Eminence with a new high performance 21"? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 307 Old 08-31-2019, 09:43 PM
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The eminence CEA burst is .9 dB less at the same distortion. Not bad at all considering the lms5400 was the standard.

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post #62 of 307 Old 09-01-2019, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
The eminence CEA burst is .9 dB less at the same distortion. Not bad at all considering the lms5400 was the standard.
Ricci's graphs that show 80% distortion for the Eminence at 20hz 120db and 13% distortion at 20hz 120db for the TC. Is burst negating those graphs' relevance in real world use?

No the Eminence is not bad at all, but the TC has better linearity. Using the Eminence in a ported alignment will reduce its excursion and clean up the low end where the driver loses power and gets dirty. I'm getting one for sub duty on one of my systems. Above 20hz on music I expect it to be state of the art.
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post #63 of 307 Old 09-01-2019, 05:44 AM
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Ignoring distortion? It's at 100% distortion just under 20hz at 120db and you think that's usable burst output? If you're using the Eminence in a ported enclosure on music I'd say you are right. If you're looking at 10-15hz infrasonics on movies with 1/6th the distortion, the TC is a lot more than barely better. It's a different application. I'm planning on using the Eminence myself for a music system. On my home theater system, it's a step down.
The Eminence is within 1-2 dB of the LMS5400 for CEA2010 burst output. That's a negligible difference to me, especially since the 21 has 3-4 times the output above 40 Hz.

Once in room where distortion is greatly reduced, I'd say its entirely possible that the 21 matches the LMS in low frequency output(burst).

Here is the difference in output:
10Hz: 0.9 dB
12.5Hz: 0.2 dB
16Hz: 2.1 dB
20Hz: 1.8 dB
25Hz: 0.7 dB
31Hz no difference
40Hz up the 21 builds up to more than 3x the output.

The 21 bursts higher ignoring distortion so in room, burst would likely be even closer.




Also, I see what you are looking at.....with a sine wave sweep, the LMS has much lower distortion at 20Hz compared to the 21 at similar levels where both drivers are running around 108 dB. So you are 100% correct in this and I understand your point. Not sure on real world content how much of an advantage that is(considering Ricci's long term output is a 23 second long sine wave sweep), but I'd personally still take the 21 for its much better sensitivity and mid bass, especially in a system that doesn't have 12 or 15" mains.

If I were to use this driver, I would have to use it sealed as I don't have room for a large ported cab, but I do agree a driver like this would be even better in a ported cab.
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post #64 of 307 Old 09-01-2019, 06:16 AM
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With the recent sale on HST18-MKIII whats a better buy?

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post #65 of 307 Old 09-01-2019, 12:38 PM
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With the recent sale on HST18-MKIII whats a better buy?
The HST has a great strong motor but a heavy cone making it favor HT applications. I think the pro-driver options are better higher in frequency where people have complaints about midbass. The better power to weight ratios would have greater impact. Some would argue better detail because of improved higher bass frequency response. For music I would go with the 21.
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post #66 of 307 Old 09-03-2019, 01:29 PM
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So for ported, what's going to be a good enclosure size and tuning on these monsters? I have a test box, but not sure it's the right size.

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post #67 of 307 Old 09-03-2019, 01:56 PM
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So for ported, what's going to be a good enclosure size and tuning on these monsters? I have a test box, but not sure it's the right size.
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These can displace a lot of air, so need large ports
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post #68 of 307 Old 09-03-2019, 01:58 PM
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Are you thinking 11cuft, 13cuft, or maybe 15cuft?

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post #69 of 307 Old 09-03-2019, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Are you thinking 11cuft, 13cuft, or maybe 15cuft?
I ran the sim in 11 cuft 18Hz tune with a 435cm2 port area. With the high pass filter on air velocity was sitting at 30m/s with 91volts. The box will have to be designed around the port area, I would guess in the ballpark of 700cm2 for port area for passable levels. I would also guess higher displacement, 15 cuft for 20Hz tune or if you want to go lower.

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post #70 of 307 Old 09-03-2019, 03:25 PM
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They are now unobtanium for the time being. Sold out like Popeyes chicken sandwich, conspiracy I tell ya.

Talked to Al, they ship tommorow Bad news is whoever ordered the single is SOL. @kbclamper got the last 2 I believe, if he gets a tracking tomorrow.

He has Eminence's program so i'm curious what he comes up with box wise. They show 5.5-17 cuft.

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post #71 of 307 Old 09-03-2019, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
They are now unobtanium for the time being. Sold out like Popeyes chicken sandwich, conspiracy I tell ya.

Talked to Al, they ship tommorow Bad news is whoever ordered the single is SOL. @kbclamper got the last 2 I believe, if he gets a tracking tomorrow.

He has Eminence's program so i'm curious what he comes up with box wise. They show 5.5-17 cuft.
I better have gotten 2, I sold my lms ultras on sunday
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post #72 of 307 Old 09-03-2019, 05:23 PM
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He said somebody ordered 2, then got a order for 1. I didn't ask for a name but I'd say you're good. Eminence said the other 6 were spoken for. He said tracking usually goes out 4:30 central time.

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post #73 of 307 Old 09-03-2019, 05:56 PM
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When’s the next shipment? Trying to talk myself out of switching out the Lavoce drivers for two of these in the BMDs. but am currently losing as the urge is strong with these


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post #74 of 307 Old 09-03-2019, 06:21 PM
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Seems to be a big problem with basket production. When asked about it they didn't elaborate. If it was going to be less than a month you'd assume they would say that. I wouldn't halt plans unless you aren't in a hurry


For as many as your building I dont think your missing anything.
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Seems to be a big problem with basket production. When asked about it they didn't elaborate. If it was going to be less than a month you'd assume they would say that. I wouldn't halt plans unless you aren't in a hurry





For as many as your building I dont think your missing anything.


I’ve actually got them built already. Currently running two of those and a rythmik fv25hp.

My room sucks and I’m maxed out as far as subs the wife will allow. I just figured swapping drivers should be able to increase the output around 6db which is about the same as adding another sub.

Maybe I’m thinking about it wrong or am crazy either one lol


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post #76 of 307 Old 09-04-2019, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Would guys really be using this sub in a sealed box?
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
I think people see Ricci testing these all the PA 21's in sealed boxes and assume that's automatically a good alignment for them.

This is a pro style sub that has enough displacement to do well sealed. Nothing wrong with using it like that at all. Ported or a couple of Skram's would be more appropriate though. Drivers that do well in high order cabs and also have this much displacement capability are rare.
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post #77 of 307 Old 09-04-2019, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by lknhomeaudio View Post
That's all good and well, but all speakers weren't designed for a 6ft box. Or whatever it is that he tests all the speakers in.

Nothing wrong with modeling speakers for your own application.
The sealed cab is used universally to test all drivers to keep the comparison as simple as possible and eliminate as much variation as possible. With those types of tests what is really being looked at is the driver behavior rather than a designed cab/driver system behavior. If I could easily test the drivers IB or owned a Klippel system, I'd do it that way. You are correct of course that some drivers are more suited to certain alignments than others. A lot of people question why I test drivers like the 18Sound 21LW1400 in a sealed cab when it is clearly not meant for that application...Why wouldn't I put it in a 35Hz tuned BR like it would be used for PA work? The answer is that type of test data doesn't help determine the drivers performance relative to others.

It's a lot easier to determine a drivers strengths, weaknesses and limitations in a simple sealed cab. It clearly may not be the best way to utilize the driver though. Changing the cab alignment won't radically change the way 2 drivers compare to each other though and that is the main take away. The differences in excursion, distortion and power handling capability between different drivers that show up in the sealed testing are still in effect regardless of the cab alignment.

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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
He was simulating for the same size box that Ricci tested the drivers in...and the sims were way off. So in this case, there was something wrong with modeling...namely that he was getting a false picture of their capabilities. If someone is interested in the Eminence driver, its probably good to know that it is 5-6 dB ahead, and not almost the same as modeling showed.
Sims are a powerful tool IF they are a somewhat accurate representation of the driver behavior and cabinet being built.
Big subwoofers need to account for semi inductance or you probably aren't even in the ballpark.
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post #78 of 307 Old 09-04-2019, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
To date, I haven't seen any single driver match the low distortion of the LMS ultra.
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Nothing tested has the same low distortion as the 5400(ULF), however, in a room that ULF and room gain makes very low distrotion anyways.
There's no doubt that the 5400 is a very low distortion sub, but there are others that are also very low distortion but also carry significant air displacement capabilities. I'd put the 21Ipal, XXX split coil, RF-19 and this new Eminence on the short list.


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If you look at CEA-2010 max burst(i.e., with low distortion), the LMS5400 is only 1-2 db ahead of the Eminence 21 down in the lowest frequencies below 30 Hz. From there up, the 21 runs circles around the LMS in distortion and output.

Ignoring distortion altogether, the Eminence 21 actually has more burst output even below 20 Hz.
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Ignoring distortion? It's at 100% distortion just under 20hz at 120db and you think that's usable burst output? If you're using the Eminence in a ported enclosure on music I'd say you are right. If you're looking at 10-15hz infrasonics on movies with 1/6th the distortion, the TC is a lot more than barely better. It's a different application. I'm planning on using the Eminence myself for a music system. On my home theater system, it's a step down.
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Ricci's graphs that show 80% distortion for the Eminence at 20hz 120db and 13% distortion at 20hz 120db for the TC. Is burst negating those graphs' relevance in real world use?
One thing that is probably not being considered in the comparison is that the 5400 testing was stopped due to fear of damaging the driver. If it would've been pushed any further it probably would've grenaded. It was tapped out and would've been destroyed. The Eminence 21 and most other drivers are driven way past their linear envelope into heavy distortion. There is a safety margin built in. The Eminence 21 is extremely durable mechanically and will be difficult to damage due to over excursion. Normally I would've pushed on and probably blown the 5400 but I already knew they could be hard bottomed and broken and it was one of my personal units. Also keep in mind that the SPL has to be considered. The output levels being produced during the distortion testing is rarely exactly the same.

Again the 5400 is clearly a very low distortion and high displacement unit up until its limits but it's a little more complicated than just comparing the THD graph in most cases. Some drivers were driven to produce more output than the 5400 in the same cab (With higher distortion)

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The Eminence is within 1-2 dB of the LMS5400 for CEA2010 burst output. That's a negligible difference to me, especially since the 21 has 3-4 times the output above 40 Hz.

Once in room where distortion is greatly reduced, I'd say its entirely possible that the 21 matches the LMS in low frequency output(burst).

Here is the difference in output:
10Hz: 0.9 dB
12.5Hz: 0.2 dB
16Hz: 2.1 dB
20Hz: 1.8 dB
25Hz: 0.7 dB
31Hz no difference
40Hz up the 21 builds up to more than 3x the output.

The 21 bursts higher ignoring distortion so in room, burst would likely be even closer.

Also, I see what you are looking at.....with a sine wave sweep, the LMS has much lower distortion at 20Hz compared to the 21 at similar levels where both drivers are running around 108 dB. So you are 100% correct in this and I understand your point. Not sure on real world content how much of an advantage that is(considering Ricci's long term output is a 23 second long sine wave sweep)
The room gain profile has been mentioned a few times. It will help lower THD in the deep bass in most cases. It would probably narrow the gap on the CEA-2010 distortion limited testing. It's a valid point of consideration.

I would like to note that the 5400 testing was from WAY back. At that time REW didn't even have distortion testing yet. Its distortion testing was done using ARTA which only captures the 2nd, 3rd and 4th HD with a different signal duration and applies light smoothing to the data, etc... REW results from later testing (>2013 I think) captures up to the 9th or 10th HD. I'd expect that the 5400 THD would be only very slightly higher with REW testing instead but it's difficult to say for sure how much. Anyway with that being the case I think the CEA-2010 distortion limited bursts are probably the better / easier comparison in this situation. At-least the software was the same.

At the end of the day it seems clear that the 5400 has a bit more clean displacement than the Eminence 21. About 2dB is a good estimate. However the Eminence 21 ultimately is capable of moving just as much air in the deep bass but with greatly increased distortion. Not surprising since the 5400 claimed 38mm xmax with basically zero xmech and the 21 is only 21mm claimed xmax but has xmech beyond the point the coil physically leaves the gap at 33.5mm. This is easy to see in effect in the THD results. The Eminence does great during the 115dB sweep. THD is very low. The 120dB sweep causes it to jump precipitously indicating that it was no longer operating within xmax. If there were a 117 or 118dB sweep in between it's probable that the distortion would've been acceptable at that level but the 120dB sweep was pushing it past where it was clean.

The Eminence 21 is more durable, lighter and has a big >50Hz advantage though, but is also a bigger diameter. Both are stellar subs but they are quite different in execution. I don't think I'd rush out to replace either one for the other unless the trade offs involved made a lot of sense. The 5400 is long ago discontinued anyway.
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Last edited by Ricci; 09-04-2019 at 02:48 PM.
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post #79 of 307 Old 09-04-2019, 03:42 PM
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I just got my shipping notification for my pair. I need to figure out a box now
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post #80 of 307 Old 09-04-2019, 04:35 PM
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This is a pro style sub that has enough displacement to do well sealed. Nothing wrong with using it like that at all. Ported or a couple of Skram's would be more appropriate though. Drivers that do well in high order cabs and also have this much displacement capability are rare.
What's your recommendation for a sealed enclosure? I'd probably use mine in a large ported box, but just curious about the cabinet size differences.

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post #81 of 307 Old 09-04-2019, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
The sealed cab is used universally to test all drivers to keep the comparison as simple as possible and eliminate as much variation as possible. With those types of tests what is really being looked at is the driver behavior rather than a designed cab/driver system behavior. If I could easily test the drivers IB or owned a Klippel system, I'd do it that way. You are correct of course that some drivers are more suited to certain alignments than others.
Yes, I understand all of that. I was just telling the person, who was probably going to be using a large ported box, that it's okay to model it on his own and not depend solely on the results of a 6ft sealed box test... like another member might have suggested. Two different worlds, for that driver.

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post #82 of 307 Old 09-04-2019, 07:02 PM
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The Eminence 21 is more durable, lighter and has a big >50Hz advantage though, but is also a bigger diameter. Both are stellar subs but they are quite different in execution. I don't think I'd rush out to replace either one for the other unless the trade offs involved made a lot of sense. The 5400 is long ago discontinued anyway.
It's the durability and availability issues that have me searching for a replacement. I can't find 4 more TC's to have 8 so the Eminence was on my short list.

I'm not in any way dissatisfied, I merely wanted to not have limitations when I get my bigger house and want more. I was also looking toward pro-driver punch from that insane power to weight ratio.

Thanks for all you do Josh.
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post #83 of 307 Old 09-05-2019, 04:44 AM
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Mine arrives today!! It’s going in a 9 cu ft box tuned to 19hz for time being power off bridges inuke 3000. Can’t wait.
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post #84 of 307 Old 09-05-2019, 10:13 AM
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Just picked mine up. Unscathed thankfully
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Mine arrives today!! It’s going in a 9 cu ft box tuned to 19hz for time being power off bridges inuke 3000. Can’t wait.

Gonna be insane!
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post #86 of 307 Old 09-05-2019, 03:05 PM
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post #87 of 307 Old 09-05-2019, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
What's your recommendation for a sealed enclosure? I'd probably use mine in a large ported box, but just curious about the cabinet size differences.
Anything from the 4ft net used for DB testing to about 6 cubes would be fine. Really no reason to go any bigger. It's got enough motor to keep the enclosure Q low in small spaces. Sealed is super easy and forgiving.

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I was just telling the person, who was probably going to be using a large ported box, that it's okay to model it on his own and not depend solely on the results of a 6ft sealed box test... like another member might have suggested.
Gotcha. It's advisable to to take to sim whatever is getting built.
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post #88 of 307 Old 09-05-2019, 03:11 PM
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Packaging needs to be tweaked. While it looks ok, even with banding it stretched it out and ripped the sides of the boxes. I thought B&C's packing was lackluster but it works obviously. The DS115 both came tightly closed, well engineered cardboard folds apparently.

I have to get my screen down so these probably won't play today, just in time for the weekend though

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post #89 of 307 Old 09-05-2019, 04:04 PM
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I’d love to be able to order these but when are they going to be back in stock?


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post #90 of 307 Old 09-05-2019, 09:48 PM
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What is the weight of the driver?
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