sound character changes very little.

Over all, great detail but not so analytical that you have to feed it specific material to sound good like an ls50. If you are looking for super analytical ls50 type sound, you may not be crazy about these. These are more in line with speakers from Philharmonic or Ascend.

What I told people at the GTG was that their character is very much like the Buchardt s300’s I am listening to right now and those are almost $1200 a pair.


Maybe someone else that heard them can also chime in.

Hope that helps.
I thought I had replied to this but I guess I did not.

Anyhow, yes...that helps. Going by the specs I figured that the highs would be pretty nice, but I wasn't sure about the bass output and if it'd be enough without a sub. I don't really do techno or anything, but I do like a pronounced bass guitar or Cello.

I like that the Helix's are 8 ohms (which makes them pretty flexible).

And I much prefer "fun" speakers to ones that reveal every flaw where only the best of the best songs sound good. I keep going back to my original Elac Debut's for that very reason.
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post #486 of 492 Old 08-15-2019, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by _tk View Post
I thought I had replied to this but I guess I did not.

Anyhow, yes...that helps. Going by the specs I figured that the highs would be pretty nice, but I wasn't sure about the bass output and if it'd be enough without a sub. I don't really do techno or anything, but I do like a pronounced bass guitar or Cello.

I like that the Helix's are 8 ohms (which makes them pretty flexible).

And I much prefer "fun" speakers to ones that reveal every flaw where only the best of the best songs sound good. I keep going back to my original Elac Debut's for that very reason.
I think you will enjoy the Helix. Im seriously considering building the MTM's for my LCR

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post #487 of 492 Old 08-15-2019, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
steve can be a fun guy to listen to and some of his stories are, well, the kind of stories one might imagine working in a high end store in nyc back in the day.

he doesn't seem to be familiar with the scientific work that has emerged over the past 10-15 years or so that has found very strong correlation between certain aspects of sound reproduction and subjective listening preferences. it may be because he isn't aware of the research, doesn't have the background to interpret the statistical measures, that he has beliefs that at this point he isn't willing to change, or it could be something else.

in any case, when subjective listening preferences are on the order 90% predictable based on purely objective measurements, there is very little room for "all the other stuff" that steve is talking about. once "errors in the variables" are further considered, which arise from the fact that people may not reliably pick their "favorite" each time in a blind test, the subjective part that remains is likely down in the low single digits. also, there is an adaptation aspect. over time, "your" speakers will begin to sound more right as your brain makes its own eq adjustments. when presented with sound that is more accurate, the brain may initially find it sounds a bit "off", but over time that aspect will adjust as well. this further limits the statistical power of the tests, which also reduces the remaining portion available for subjective preferences not explained by objective measurements.

https://www.listeninc.com/wp/media/P...Sean_Olive.pdf

that's not to say that speakers have different presentations of sound and different types interact with rooms differently, they do. but just based on the sound characteristics alone, at this point, it is pretty easy to predict what most folks will think sounds good.

as a side bar, olive gets the award for the funniest conclusion in a scientific paper:



males prefer more bass than females. going out on a limb here, i don't think more research is needed on that one. :-)

I just finished reading through this. I have too many questions for this thread, but overall, the findings are interesting.

I actually think Steve IS aware of this type of testing, I just think he's more into a "If you like it, go for it" philosophy. The science behind the sound is obviously very important but there are many other factors, both objective and subjective, involved in ones enjoyment of the hobby.

Measurements have their place but its very common for people to fashion measurements into a stick and beat the harmless fun out of things. This can have the negative effect of pushing people away from the science in fear that someone is going to beat them over the head with what they SHOULD be preferring.
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post #488 of 492 Old 08-16-2019, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post
Measurements have their place but its very common for people to fashion measurements into a stick and beat the harmless fun out of things. This can have the negative effect of pushing people away from the science in fear that someone is going to beat them over the head with what they SHOULD be preferring.
i agree--if folks are happy, they are happy. i was just suggesting that what folks will generally prefer isn't as much of a mystery as it may have been in days past, so the subjective/objective divide isn't really as wide as it used to be. the statistics suggest it is actually kind of narrow distinctions at this point. that's not to suggest that everything that can be heard can be measured, nor is it to say that everyone will prefer the same thing. there is still work to be done.
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post #489 of 492 Old 08-16-2019, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
i agree--if folks are happy, they are happy. i was just suggesting that what folks will generally prefer isn't as much of a mystery as it may have been in days past, so the subjective/objective divide isn't really as wide as it used to be. the statistics suggest it is actually kind of narrow distinctions at this point. that's not to suggest that everything that can be heard can be measured, nor is it to say that everyone will prefer the same thing. there is still work to be done.


Yes, great information. Thank you.

Hopefully this research is used to help design better and less expensive loudspeakers. I would be surprised if some designers are not already aware of this. Maybe from similar focus groups etc. but just keep that info to themselves to give them and advantage.

I’m sure this is just the beginning of this research. It would also be cool to see it used to create different DSP filters.

I wonder, is there is a list of popular speakers that measure similar to the curve discovered in this research?

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post #490 of 492 Old 08-16-2019, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post
I wonder, is there is a list of popular speakers that measure similar to the curve discovered in this research?
off axis response similar to on-axis. no abrupt changes in off axis radiation. smooth response overall. downward tilt from bass to treble. minimum resonances.

i'm not aware of a list, but an increasing number of speakers are falling into this regime. many of the dsp's are now eq'ing systems to the overall downward tilt too.
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post #491 of 492 Old 08-16-2019, 07:43 PM
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off axis response similar to on-axis. no abrupt changes in off axis radiation. smooth response overall. downward tilt from bass to treble. minimum resonances.



i'm not aware of a list, but an increasing number of speakers are falling into this regime. many of the dsp's are now eq'ing systems to the overall downward tilt too.


Not to get too off track on this thread but, don’t other things come into play with a speakers sound than just it’s on/off axis frequency response? Seems like there are a lot of variables not mentioned.

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post #492 of 492 Old 08-17-2019, 09:06 AM
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Not to get too off track on this thread but, don’t other things come into play with a speakers sound than just it’s on/off axis frequency response? Seems like there are a lot of variables not mentioned.
i'm sure there are and i'm not aware of a comprehensive list. some quantifiables that come to mind would be time alignment and phase response of the drivers, low distortion drivers, lack of power compression for the listening level target, etc., but my guess is that that those are all assumed to be starting points. one that could probably use some more work is audible thresholds for intermodulation distortion. i don't think that one has been sorted out yet, other than to simply say lower tends to be better. one of the biggest subjective aspects could be the radiation pattern. that can't be changed with eq and determines how much the room figures into the sound and/or how the sound is presented. a more focused sound pattern and/or dead room may enhance intelligibility whereas a more omnidirectional sound pattern may be more enveloping for music, at least for two channel. whether point source or cbt line arrays is preferred probably falls into the subjective camp at this point because i'm not sure that all aspects of the differences can be quantified. so, i suppose the objective/subjective comment pertains more to speakers within a design form factor rather than from one form factor to another. many folks purchase speakers more for the way they look though, so if the objective is sales, at least as much effort should be placed on making the speakers look good as making them sound good, and that is probably way more subjective than the sound itself!
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