DIY SG surround speakers? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 14 Old 05-09-2019, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Specs for DIY SG speakers as surrounds?

All,

This is a topic I have glossed over quite a bit, but I am not sure this is the right question. How to pick wides, surrounds, and rears. How do we know the dispersion characteristics of the DIY SG speakers?

Volt 10
HTM 10
HT 10
Others?

What is the min, max, and optimal distance for each of these?

What degree of "optimal" horizontal coverage for each?

What degree of "optimal" vertical coverage for each?

Is there anything that would keep any of these from having the directivity needed for wides, vs surrounds vs rears?

Is there a best match for LCR to each of these lines?

I guess I am looking for speaker characteristics so I can realize for myself, not a general "what is the best speaker" which might not end up the best in our space. I intend to use mostly diffusion in our space, but I would also like to use the soffits and riser for bass trapping.

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post #2 of 14 Old 05-09-2019, 11:36 AM
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the perfect storm . . .

Generic Opening Drill
as in
Oh GOD!-
here we go again

What are the best
DIY
manufactured
resurrected
LR, CC, surround / rear/ tops /heights /wides
speakers
for
Music
Movies
and/or A% of one and B% of the other
for ATMOS, DTX:S, Stereo, Neo:X , DSU
and sub woofers
sealed, ported , TH, FLH, bandpass, dual opposed ,
up /down/ front /back / side firing
in my
pre-existing dedicated room
multipurpose / living room
garage
X ft^2 bedroom / mancave
custom built theater expanse
where I must compromise due to
BUDGET
WAF / neighbors / Kids / pre-exisitng decor
vaulted ceilings / L shape
less optimally placed doors /windows/ sliders / furniture /fireplaces
attached other living spaces / huge volume
inadequately wired
concrete floor / raised floor
no attic /ceiling access.

Care to supply more details?
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post #3 of 14 Old 05-09-2019, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I guess I asked the question that way for an understanding of available speakers separate from planning our room. More like a way to classify a speakers usefulness without completely overpowering a space, or picking something with the wrong characteristics for a specific room.

For instance:
- Is one speaker more directional? ok, at what range?
- Is another focused on as wide as possible for surrounds? ok, how wide is it effective and is there a minimum or maximum distance?
- Is there something else for as wide, and tall as possible?

The first image on the SEOS 12" waveguide looks like it has 3of loss for 90 degrees. How does that work out as a whole speaker?
https://www.diysoundgroup.com/speake...waveguide.html

but...

If the room specs really matters more, our space is 18'9" wide, 23'9" deep, and 8'6" H (although a part of the front of the room will be shorter at 7'6" under a beam).
- 6" of wall space has been allotted for diffusion and absorption.
- I am not adverse to sizing columns to fit tuned membrane traps or similar.
- I intend to start with a microphone, laptop, and a lot of diffusion inside the room shell. I will take measurements as large components are added (screen wall, riser, soffits, and 3" of ceiling diffusion behind a cloth ceiling)
- We have RSL C34e for atmos
- I would like to pick up at least two speakers to start screwing with as the space takes shape.

I know I am a novice, and the above is probably the extent of where I have thought about the technical nature of the speakers themselves, so please be kind with me

Thanks,
Robb

Our Old Space
New House
PSN: brotj7

Last edited by rfbrang; 05-09-2019 at 01:22 PM. Reason: extra spaces
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post #4 of 14 Old 05-09-2019, 01:27 PM
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well at not much under 3.8Kft^3,

to think going as big as budget allows - this is DIY gold for the ROI

maybe info about the front end since that's the primary focus

DIY FAN Denon X4400 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS Sammy 82" 4K/HDR
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
SUBMAXIMUS V2, ,Submaximus V3,LOWARHORNCustom Dual Driver VBSS,2 x 6000DSP
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post #5 of 14 Old 05-09-2019, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been all over the map with the LCR since we bought the house. The wants have progressed from their 893 -> 1099 -> 1299 -> Titans, and now I see the HTM12 and know others have gone with PA type speakers so maybe that is the right setup without needing a crazy amount of absorption for proper clarity/decay rates. (I only have a general understanding of what that is by the way)


No clue which ones are right for our LCR, but we are designing for 24" behind the screen.


But after spending as much as we have on the house with this space in mind all the way, I don't want the surround sound to be lacking. So an understanding of how to hit the mark with the whole bed layer concern me.

Our Old Space
New House
PSN: brotj7
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post #6 of 14 Old 05-09-2019, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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For history, I started with Polks in 2009ish, then we went to their RTi A9 behind the screen in our old house/theatre thinking the consistent speakers would be best. On our Onkyo, the sound was great and loud to our ears. We didn't realize we had fatigue from too bright and loud at the time.


After the Onkyo HDMI board burned out, we went to a Denon. It was much a more laid back sound but even after we got used to a less colored sound, it was lacking something. It took a while but I realized that speaker was not meant to be a center.


In our new house, we have the A9 as our LR, and a CSi A6 as the center above our TV. But the whole main floor is wide open and the sound is lacking. The oversized Polks have already passed the WAF.... eh....ahhhh... discussions... so they will stay upstairs.


But in the theatre I don't want any seat to be lacking if I can pick parts that suit the space.

Our Old Space
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PSN: brotj7
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post #7 of 14 Old 05-09-2019, 02:10 PM
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perhaps

if you have a budget number

shoot @mtg90 a PM

add info wrt how wide the front stage is and proposed listening distance,
that geometry is most fundamental

and 1 row or more as that gets into the SS aspect of it , HT8's or 10's . . .or?
at 18+ wide, some gusto needed

my own is only 14.5 wide but given my ( pleasant) experience with the 15" seos horns, in the LCR
given the opportunity, I went for it, before they went away

now just go for the HTM12's, if available
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DIY FAN Denon X4400 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS Sammy 82" 4K/HDR
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
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post #8 of 14 Old 05-09-2019, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfbrang View Post
I guess I am looking for speaker characteristics so I can realize for myself, not a general "what is the best speaker" which might not end up the best in our space.
While I can't yet give you results as I'm in the process of doing the same thing you are, I can explain my thinking on the subject so far.


I was originally planning Volt-10's all over the place as they seem to be the "Swiss Army Knife" of surround speakers and would probably do a fine job no matter where you put them. I've changed my mind (for the moment at least) to using HTM's (HTM-8 in my case, as they'll fit between 16" on center studs) for the surround layer. Here was my reasoning:


Better horizontal dispersion. Horizontal dispersion is pretty important for surround speakers, especially if you have multiple rows. If you haven't read Floyd Toole's series on home theater design I'd highly recommend it. I think it's Part II where he specifically talks about this (they're free, I don't have the link handy but could probably find it if you need). In my case, my room will be wide so they'll be a good distance away and I'll be able to mount them close to ear height so large vertical dispersion isn't really needed. I figure limiting floor/ceiling reflections and getting more direct sound to the ears should sound better.


For a more narrow room or if they needed to be installed significantly above ear height, the vertical dispersion probably becomes more important and the Volt-10 might be the better choice.


I am sticking with Volt-10's for ceiling and elevation speakers though (I'll have both). For those, you really need good dispersion in all directions since they're firing down at the audience requiring coverage in multiple directions and that's what they're really good at. With angled flatpacks available, it's hard to think of a better choice for anywhere near the price.


Hopefully that'll give you some things to think about.
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post #9 of 14 Old 05-09-2019, 06:17 PM
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I was pondering this very question tonight on the way home from work, With regard to frt height speakers in my living room.

In my set up I sit 16ft back from the front wall. To put frt height speakers at ~40deg up from the MLP they will be about 15ft up the wall and more than 21ft away in a direct line.

Assuming I aimed them down towards the couch mlp. (I don’t have to worry about multiple rows of seats) at that distance, is there any conceivable advantage to the conical dispersion of a coax over the narrower vertical spread of a waveguide?

Thanks.
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post #10 of 14 Old 05-09-2019, 09:34 PM
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At that distance you will get more then enough vertical coverage with the waveguide.

Another thing not to overlook is that there is a decent sound quality jump going from the Volts to either the HT or HTMs.
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post #11 of 14 Old 05-10-2019, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
At that distance you will get more then enough vertical coverage with the waveguide.

Another thing not to overlook is that there is a decent sound quality jump going from the Volts to either the HT or HTMs.
Now why did you go and say that? I've got my Volts arriving tomorrow. Now they won't be good enough.
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post #12 of 14 Old 05-10-2019, 04:58 PM
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Mtg90; Yeah I figured as much. I didn’t get a chance to listen to the volt 6 at the recent GTG. Kpilk—- lol you are spot on.
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post #13 of 14 Old 05-10-2019, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfbrang View Post
What is the min, max, and optimal distance for each of these?

What degree of "optimal" horizontal coverage for each?

What degree of "optimal" vertical coverage for each?

Is there anything that would keep any of these from having the directivity needed for wides, vs surrounds vs rears?
Dolby Atmos recommends placing the wides, sides and surrounds basically at ceiling height and tilted down towards the opposing seating area, this increases the "apparent distance" between the listeners ear and the horn.
Otherwise they will eat the speaker and the spatial ambiance can't development and engulf the listeners, and those seats will be FAR too loud during battle scenes.

The "minimum"-"optimal" distance is like 5ft away, on all sides, from the extreme edges. This is a tall order and most rooms can't accommodate that, even in a dedicated space.

My theater is 3000cuft and although mine are full SEOS floorstanders for all beds I was still only able to have them 3ft from the extreme edges by pulling them forward and angling them in towards the seating area. My rears are actually a few feet to low as well. Additionally, because I value music more than movies, I have no AT screen and my center sits on the floor with the SEOS being about 20inches off the ground, tilted up slightly.
That said, nobody has ever complained about the sound quality or being unable to hear content.
In fact... most people tell me it is the best thing they have ever heard and ever will hear; and to turn it down because they can't even hear themselves think or breath, and fear they will lose all their hearing within the next 5 minutes. And they are all correct. hehe!
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post #14 of 14 Old 05-10-2019, 09:13 PM
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I think you are worrying too much, nobody will have a problem hearing the sound. Even if it is a marble palace, or a marble broom closet.

Ears are fairly flexible in that regard, as long as the sound is loud-enough,
...and it will be!

The only real downside would be burning the ears off the people whom sit hyper-close to the speakers vs the golden seat.

The free and simplest approach is to just simply regard that as a them-problem, and not a you-problem. hehe!

I mean they weren't the ones who spent all the money, so all these commoners and paupers can simply: walk it off
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