Horns vs. direct radiators, and their sonic differences - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Popovich View Post
Just to play devil's advocate, while I understand that you're talking about sims, BTH may be talking about actual in-room measurements, and he may not have removed a sealed sub from location X and put the horn exactly in that same spot. This is a more reasonable thing when you consider the significant size differences. He also may have capped the LMS power when sealed and left a little on the table in the pursuit of not blowing them up.

I acknowledge and appreciate BTH's colorfulness while posting. That notwithstanding, I imagine he made the statement he did for a reason, and it may not mean the same thing as if you made the same statement, yet it may still be correct at the same time. Just a thought.

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True, but in a thread comparing different alignments, that would be severely out of context and misleading.
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post #32 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 08:03 PM
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Meh. It's all anecdotal evidence anyway. Plus no one listens to a sim, depends on the placement in the room, the room, the listening position, any target eq, etc. etc. Limiting the LMS sealed makes 'em fall short of the sim but real world makes a tremendous amount of sense. I'm all for apples to apples but the inability to provide that doesn't invalidate experiences, especially when considering the subjective nature of the question. That's always the case with these subjective threads.

Back to the original question, assuming somewhat competent design, IMO they all sound more similar than different when set up correctly and eq'd to the same target. My favorite is sealed, but only if you have enough cone area to reach target SPL levels without using much xmax. This ends up being a ton of cone area and is admittedly not for everyone, but it's my current fav.
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post #33 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Popovich View Post
Meh. It's all anecdotal evidence anyway. Plus no one listens to a sim, depends on the placement in the room, the room, the listening position, any target eq, etc. etc. Limiting the LMS sealed makes 'em fall short of the sim but real world makes a tremendous amount of sense. I'm all for apples to apples but the inability to provide that doesn't invalidate experiences, especially when considering the subjective nature of the question. That's always the case with these subjective threads.

Back to the original question, assuming somewhat competent design, IMO they all sound more similar than different when set up correctly and eq'd to the same target. My favorite is sealed, but only if you have enough cone area to reach target SPL levels without using much xmax. This ends up being a ton of cone area and is admittedly not for everyone, but it's my current fav.
Why would you compare subs with different positions in a room? It's irrelevant. A statement like "I picked up 24db going from sealed to horn at 15hz" is as straightforward as it is absurd.

IMO, they don't sound similar. Horns filter distortion not in the passband and generally have ugly resonances. Sealed has higher excursion and thus higher distortion.
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post #34 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 08:31 PM
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*If efficiency is the correct terminology here.

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These are all modeled with the same input voltage, so there will be no difference.

I'm sure you know this, so must have slipped your mind that impedance can vary a lot between box types with consequently different current demands and efficiency.

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post #35 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 08:54 PM
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*If efficiency is the correct terminology here.

I'm sure you know this, so must have slipped your mind that impedance can vary a lot between box types with consequently different current demands and efficiency.
Efficiency is a complex subject that really isn't worth getting into here, hence why I modeled them with the same voltage and modeled around their limits. It's not going to change whether done at 2.83v or 90v. Comparing apples to apples you're not gaining 24db at 15hz going from sealed to horn. Not sure why all the argument about this.
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post #36 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Why would you compare subs with different positions in a room? It's irrelevant. A statement like "I picked up 24db going from sealed to horn at 15hz" is as straightforward as it is absurd.

IMO, they don't sound similar. Horns filter distortion not in the passband and generally have ugly resonances. Sealed has higher excursion and thus higher distortion.
If the subs aren't the same size, you may not be able to put them in exactly the same position. That may ruffle your feathers for the legitimacy of an A/B comparison but it's true none the less. What are you going to do? Not have an opinion? Asterisk your experiences unless you can eliminate all variables except design differences? Nah. It's all anecdotal anyway.

You're entitled to your opinions same as anyone else, you can have your preferences same as I have mine. I was merely stating that you don't know that BTH didn't get more gain than your sim shows, so stating it authoritatively is incorrect, even if it has a high probability of being accurate. I agree with you that all else equal one design can't have 24dB more output than the other. I don't agree that means it's impossible to experience that in the context of setting up one's room.

For all I know BTH made a typo or was plain wrong and didn't get 24dB difference, I don't really care. I just think quoting someone and stating that they didn't get what they said they did is poor form. Obviously you're okay with that, and if that means you and I aren't going to hold hands and skip, I suspect we'll both be ok.

Stay positive,
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post #37 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Popovich View Post
If the subs aren't the same size, you may not be able to put them in exactly the same position. That may ruffle your feathers for the legitimacy of an A/B comparison but it's true none the less. What are you going to do? Not have an opinion? Asterisk your experiences unless you can eliminate all variables except design differences? Nah. It's all anecdotal anyway.

You're entitled to your opinions same as anyone else, you can have your preferences same as I have mine. I was merely stating that you don't know that BTH didn't get more gain than your sim shows, so stating it authoritatively is incorrect, even if it has a high probability of being accurate. I agree with you that all else equal one design can't have 24dB more output than the other. I don't agree that means it's impossible to experience that in the context of setting up one's room.

For all I know BTH made a typo or was plain wrong and didn't get 24dB difference, I don't really care. I just think quoting someone and stating that they didn't get what they said they did is poor form. Obviously you're okay with that, and if that means you and I aren't going to hold hands and skip, I suspect we'll both be ok.

Stay positive,
Chris
This isn't about opinions. It's about science. You obviously agree on that part.

It's poor form posting nonsense as data, hence my original reply. It's not like he doesn't have a history of doing so. Apples to apples, you're not gaining 24db at 15hz going from sealed to horn.

As clearly evident by some posts in this thread, there are people who will read that and assume you can gain 24db at 15hz just by switching to a horn, hence the need for a clarification.

The placement straw man doesn't hold up either, as a sealed enclosure will offer you the most placement options.
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post #38 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 09:28 PM
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I get what Notnyt is saying, there should be a qualifier. I have used FLH, TH, ported, LLT, sealed, IB, ported IB, etc in my room. Yes a horn will have more output compared to sealed. Not 24 dB more, no way no how. Maybe at some weird frequency due to a peak in the response where the sealed maybe flat, maybe, but not really going to sound good anyways. If we are building a 30 cubic foot horn, you can put at least 6 drivers in there sealed up and have more output, yes horns are cheaper because you can use one driver, but it can be a PITA to get a flat response and work well in room. It would definitely need lots of eq to get there, or sealed al over the room, plus full bandwidth! To me full bandwidth in a room that helps it is the way to go. Sealed is just much easier, just add enough for output needed. I had dual DTS-10s that I could bottom at spirited levels during WOTW, my two RE XXX 18s in an IB eats it up. My room is 1430 cubes(low ceiling).
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post #39 of 188 Old 05-14-2019, 03:20 AM
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agreed with @ notnyt and MK


+24db gain vs nope haha not a chance, more like 3-6db depending on factors. In a nut shell I like to think of horn config vs sealed or ported as doing the same work with less effort ie efficiency. Typical sub gets the cone area effectively doubled when in bandwidth of the horn box, while keeping cone excursion(distortion) down to minimal levels (allowing more power applied for one driver). Result can be greater output on less power than driving multiples of the same driver in sealed configuration. Box size and complexity is the cost. Eq for box knees by design. There's not much natural roll off, and needs HPF to protect when out of box range.

Real gains are when multiple horns ie stacks(coupled output) or just like multiple subs are preferred in single source to couple output or spread layout around to balance out.


I'm a stack fan. Two dts10's (4x12s) stacked in the theater, and 6 picowreckers (6x10s) stacked in a garage. It would take a small wall of 18s to replace the garage picos, but probably a full wall to replace the dts10s. Thats a lot of extra cones, amp juice, and wall power to consume to equal the same goals. Efficiency.
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post #40 of 188 Old 05-14-2019, 04:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Why would you compare subs with different positions in a room? It's irrelevant. A statement like "I picked up 24db going from sealed to horn at 15hz" is as straightforward as it is absurd.

IMO, they don't sound similar. Horns filter distortion not in the passband and generally have ugly resonances. Sealed has higher excursion and thus higher distortion.
..and ports compress, right? In your setup perhaps this is likely not an issue given the sheer multitude of large-diameter units, but that's not representative of general subs usage.

With regard to horn subs and said "ugly resonances," please explain. You mean within their usable passband? A familiar characteristic not least with tapped horns is their jagged upper band response, but it depends on the specific design when and how this becomes an issue, even with the same tuning frequency, and is to be worked around with some consideration and a steep low-pass filter. I find no issues with resonances within the usable range of my MW's, and in their upper band use no EQ.

Re: distortion I'm not sure I quite follow. Harmonics are filtered within the passband of FLH's through the horn loading (to a lesser degree with TH's), as well as any mechanical noises that would otherwise be sorely obvious via direct radiators. Distortion from both FLH's and TH's is very low, perhaps even lower from TH's when not pressed to their limits (where the opposite would likely be true), being that TH's have excursion minima at the tuning frequency (like ported subs, but over a broader range above the tuning fs) contrary to FLH's.

Just for fun I thought of using 8(!) MicroWreckers in your setup, stacked two and two per side with the mouths facing each other at the center. You'd lose some 10Hz extension, but apart from that (not that lack of extension below 20Hz is necessarily trivial, depending on who you're asking) I'd wager 8 MW's would easily equal the SPL of your current setup and be even "livelier" from 20Hz on up, but that's just me

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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I get what Notnyt is saying, there should be a qualifier. I have used FLH, TH, ported, LLT, sealed, IB, ported IB, etc in my room. Yes a horn will have more output compared to sealed. Not 24 dB more, no way no how. Maybe at some weird frequency due to a peak in the response where the sealed maybe flat, maybe, but not really going to sound good anyways. If we are building a 30 cubic foot horn, you can put at least 6 drivers in there sealed up and have more output, yes horns are cheaper because you can use one driver, but it can be a PITA to get a flat response and work well in room. It would definitely need lots of eq to get there, or sealed al over the room, plus full bandwidth! To me full bandwidth in a room that helps it is the way to go. Sealed is just much easier, just add enough for output needed. I had dual DTS-10s that I could bottom at spirited levels during WOTW, my two RE XXX 18s in an IB eats it up. My room is 1430 cubes(low ceiling).
When the solution of TH's is cheaper from the smaller count of units, though take up more space, why not have 4 or 6 or them scattered throughout the listening room? Flat response, even without EQ, would be much easier achieved this way, and give you loads of headroom to boot. Ceiling mounting the TH's could be a way to avoid floor space being occupied - oh well, perhaps not with a low ceiling.. I'd also suggest, though at the expense of extension (always it seems to come down to the want for deep extension - perhaps at a price too costly to pay?), that other TH's could be better sounding than the DTS-10. The TH-50 and others come to mind.

Through all of this, where's the talk of the actual sound of different sub topologies here? Lingering on +120dB SPL's is just that - sheer output. Not to discredit the importance of headroom, on the contrary, but what about how it sounds below 100dB's, and if we're beyond that as well?

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post #41 of 188 Old 05-14-2019, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
You've gained massive resonances.....

Stop right there. Lot's of people LOVE resonances and distortion. I'm one of the "Cultists" who uses Infinite Baffle subwoofers, which have little distortion. There are a fair number of people who have built IB subwoofers who then change them into giant sealed boxes or add small subs and say it's because they want that extra "thump" or "midbass"..... that's all bullcrap. House curve EQ can add whatever extra output wanted at whatever Hz, a properly sized IB has WAY more ability than your room or ears can stand. What people are really missing with IB are the resonances, distortion... the "box" sounds you get with pretty much every other design.


It is what it is. You like what you like. My Sony SAW-12 in my living room that has been with me 20 years now has a boomy sound that I have grown to love. It's part of the family, never failing, always there. It honestly took me awhile to get used to the flawlessly clean sound and unlimited dynamic range of my IB. I thought something was wrong with it at first or that I was sitting in a massive null... but nope. The REW plots show a flat line from below 10Hz to above 120Hz. I still posit that an IB would be a perfect match for the 2.0 "purists" who claim a subwoofer, any subwoofer, is a crude sledgehammer that will do nothing but distract from the sonic purity of their perfectly toed-in speakers.


Anyway.... measurements aren't everything.
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post #42 of 188 Old 05-14-2019, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rezag View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Why would you compare subs with different positions in a room? It's irrelevant. A statement like "I picked up 24db going from sealed to horn at 15hz" is as straightforward as it is absurd.

IMO, they don't sound similar. Horns filter distortion not in the passband and generally have ugly resonances. Sealed has higher excursion and thus higher distortion.
..and ports compress, right? In your setup perhaps this is likely not an issue given the sheer multitude of large-diameter units, but that's not representative of general subs usage.

With regard to horn subs and said "ugly resonances," please explain. You mean within their usable passband? A familiar characteristic not least with tapped horns is their jagged upper band response, but it depends on the specific design when and how this becomes an issue, even with the same tuning frequency, and is to be worked around with some consideration and a steep low-pass filter. I find no issues with resonances within the usable range of my MW's, and in their upper band use no EQ.

Re: distortion I'm not sure I quite follow. Harmonics are filtered within the passband of FLH's through the horn loading (to a lesser degree with TH's), as well as any mechanical noises that would otherwise be sorely obvious via direct radiators. Distortion from both FLH's and TH's is very low, perhaps even lower from TH's when not pressed to their limits (where the opposite would likely be true), being that TH's have excursion minima at the tuning frequency (like ported subs, but over a broader range above the tuning fs) contrary to FLH's.

Just for fun I thought of using 8(!) MicroWreckers in your setup, stacked two and two per side with the mouths facing each other at the center. You'd lose some 10Hz extension, but apart from that (not that lack of extension below 20Hz is necessarily trivial, depending on who you're asking) I'd wager 8 MW's would easily equal the SPL of your current setup and be even "livelier" from 20Hz on up, but that's just me [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I get what Notnyt is saying, there should be a qualifier. I have used FLH, TH, ported, LLT, sealed, IB, ported IB, etc in my room. Yes a horn will have more output compared to sealed. Not 24 dB more, no way no how. Maybe at some weird frequency due to a peak in the response where the sealed maybe flat, maybe, but not really going to sound good anyways. If we are building a 30 cubic foot horn, you can put at least 6 drivers in there sealed up and have more output, yes horns are cheaper because you can use one driver, but it can be a PITA to get a flat response and work well in room. It would definitely need lots of eq to get there, or sealed al over the room, plus full bandwidth! To me full bandwidth in a room that helps it is the way to go. Sealed is just much easier, just add enough for output needed. I had dual DTS-10s that I could bottom at spirited levels during WOTW, my two RE XXX 18s in an IB eats it up. My room is 1430 cubes(low ceiling).
When the solution of TH's is cheaper from the smaller count of units, though take up more space, why not have 4 or 6 or them scattered throughout the listening room? Flat response, even without EQ, would be much easier achieved this way, and give you loads of headroom to boot. Ceiling mounting the TH's could be a way to avoid floor space being occupied - oh well, perhaps not with a low ceiling.. I'd also suggest, though at the expense of extension (always it seems to come down to the want for deep extension - perhaps at a price too costly to pay?), that other TH's could be better sounding than the DTS-10. The TH-50 and others come to mind.

Through all of this, where's the talk of the actual sound of different sub topologies here? Lingering on +120dB SPL's is just that - sheer output. Not to discredit the importance of headroom, on the contrary, but what about how it sounds below 100dB's, and if we're beyond that as well?
Because IMHO when done correctly, matching output, the lower extending full bandwidth systems always sound better in my room. The sound of the horn that makes them special is the lower distortion it has when kept in check. You could always over drive anything. My point was if money is an issue and not space, a horn is awesome. If money is not an issue you can fill that giant horn with many drivers and get full bandwidth and even more output. Yes, much more expensive.
The DTS-10 has better extension than the TH-50 so I would rather have that. I had 4 cinema 20s across the front wall at one time as well.
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post #43 of 188 Old 05-14-2019, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rezag View Post
..and ports compress, right? In your setup perhaps this is likely not an issue given the sheer multitude of large-diameter units, but that's not representative of general subs usage.
When properly sized, compression will be a trivial issue. Woofers also compress at higher outputs. Just because an undersized port compresses isn't a reason to not use a ported enclosure.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rezag View Post
With regard to horn subs and said "ugly resonances," please explain. You mean within their usable passband? A familiar characteristic not least with tapped horns is their jagged upper band response, but it depends on the specific design when and how this becomes an issue, even with the same tuning frequency, and is to be worked around with some consideration and a steep low-pass filter. I find no issues with resonances within the usable range of my MW's, and in their upper band use no EQ.
Here's a DTS-10 for example. You can see the ringing at 55hz. Huge resonance.




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Originally Posted by rezag View Post
Re: distortion I'm not sure I quite follow.
You misread, my distortion remarks were in regards to sealed units. I said " Sealed has higher excursion and thus higher distortion "


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Originally Posted by rezag View Post
Harmonics are filtered within the passband of FLH's through the horn loading (to a lesser degree with TH's), as well as any mechanical noises that would otherwise be sorely obvious via direct radiators. Distortion from both FLH's and TH's is very low, perhaps even lower from TH's when not pressed to their limits (where the opposite would likely be true), being that TH's have excursion minima at the tuning frequency (like ported subs, but over a broader range above the tuning fs) contrary to FLH's.
Harmonics outside of the passband are filtered. If one lands on a resonance, then it's a different story.

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Originally Posted by rezag View Post
Just for fun I thought of using 8(!) MicroWreckers in your setup, stacked two and two per side with the mouths facing each other at the center. You'd lose some 10Hz extension, but apart from that (not that lack of extension below 20Hz is necessarily trivial, depending on who you're asking) I'd wager 8 MW's would easily equal the SPL of your current setup and be even "livelier" from 20Hz on up, but that's just me
You'd wager incorrectly. See the sims I posted above comparing to a horn with the LMS 5400 in them.

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Originally Posted by rezag View Post
When the solution of TH's is cheaper from the smaller count of units, though take up more space, why not have 4 or 6 or them scattered throughout the listening room? Flat response, even without EQ, would be much easier achieved this way, and give you loads of headroom to boot. Ceiling mounting the TH's could be a way to avoid floor space being occupied - oh well, perhaps not with a low ceiling.. I'd also suggest, though at the expense of extension (always it seems to come down to the want for deep extension - perhaps at a price too costly to pay?), that other TH's could be better sounding than the DTS-10. The TH-50 and others come to mind.

Through all of this, where's the talk of the actual sound of different sub topologies here? Lingering on +120dB SPL's is just that - sheer output. Not to discredit the importance of headroom, on the contrary, but what about how it sounds below 100dB's, and if we're beyond that as well?
I've had horns in my space before, have built bunches of them as well. I prefer ported. I'm not budget limited so I can just use more woofers in the same space that horns would take up and extended bandwidth at similar output levels. Also flat response without EQ from a horn in room? Not likely.

Last edited by notnyt; 05-14-2019 at 12:15 PM.
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post #44 of 188 Old 05-14-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by S_rangeBrew View Post
Stop right there. Lot's of people LOVE resonances and distortion. I'm one of the "Cultists" who uses Infinite Baffle subwoofers, which have little distortion. There are a fair number of people who have built IB subwoofers who then change them into giant sealed boxes or add small subs and say it's because they want that extra "thump" or "midbass"..... that's all bullcrap. House curve EQ can add whatever extra output wanted at whatever Hz, a properly sized IB has WAY more ability than your room or ears can stand. What people are really missing with IB are the resonances, distortion... the "box" sounds you get with pretty much every other design.


It is what it is. You like what you like. My Sony SAW-12 in my living room that has been with me 20 years now has a boomy sound that I have grown to love. It's part of the family, never failing, always there. It honestly took me awhile to get used to the flawlessly clean sound and unlimited dynamic range of my IB. I thought something was wrong with it at first or that I was sitting in a massive null... but nope. The REW plots show a flat line from below 10Hz to above 120Hz. I still posit that an IB would be a perfect match for the 2.0 "purists" who claim a subwoofer, any subwoofer, is a crude sledgehammer that will do nothing but distract from the sonic purity of their perfectly toed-in speakers.


Anyway.... measurements aren't everything.
IB will have similar distortion to sealed, if not increased power compression in the upper ranges do to the generally weak motors.

House curve isn't going to give you the uncompressed transients of a better driver.

The whole IB cult thing talking about the "box" sound is fairly nonsensical. I've yet to see someone actually describe it in technical terms, probably because it's not really a thing. Sure bad subs will sound bad, but there's nothing inherently wrong about having a sub in a box when the system is designed properly.

An IB also does not guarantee you a flat response, nor is your dynamic range infinite, or even above what a sealed sub setup would be capable of.

The IB cult nonsense is almost as bad as the 2.0 purist nonsense. Frankly a bit tired of it and all of the inflated claims. Your subs are still in a box, it's just a big one.

All that said, I will agree that some like the sound of added distortion and resonances. I prefer accuracy.
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post #45 of 188 Old 05-14-2019, 03:45 PM
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I'm honored that you guys are ACTUALLY proof reading my posts to such a degree. Now I'm super-nervous (... thanks! )

Cracking out the modeling software to double-check figures, looks like only a 15db difference. Be it 12db or 15db the difference between sealed and horned is HUGE. (It still felt like +200db if you ask me... )


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These look different than the graphs posted in the HzHorn thread since I actually enabled complex when modeling.
Not sure how accurate that feature is in this particular case, as this is what I actually measured in-room. There is no nasty peak at 20hz and the only null of any major significance is around 88hz. 180 phase reversal at ~10hz. Now I know my room has a null in that region so it could be made worse by that. Measuring it outside would likely yield a smoother chart, no?


With EQ it is usable to about ~120hz, above that it falls into a null and then resonance.
There is a lobe between ~19hz and ~32hz which if you apply a -3db cut to make it flat it will help avoid the "supposed" excursion limit in that zone; which I've never encountered in actual use with movies and music (... knocks on wood.)


HornResp always makes things look worse than they are because of the 4:3 scaling it presents it as. But here is a crude overlay.


and yes a dual ported LMS-18 in a comparably large box will do roughly 125db @ 15hz @ 7000w, and although below xmech it is 3kW beyond the rated rms figure. Also twice the driver cost. Like a ~$1000 sub vs a ~$2000 sub. That is exactly the type of thing when I mentioned it was an oversimplification.

In any case, nobody can buy these drivers anymore. Putting a different driver in the horn would give substantially different results (likely for the worse). I suppose that is another advantage that ported boxes have, they are far more forgiving of substitute drivers.
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post #46 of 188 Old 05-14-2019, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I'm honored that you guys are ACTUALLY proof reading my posts to such a degree. Now I'm super-nervous (... thanks! )

Cracking out the modeling software to double-check figures, looks like only a 15db difference. Be it 12db or 15db the difference between sealed and horned is HUGE. (It still felt like +200db if you ask me... )
As I modeled, it's 12db. The complex inductance modeling is important and makes the results far more accurate.



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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Not sure how accurate that feature is in this particular case, as this is what I actually measured in-room. There is no nasty peak at 20hz and the only null of any major significance is around 88hz. 180 phase reversal at ~10hz. Now I know my room has a null in that region so it could be made worse by that. Measuring it outside would likely yield a smoother chart, no?
In room measurements are not very useful, that said, the simulation without inductance modeling is flat, your measurements are 5db hot around 24hz.

Either way, even if we call it say 14db, since the modeled difference was 14.6db not using complex inductance, the original 24db statement is still off by a factor of 10. Not so trivial a difference.

Also, you should use the same app to model so it's apples to apples, hence why I modeled them both in hornresp.

I'd trust the complex inductance model more than the model without it.

Shame about these drivers. I wonder how the new eminence 21 will perform compared to the ipal.
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post #47 of 188 Old 05-14-2019, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by S_rangeBrew View Post
unlimited dynamic range of my IB
unlimited?
now WHO is being overly-enthusiastic?

CD and youtube is 16 bits. Bluray and exotic cloud services are 24bits. Which is FAR from unlimited dynamic range.

Same for the noisefloor of DAC's, amplifiers and rooms.

As far as cones go, unless yours can move supersonic (which they can't) you are limited to 0 ATM to 1 ATM on Earth, under normal conditions.
Flesh vaporizes at that SPL. But still FAR from unlimited dynamics.

Nice try, but I'm not that sleepy or drunk (yet! )
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post #48 of 188 Old 05-15-2019, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Because IMHO when done correctly, matching output, the lower extending full bandwidth systems always sound better in my room.
So, extension is the marker here. What's the use of extension below 20Hz, i.e. where or how does it make a sonic difference for the better - for movies mostly, or music also?

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The sound of the horn that makes them special is the lower distortion it has when kept in check. You could always over drive anything.
"Kept in check" - like, within "safe" operational SPL-range? With, say, two DTS-10's in a moderately sized room headroom should be substantial - depending of course on one's need for SPL. Still I gather you'd have to hit them hard to come anywhere near their limits, and if anything horns strike me as the topology with the benefits in regards to sensitivity and overall output compared to direct radiating solutions - certainly on a driver to driver basis, and their count.

A key aspect with horn subs and what makes them special to my mind has to do with them being horns, in that it acts as an acoustical transformer between the driver cone and the air to which it loads. This makes the bass sound different compared to a direct radiating sub, and is what I really cherish here.

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My point was if money is an issue and not space, a horn is awesome. If money is not an issue you can fill that giant horn with many drivers and get full bandwidth and even more output. Yes, much more expensive.
Indeed, more expensive, and more (i.e.: "full") bandwidth. But how do they compare sonically within the frequency range they do share, when kept in check?

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The DTS-10 has better extension than the TH-50 so I would rather have that. I had 4 cinema 20s across the front wall at one time as well.
The DTS-10 goes deeper, yes, but it also has a limited upper band performance (and resonance) because of its lower tuning frequency - that's what you pay for here - which is going to affect the performance of its cleaner, lower operating range, and of course dictate of lower XO. While the DTS-10 goes deeper than the TH-50 I could easily imagine the latter actually sounding better from 20Hz on up, where most musical information resides, as well as the soundtracks for movies although much deeper frequencies are thrown into the mix here.

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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
When properly sized, compression will be a trivial issue. Woofers also compress at higher outputs. Just because an undersized port compresses isn't a reason to not use a ported enclosure.
With the SPL-rate going here port compression is more a given than not (only amplified with more extension), unless a multitude of subs with large diameter drivers is used (which is costly and space consuming) - like in your case. But again, that's hardly representative. You're picking your own setup as an example for the best scenario - and one admirable for that - just like you're picking the most pronounced example for horn resonance below, when in fact it's hardly representative either.

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Here's a DTS-10 for example. You can see the ringing at 55hz. Huge resonance.
Which goes to show: one example of a tapped with one of the deepest tuning frequencies out there with a limited upper band to follow. Of course, if extension anywhere near 10Hz is sought for then this is bound to happen with a tapped horn, not that the resonance displayed is necessarily a characteristic given for any tapped horn design with a similar low tuning fs. Resonances with horns can be moved out of sonic reach at the expense of extension, but it seems this is the trait few are willing to sacrifice here.

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You misread, my distortion remarks were in regards to sealed units. I said " Sealed has higher excursion and thus higher distortion "
Got it, thanks.

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Harmonics outside of the passband are filtered. If one lands on a resonance, then it's a different story.
I fail to see the relevance here, but that likely lands on my limited tech skill.

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You'd wager incorrectly. See the sims I posted above comparing to a horn with the LMS 5400 in them.
Must've missed them.

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I've had horns in my space before, have built bunches of them as well. I prefer ported. I'm not budget limited so I can just use more woofers in the same space that horns would take up and extended bandwidth at similar output levels. Also flat response without EQ from a horn in room? Not likely.
As inquired earlier in my reply to @MKtheater , how do you find the horn subs to sonically differ from your current ported solution? Does your dismissal of flat response of horns without EQ rest with the experience of the DTS-10 only, or other alternatives as well? A higher tuning frequency would make a noticeable difference via horns, with any EQ to be used sparingly. Of course, I take it all comes down to extension to somewhere around 10Hz, a reach that would see horns fail on many accounts.

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I had cinema F-20s, and pro audio horns in my room before. Once you have full bandwidth and get used to it it is very difficult to go back to higher tunes. Midbass is easy to get, pro audio has been doing it for longer than I have been into this hobby. The hard part is getting a system to sound more realistic no matter what you listen to and all limited by the low end and where a proper room makes sense. I would never put a high tuned horn or port in my room ever again, they never sound as accurate as a full bandwidth system. Of course my room aides big time in extension, I built it that way.

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Originally Posted by rezag View Post
A key aspect with horn subs and what makes them special to my mind has to do with them being horns, in that it acts as an acoustical transformer between the driver cone and the air to which it loads. This makes the bass sound different compared to a direct radiating sub, and is what I really cherish here.
Do you have any evidence of that, or is that just your speculation?
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I had cinema F-20s, and pro audio horns in my room before. Once you have full bandwidth and get used to it it is very difficult to go back to higher tunes. Midbass is easy to get, pro audio has been doing it for longer than I have been into this hobby. The hard part is getting a system to sound more realistic no matter what you listen to and all limited by the low end and where a proper room makes sense. I would never put a high tuned horn or port in my room ever again, they never sound as accurate as a full bandwidth system. Of course my room aides big time in extension, I built it that way.
I think it's interesting you've come to the conclusion you have given your extensive experience with a range of different sub topologies. In my view a horn sub tuned to 20-25Hz isn't a "high tune" by any means (but rather "full-range"), for that I'd say we need to go above 30Hz. To you and others here full-range may only qualify with extension to 10-15Hz flat and a usable range into the single digits? Accuracy to me is certainly attained with honest ~20Hz extension, but accuracy isn't extension alone.

Still, I find it interesting that you value extension as much as you do. For movies it would make sense to me; music less so.

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Do you have any evidence of that, or is that just your speculation?
I have evidence, yes: me. You know something called ears? Sorry for being sarcastic, but as they say the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and to me as well as others I know listening to horn subs vs. direct radiators comes to the clear, same verdict of named sonic discrepancies, although we mayn't describe these differences using the exact same terminology.

What other evidence would you need or even prefer - measurements, or a 1000 blindfolded testpersons that confirms your own impressions? I don't want to disregard measurements and cold hard facts, as they say; we are many who are fortunate that developers and such folks have the technical skills, patience and trial-and-error approach that leads to horn subs or of other topologies for us to build - even from free plans. Some people don't have to rely on others for development, and venture into the DIY-realm from ground up. I bow to their bravery and skill, even sense of adventure.

However, when it comes to sitting in front of the stereo (or HT-setup) I believe it's important to let measurements be measurements, and let listening impressions form their own valid conclusion. You can't measure everything, and when I hear something that has no known means to be "verified," other than through the agreement of others with actual experience, it's still valid intel, so to speak. At the end of the day listening impressions simply have to be.
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Originally Posted by rezag View Post
I think it's interesting you've come to the conclusion you have given your extensive experience with a range of different sub topologies. In my view a horn sub tuned to 20-25Hz isn't a "high tune" by any means (but rather "full-range"), for that I'd say we need to go above 30Hz. To you and others here full-range may only qualify with extension to 10-15Hz flat and a usable range into the single digits? Accuracy to me is certainly attained with honest ~20Hz extension, but accuracy isn't extension alone.

Still, I find it interesting that you value extension as much as you do. For movies it would make sense to me; music less so.



I have evidence, yes: me. You know something called ears? Sorry for being sarcastic, but as they say the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and to me as well as others I know listening to horn subs vs. direct radiators comes to the clear, same verdict of named sonic discrepancies, although we mayn't describe these differences using the exact same terminology.

What other evidence would you need or even prefer - measurements, or a 1000 blindfolded testpersons that confirms your own impressions? I don't want to disregard measurements and cold hard facts, as they say; we are many who are fortunate that developers and such folks have the technical skills, patience and trial-and-error approach that leads to horn subs or of other topologies for us to build - even from free plans. Some people don't have to rely on others for development, and venture into the DIY-realm from ground up. I bow to their bravery and skill, even sense of adventure.

However, when it comes to sitting in front of the stereo (or HT-setup) I believe it's important to let measurements be measurements, and let listening impressions form their own valid conclusion. You can't measure everything, and when I hear something that has no known means to be "verified," other than through the agreement of others with actual experience, it's still valid intel, so to speak. At the end of the day listening impressions simply have to be.

20-25hz low end is not full range by any means.

You pretty much can measure everything. If you can't correlate, that's on you.

Can't remember what track this was... Maybe Tarantula? This was mic'd in room



Here's another song I can't remember mic'd in room... and this isn't even movie content.

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20-25hz low end is not full range by any means.
That's what I suggested/questioned above, that it isn't to some. Being that frequencies this low, that is below some 10Hz (I'd seriously question the use of anything significantly below 10Hz, both with reference to available source material, and that it requires radiation area/size and power that boardes the insane for it to be scarily worthwhile), have actual impact that can be felt it makes sense to debunk 20Hz being full range, but to a lot of people honest 20Hz with serious impact will come a long way, and easily qualify as "full range."

The 10-20Hz range, or certainly 10-15Hz maintained as a more or less flat response seems to be a very different animal compared to typical hifi-goals, and being someone who isn't a stranger to "controversial" speaker choices (i.e.: all-horns) I can relate to the awesomeness of simply following it through. So indeed: kudos to the ones who ventures into these realms of sub-bass.

That being said I find too much emphasis is placed on extension as a goal in itself, as it excludes topological choices that to my ears have the upper hand in the actual quality of bass.

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You pretty much can measure everything. If you can't correlate, that's on you.
I simply disagree. If it can't be correlated it can as well be a shortcoming of measurement technique or whatever here.

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Can't remember what track this was... Maybe Tarantula? This was mic'd in room



Here's another song I can't remember mic'd in room... and this isn't even movie content.

Through the right setup, like yours and others here, I'm sure listening to such a track would be an experience.
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post #54 of 188 Old 05-16-2019, 08:21 AM
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I have evidence, yes: me. You know something called ears? Sorry for being sarcastic, but as they say the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and to me as well as others I know listening to horn subs vs. direct radiators comes to the clear, same verdict of named sonic discrepancies, although we mayn't describe these differences using the exact same terminology.
I thought maybe you had run (ran? always hated that one) across some research I hadn't seen.

Ears are fine, but as continues to be demonstrated our hearing while sometimes impressive is unfortunately completely dependent on and sometimes prisoner to our brains.

There are too many things to unravel IMO in being able to make a claim as to the mechanism of perceived quality difference. Skipping past the question of whether you could even hear the difference given level matched options playing from the same location blinded, you'd have differing distortion levels, power compression, resonances etc that all could be singularly or partially responsible for any difference. To say a difference in quality is because of acoustic coupling seems to be pretty far out on a limb.

Perhaps it is. I was curious... I certainly haven't read all the research that is out there. And as I have space and budget for pretty much any option in an upcoming build I am genuinely interested in whether I should pursue giant horns instead of giant options B, C, D...
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I had cinema F-20s, and pro audio horns in my room before. Once you have full bandwidth and get used to it it is very difficult to go back to higher tunes. Midbass is easy to get, pro audio has been doing it for longer than I have been into this hobby. The hard part is getting a system to sound more realistic no matter what you listen to and all limited by the low end and where a proper room makes sense. I would never put a high tuned horn or port in my room ever again, they never sound as accurate as a full bandwidth system. Of course my room aides big time in extension, I built it that way.
THIS.

Horn fans endlessly tout how little distortion there is.
Almost any well built DR can play close to zero distortion from 30 and up.
Ive heard plenty of horns, sure they sound wonderful from 30 to 80.

So what? look at the dts10 spectrogram. It barely touches 20hz and has nothing below that.
yes you can put it in a corner...thats pretty restrictive.

So a horn sounds great in a limited band...if you need massive spl in that band they work great and you can use a less expensive driver...if that matters i guess.

Im totally with MK. Weve had endless debates in Klipsch too. Bottom line is sure that horn sounds great but so do DRs.

Believing you dont need 20 and down is one way to justify a horn being a great choice.
Liking mostly music it makes sense, but arguing its better doesnt work for me.

To me the only discernable advatantage is getting huge spl in a limited range using just one driver. The lack of flexibilty in design, placement and honestly, capability, causes me to go elsewhere.
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post #56 of 188 Old 05-16-2019, 12:24 PM
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Exactly, I have horns that sound great in my room but they were not easy to integrate and band limited. My SLLT, sealed, and IB were all full bandwidth with a naturally smooth response which required no EQ. Yes, you need multiple drivers but well worth it. I do like horns, but I prefer full bandwidth and once you have that plus the low distortion and dynamics of a horn, you can’t go back, well, I can’t.

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post #57 of 188 Old 05-17-2019, 10:51 AM
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It barely touches 20hz and has nothing below that.
Low end cut off is actually 11hz. Technically on the latest cabinet can get 9hz (I have one). I would never say it has nothing below 20.

True horns allow to do more with less, especially a tapped horn. If have budget for drivers, and amps in multiples cool DR is for you. Limit on that is wall power and your deep pockets IMO. If want more for less then tapped horns allow a perfect platform to to so.

Ability to rip faces off(sorta ), gut groin punch, and make bass shakers obsolete with 4 Alpine SWS 12's in 2 dts10 cabinets running on 2 ep4k's(bargain amp), says a lot. Sure bandwidth is 11hz-70hz. Running danley recommended eq filters for the cabinets to tame the knees and smooth the curve. The knees at 55hz etc matter little with the correct eq applied.

Side setup running is ability to run essentially 7x 18's worth of cone area (6 picowreckers) using 6 inexpensive alpine (W)-S series in a tapped horn picowrecker all running off ONE ep4k amplifier(which we all know the ep4k is a bargain basement amp). The output would make anyone giggle if had in a theater room. Sure their cutoff is rolled at HPF @20hz , but still gets low enough for movie enjoyment.

It's a bit more to deal with, but the efficiency is worth it to us. TH fan since the first DTS20.
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My DTS-10s were flat to 8hz in my room, needed lots of love to get smooth though. I ran them 12 dB hot from 8-80hz.

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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post
I thought maybe you had run (ran? always hated that one) across some research I hadn't seen.
I can't say that I have.

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Ears are fine, but as continues to be demonstrated our hearing while sometimes impressive is unfortunately completely dependent on and sometimes prisoner to our brains.
True, but it's all about training, and moreover some seem to have inherently better judgment of perceived impressions than others. That said not to be arrogant or a know-it-better, but that is just the way it is. To some folks measurements are everything, but what measures well doesn't necessarily sound well (this may apply more to main speakers than subs), or at least it's not an exhaustive approach on sound. There's only one way about it; learn to use one's ears and trust them. And, dare I say, if you don't - well, then I guess measurements are what has to come to the aid as that which deduces what sounds good in each and every case..

Quote:
There are too many things to unravel IMO in being able to make a claim as to the mechanism of perceived quality difference. Skipping past the question of whether you could even hear the difference given level matched options playing from the same location blinded, you'd have differing distortion levels, power compression, resonances etc that all could be singularly or partially responsible for any difference. To say a difference in quality is because of acoustic coupling seems to be pretty far out on a limb.
There's certainly truth to this, I'll give you that. In my own case I've moved them MicroWreckers around everywhere in my listening room to know quite confidently their "signature" imprinting, or even, to a degree, lack thereof. I've heard many others setups coming to the same overall conclusion on horns vs. direct radiators. Whether it's acoustic coupling alone that makes the difference in how horns sound? Granted, I couldn't and probably shouldn't say.

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Perhaps it is. I was curious... I certainly haven't read all the research that is out there. And as I have space and budget for pretty much any option in an upcoming build I am genuinely interested in whether I should pursue giant horns instead of giant options B, C, D...
I appreciate your thoughts, and curiosity is a good thing. Phew, I'd like to give you some advice on your upcoming journey here, but if anything it would be to form your own conclusions as independently as you can. Apart from trying to trust my ears I have a knack for "decoding" other's impressions, written or spoken, and converting it into what I believe it means sonically. Sounds obscure? Well, it has been part of my own research, and I would assume it hasn't been in vain.

For what it's worth: even with unlimited monetary means I wouldn't steer you towards the multiple direct radiating big drivers in ported enclosures, IB or other, simply because I find DR subs to be more ponderous, too solid and "heavy-ish" than a good horn (to some this "trait" may be desirable, but to my ears has little to do with accuracy and anything that aids integration with the mains). You need 10Hz more or less flat? I guess that rules out most horns except something like the DTS-10. Unless movies are your thing exclusively and you want to explore every avenue of their ULF track range, I'd forget about anything much below 20Hz (even if 15Hz would give you close to everything) and that can furthermore be crossed to the mains cleanly no lower than some 80Hz, and go for as many big tapped horn subs as you can; the effortless, smooth, vibrating-the-air and enveloping quality this produces is truly awesome and inherently musical - to my ears. Nothing I've heard comes really close.

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Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
THIS.

Horn fans endlessly tout how little distortion there is.
Almost any well built DR can play close to zero distortion from 30 and up.
Ive heard plenty of horns, sure they sound wonderful from 30 to 80.

So what? look at the dts10 spectrogram. It barely touches 20hz and has nothing below that.
yes you can put it in a corner...thats pretty restrictive.

So a horn sounds great in a limited band...if you need massive spl in that band they work great and you can use a less expensive driver...if that matters i guess.

Im totally with MK. Weve had endless debates in Klipsch too. Bottom line is sure that horn sounds great but so do DRs.

Believing you dont need 20 and down is one way to justify a horn being a great choice.
Liking mostly music it makes sense, but arguing its better doesnt work for me.

To me the only discernable advatantage is getting huge spl in a limited range using just one driver. The lack of flexibilty in design, placement and honestly, capability, causes me to go elsewhere.
Mentioned band limitation of horns seems out of proportion and being inaccurate on the DTS-10 - as pointed out by others here. Huge SPL's from horns is a good thing, because it translates into more headroom and even lower distortion. Have them in numbers and you're even better off.

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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Exactly, I have horns that sound great in my room but they were not easy to integrate and band limited. My SLLT, sealed, and IB were all full bandwidth with a naturally smooth response which required no EQ. Yes, you need multiple drivers but well worth it. I do like horns, but I prefer full bandwidth and once you have that plus the low distortion and dynamics of a horn, you can’t go back, well, I can’t.
EQ would be in reference to the upper band, and with horns that aren't tuned below 20Hz (depending also on the specific design) sparing EQ, if any, would do just fine, not least with a steeper low-pass. It seems the supposed band limitation of horns is less limited than the actual breadth of horn varieties experienced. Fair enough, if extension much below 20Hz is so important horns may be the lesser deal here.

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Originally Posted by autox320 View Post
Low end cut off is actually 11hz. Technically on the latest cabinet can get 9hz (I have one). I would never say it has nothing below 20.

True horns allow to do more with less, especially a tapped horn. If have budget for drivers, and amps in multiples cool DR is for you. Limit on that is wall power and your deep pockets IMO. If want more for less then tapped horns allow a perfect platform to to so.

Ability to rip faces off(sorta ), gut groin punch, and make bass shakers obsolete with 4 Alpine SWS 12's in 2 dts10 cabinets running on 2 ep4k's(bargain amp), says a lot. Sure bandwidth is 11hz-70hz. Running danley recommended eq filters for the cabinets to tame the knees and smooth the curve. The knees at 55hz etc matter little with the correct eq applied.

Side setup running is ability to run essentially 7x 18's worth of cone area (6 picowreckers) using 6 inexpensive alpine (W)-S series in a tapped horn picowrecker all running off ONE ep4k amplifier(which we all know the ep4k is a bargain basement amp). The output would make anyone giggle if had in a theater room. Sure their cutoff is rolled at HPF @20hz , but still gets low enough for movie enjoyment.

It's a bit more to deal with, but the efficiency is worth it to us. TH fan since the first DTS20.
THIS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
My DTS-10s were flat to 8hz in my room, needed lots of love to get smooth though. I ran them 12 dB hot from 8-80hz.
12dB's?? That's hot for sure.
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post #60 of 188 Old 05-17-2019, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rezag View Post
I can't say that I have.
To some folks measurements are everything, but what measures well doesn't necessarily sound well (this may apply more to main speakers than subs), or at least it's not an exhaustive approach on sound. There's only one way about it; learn to use one's ears and trust them. And, dare I say, if you don't - well, then I guess measurements are what has to come to the aid as that which deduces what sounds good in each and every case..
This is painfully wrong. If something measures well, it will sound good. If it doesn't, you're not looking at the right measurements or you're misinterpreting them.

Also, the DTS-10 is ~25db less capable at 10hz than it is at 20hz.
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