Horns vs. direct radiators, and their sonic differences - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 188 Old 05-17-2019, 10:18 PM
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One thing to consider is the DTS-10 was designed by the master of the TH. This is not some entry level sub, in kit form the two I had with amp cost more than my IB with amp and the IB was much better. It was smooth from 3-80hz without EQ and could play louder than the Horn setup which meant even less distortion at my levels. I have also had Lilmike cinema F-20, four of them in the same room. They were great, just missed that something the DTS-10s had which was joy up to par to the IB or ported IB. Remember, the DTS-10s cost the most too.

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post #62 of 188 Old 05-18-2019, 04:30 AM
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Leaving this here for those interested.

DTS10 and TH50
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post17396395


All other topic links about TH spawned by the DTS10 kit release.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post17615778

True cost wise now today could probably build a wall vs DTS10's. Once again I say the kits were bargain of the century on AVS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
This is painfully wrong. If something measures well, it will sound good. If it doesn't, you're not looking at the right measurements or you're misinterpreting them.

Also, the DTS-10 is ~25db less capable at 10hz than it is at 20hz.
20db down says approx 100x less loud at 10hz. . . sure doesn't sound and feel like it in my room.

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post #63 of 188 Old 05-18-2019, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by autox320 View Post
20db down says approx 100x less loud at 10hz. . . sure doesn't sound and feel like it in my room.
According to Tom Danley's own published spec sheet on the DTS-10, it is almost exactly 25db down at 10hz from 20hz.
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post #64 of 188 Old 05-18-2019, 05:07 AM
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102 to 83
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post #65 of 188 Old 05-18-2019, 05:54 AM
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Here's a DTS-10 for example. You can see the ringing at 55hz. Huge resonance.


My comments about the DTS 10 were directed at this spectrogram provided earlier.

If this is flat to 10 or 8 or 3 then wow thats great, it sure doesnt look like it to me. Now if it can be eqd there that is still impressive, but the spectrogram provided looks like sxxx if thats what someone calls a smooth response from 3 or 8 or 10 to 80.

The DTS10 then may be a good example of a horn reaching lower, but not doing so with the accuracy that we have been discussing.

If that spectrogram is accurate, I have no idea wbat the point of building that one is from the perspective of accuracy/low distortion. Perhaps its the cheap design to simulate DRs???

I know horns can do much better but wow i would be spooked building something with that type of response....into lots of cft!
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post #66 of 188 Old 05-18-2019, 06:16 AM
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Yea, plus look at the area above 70hz, I think Danley even said that it needed to be cross at 70. The big thing with the DTS10 was its geometry, allowed a large, flat, high SPL sub to fit behind an AT screen. Now'days that's not really necessary.


Btw I don't think you can EQ that ringing away, it should always be there.
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post #67 of 188 Old 05-18-2019, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post
Leaving this here for those interested.

DTS10 and TH50
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post17396395


All other topic links about TH spawned by the DTS10 kit release.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post17615778

True cost wise now today could probably build a wall vs DTS10's. Once again I say the kits were bargain of the century on AVS.




20db down says approx 100x less loud at 10hz. . . sure doesn't sound and feel like it in my room.
100x less powerful is not perceived as 100x less loud. What you perceive in your room does not change what it is.
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post #68 of 188 Old 05-18-2019, 12:04 PM
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Well, in room has room gain to bring up the bottom. That is why my DTS-10s were flat to 8hz in my room, well after a peak at 10hz(my room gain). The DTS-10 is down 2 dB at 16hz from 20hz and 12 dB down at 12hz from 16hz. That is the nature of a tune whether port or horn. After tune it usually drops off 24 dB per octave where sealed drops off at 12 dB per octave.

I am not saying horns are bad at all, I love them, BUT, I prefer mulitples sealed drivers or LLTs. NotNyt has big LLTs with awesome power and drivers. His subs would be about 6 dB more powerful than a GH below 30hz and 6 dB less above 30hz, roughly. He has 4 of them. In his big room there really is no room for improvement except for just as many 24s in even bigger cabs but probably would not fit.

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post #69 of 188 Old 05-18-2019, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
This is painfully wrong. If something measures well, it will sound good. If it doesn't, you're not looking at the right measurements or you're misinterpreting them.
I pointed out, or via parenthesis hinted at that subs would apply more easily to your claim than main speakers, but if you fail to differentiate here - i.e.: that a main speaker that measures well doesn't necessarily sound good, or that given similar measurements they don't necessarily sound similarly (which would apply to subs as well) - then that tells me the vital part in the "equation" of assessing sound, namely with the ears, is ignored by you. If you can't acknowledge the importance of perceived impressions with main speakers by ear, how would you know with subs?

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Also, the DTS-10 is ~25db less capable at 10hz than it is at 20hz.
I'm sure you'd know, but your finding is inconsequential to me. What matters is the low tuning frequency of the DTS-10 (around 13Hz?), and that it moves resonances further into the band that has audible significance - hence my want to include a more representational range of horn subs with higher tuning frequencies, ULF be damned (but with a cleaner upper band).
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post #70 of 188 Old 05-18-2019, 03:41 PM
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When I opened this thread I did not expect it to be about subwoofers, of all things!

"Horn" as applied to bass subsystems is just a marketing term for bandpass alignments. The "front loaded horn" is a 4th order bandpass box, and the "tapped horn" is a 6th order bandpass box. True, nuances in port design can lead to some resonances that would not be found in a "classic" bandpass tuning, which can lead to people with high standards disfavoring that solution. There's no difference in "acoustic coupling," directivity control, etc. from such boxes used in acoustically small rooms. (A line of them in an auditorium or stadium - maybe.)

Moreover, a system with a large competently equalized 4th/6th order bandpass subwoofer as its foundation will always be inferior to a competently equalized system taking the same gross cabinet volume and splitting into 3-4 simple boxes distributed around the room. The same goes for I-B, FWIW. If you're after bass quality rather than bass quantity then the answer is not a huge sub of any configuration. It's a few subs!
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post #71 of 188 Old 05-18-2019, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rezag View Post
I pointed out, or via parenthesis hinted at that subs would apply more easily to your claim than main speakers, but if you fail to differentiate here - i.e.: that a main speaker that measures well doesn't necessarily sound good, or that given similar measurements they don't necessarily sound similarly (which would apply to subs as well) - then that tells me the vital part in the "equation" of assessing sound, namely with the ears, is ignored by you. If you can't acknowledge the importance of perceived impressions with main speakers by ear, how would you know with subs?
The research by Toole, Olive, Harman, etc say otherwise. If something measures well, it will sound good. There's no mystery here. If something does not sound good, there's a measurement that will indicate why.

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I'm sure you'd know, but your finding is inconsequential to me. What matters is the low tuning frequency of the DTS-10 (around 13Hz?), and that it moves resonances further into the band that has audible significance - hence my want to include a more representational range of horn subs with higher tuning frequencies, ULF be damned (but with a cleaner upper band).
That's great, but for others reading the thread, I'm providing some science to counter the rabid fanboyism. The DTS-10 is not tuned to around 13hz. It's impedance minimum is closer to 16-17hz and it's already down about 5db at that point.

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post #72 of 188 Old 05-19-2019, 02:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
When I opened this thread I did not expect it to be about subwoofers, of all things!

"Horn" as applied to bass subsystems is just a marketing term for bandpass alignments. The "front loaded horn" is a 4th order bandpass box, and the "tapped horn" is a 6th order bandpass box. True, nuances in port design can lead to some resonances that would not be found in a "classic" bandpass tuning, which can lead to people with high standards disfavoring that solution. There's no difference in "acoustic coupling," directivity control, etc. from such boxes used in acoustically small rooms. (A line of them in an auditorium or stadium - maybe.)
"Horns" as a term has been around for so long that it precedes marketing considerations and if anything would be more of a simplified abbreviation, but thanks for making aware the technically differentiated bandpass alignments as they apply to FLH's and TH's. There's certainly difference in acoustic coupling between direct radiators and horn-loaded dittos, which is the main subject here, and which I believe has vital importance in regards to the actual perceived quality of bass. Going further though I'd also wager there're subtle differences in perceived performance between FLH's and TH's.

Quote:
Moreover, a system with a large competently equalized 4th/6th order bandpass subwoofer as its foundation will always be inferior to a competently equalized system taking the same gross cabinet volume and splitting into 3-4 simple boxes distributed around the room. The same goes for I-B, FWIW. If you're after bass quality rather than bass quantity then the answer is not a huge sub of any configuration. It's a few subs!
From my chair going dual subs would be a minimum requirement so to make way for a symmetrically placed setup (in relation to the mains), stereo-coupled with a XO no lower than ~80Hz, but it would be a sufficient one as well that can hold advantages to smaller (direct radiating?) spread-out subs that you advocate. Another solution would be upholding the two symmetrically placed subs (horns in some iteration) with named XO, and have one or two more placed elsewhere crossed lower. I get what you're saying about multiple subs having obvious advantages when it comes to evenness of coverage without EQ.

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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
The research by Toole, Olive, Harman, etc say otherwise. If something measures well, it will sound good. There's no mystery here. If something does not sound good, there's a measurement that will indicate why.
Where subs go, if they measure well - irrespective of their topology - I'd wager they sound well, yes. My contention with this approach is that doesn't take into consideration (i.e.: can't measure) differences in perceived performance as it applies to direct radiators vs. horns. You think this is hogwash, I don't. Don't get me wrong; your technical proficiency in this field no doubt exceeds mine by a mile, and I'm quite sure your setup sounds awesome because of your knowledge and reliance on science and measurements. I just find horn subs sound so good that I'd gladly be without <15-20Hz extension for what they offer above.

Quote:
That's great, but for others reading the thread, I'm providing some science to counter the rabid fanboyism. The DTS-10 is not tuned to around 13hz. It's impedance minimum is closer to 16-17hz and it's already down about 5db at that point.

I'm sure your scientific approach is appreciated by many here, but hey, relying on one's ears doesn't equate into being a "fanboy" (and moreover the two, being a man of science as well as relying on your ears, aren't mutually exclusive) For the record I didn't state the tuning frequency of the DTS-10 was 13Hz; I questioned whether it was. You corrected me, fine, but it changes nothing. The DTS-10 is your prime example of a tapped horn sub with a resonance in its band that has sonic implications, but it comes as one of the lowest tuned horn subs out there, a tapped horn no less, while there would be other horn subs more representational, like the TH-50, with a cleaner upper band and, dare I say it, better overall performance. There's a lot of bass above 20Hz, folks..

Last edited by rezag; 05-19-2019 at 06:14 AM.
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post #73 of 188 Old 05-19-2019, 06:40 AM
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You keep saying you like the sound of horn subs better, but compared to what? In your room side by side and setup correctly? If you put subs behind a screen and did not know which was playing, both could pplay 120 dB with little distortion and both high passed at 20hz, it would be very difficult to tell which is which unless something was wrong with the design(cabinet, driver, etc.) If you are comparing a small sealed sub to a very large horn the increased in dynamics and spl wins everytime. If you want to compare the alignments then everything needs to be the same except the alignment.
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post #74 of 188 Old 05-19-2019, 07:06 AM
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Sound quality of subwoofers is kind of a silly topic in the sense that very, very few people here or elsewhere have ever truly tested it properly.

If you want to test subwoofer sound quality, set your desired lowpass (80hz?), put the two subs next to each other, level match them, and unplug all your other speakers. If you try to do the test with speakers on, things you think might be attributed to the subs generally are not. Just test strictly the subs and you may very well be surprised what you hear. Subwoofers are not “musical”, they have no “airiness”, and you won’t hear more “detail” from one vs another.

You will hear blurps and thumps, and from them what is typically discernable by ear is that one will have a lower sounding tone than the other, one will sound more dead than the other, and one will pressurize the room more easily. If one sub does all three of those things, it is the more accurate subwoofer.

I would love to read someone elses sub vs sub ONLY listening impressions. Ive done it and it is not very fun, not like comparing speakers, and what you are hearing by the sub itself is not engaging or musical, so its laborous to do it very long.
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post #75 of 188 Old 05-19-2019, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
You keep saying you like the sound of horn subs better, but compared to what? In your room side by side and setup correctly? If you put subs behind a screen and did not know which was playing, both could pplay 120 dB with little distortion and both high passed at 20hz, it would be very difficult to tell which is which unless something was wrong with the design(cabinet, driver, etc.) If you are comparing a small sealed sub to a very large horn the increased in dynamics and spl wins everytime. If you want to compare the alignments then everything needs to be the same except the alignment.
Comparisons were made in my own home setup (see pics) and at friends as well via different setups (not the MW's, but other horn subs (FLH's)). I have 2 MicroWreckers which are now settled along the sidewalls, but to begin with I tested a single MW placed at the same spot my previous SVS SB16-Ultra had resided to make initial and further tests. The differences were obvious, even with the MW very loosely calibrated and implemented, and several friends of mine, all of them very invested in sound reproduction (some even professionally), had similar impressions and drew the same conclusions. Amps were different in my setup comparison because the SVS had build-in amp, but that hardly has significant say here.

If I remember correctly you made some interesting and worthwhile observations between your then DTS-10's and direct radiating subs solution (multiple 18"?). Would you invalidate those impressions for the stated reasons of yours above?
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post #76 of 188 Old 05-19-2019, 07:51 AM
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Low frequency requires a distributed bass solution unless only one person sits in one spot and never moves. I think that is mostly hard to argue.

Different sounding subs show the flaws in their design and in room application.

I do not believe 50hz sounds different, no matter the source, when the room is removed and all distortion and resonances are removed.

If also true, it implies to me that all bass is the same, it is simply how imperfectly it is reproduced that colors it. Same for all frequencies.

And music fans, working from no calibrated reference point, imo learn to love particular SETUPS as sounding superior for music because that setup accounts for the recordings typical bias and their choice of speakers and treatment goes to their preferences.

Theater centric folks obsess about flat response, ability to customize the curve to tastes and how much pressure and feel they want and like. Many like me focus on theaters as reference and work to reach that goal or beyond at home.

As a HT guy, i prize consistent, flat response across seats and ability to feel the low end as i do in a theater as an unshakable goal.

I view sound quality as a function of the room and setup. I see capability mattering because at 110db some speakers cant do the job. Tweeter design impacts my seat to seat variation.

I also believe many music fans have far superior critical listening skills than me....a point rezag makes.

I dont consider my style superior. But i believe my fundamental take that rooms and reference define my experience is a much more precise and usable quest i.e. measurable goals like mk does, vs excellent critical listening skills.

How can i say authoritatively what sounds better? I can show what measures better.

Steve C heroically went into the breach and showed no matter what he says everybody still doesnt come close to agreeing.
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post #77 of 188 Old 05-19-2019, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Sound quality of subwoofers is kind of a silly topic in the sense that very, very few people here or elsewhere have ever truly tested it properly.

If you want to test subwoofer sound quality, set your desired lowpass (80hz?), put the two subs next to each other, level match them, and unplug all your other speakers. If you try to do the test with speakers on, things you think might be attributed to the subs generally are not. Just test strictly the subs and you may very well be surprised what you hear. Subwoofers are not “musical”, they have no “airiness”, and you won’t hear more “detail” from one vs another.

You will hear blurps and thumps, and from them what is typically discernable by ear is that one will have a lower sounding tone than the other, one will sound more dead than the other, and one will pressurize the room more easily. If one sub does all three of those things, it is the more accurate subwoofer.

I would love to read someone elses sub vs sub ONLY listening impressions. Ive done it and it is not very fun, not like comparing speakers, and what you are hearing by the sub itself is not engaging or musical, so its laborous to do it very long.
Under normal circumstances do you ever listen to your sub(s), while listening to music or watching films, without the mains? A rhetorical question, obviously, and meant to point out that I find there's no good reason to test as you propose - i.e.: sans mains. You would know how a sub or subs can add or substract musicality and even airiness or solidity to the overall presentation depending on the specific implementation of differences subs in conjunction with the mains.

Bass is not just bass, obviously, and not only for reasons of implementation and specs; from all I can assess topology matters, certainly with regard to direct radiating vs. horn-loaded. Not least: integration with the mains is vital, and affects how the lower frequencies are perceived, and vice versa. I guess that goes without saying.
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post #78 of 188 Old 05-19-2019, 08:38 AM
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My point stands, the speakers will deliver cues most listeners THINK come from the subs. When i compare speakers for sound quality, i dont use subwoofers, and if i were inclined to test new subs for sound quality, yes, i would unplug the speakers.

Integration with the mains is not a feature of the subwoofer sound quality, its a room, phase, and distance setting function.
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post #79 of 188 Old 05-19-2019, 09:16 AM
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I just find horn subs sound so good that I'd gladly be without <15-20Hz extension for what they offer above.
I'm the opposite, loved the deeper pressure frequencies so much in my most recent DIY, I immediately extended its port to take it from a 16Hz tune, to 14Hz. I'm all for higher output and better sound quality ofc, but no way am I sacrificing content under 20Hz, unless there was a problem... that I could hear with my ears!

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post #80 of 188 Old 05-19-2019, 10:19 AM
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The DTS-10 at that time had better extension than my cheaper 18s. Once I tried more robust 18s it swayed the other way.

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post #81 of 188 Old 05-19-2019, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rezag View Post
Where subs go, if they measure well - irrespective of their topology - I'd wager they sound well, yes. My contention with this approach is that doesn't take into consideration (i.e.: can't measure) differences in perceived performance as it applies to direct radiators vs. horns. You think this is hogwash, I don't. Don't get me wrong; your technical proficiency in this field no doubt exceeds mine by a mile, and I'm quite sure your setup sounds awesome because of your knowledge and reliance on science and measurements. I just find horn subs sound so good that I'd gladly be without <15-20Hz extension for what they offer above.
This is my point. You assume it can't be measured because you don't know what to measure or look at.

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I'm sure your scientific approach is appreciated by many here, but hey, relying on one's ears doesn't equate into being a "fanboy" (and moreover the two, being a man of science as well as relying on your ears, aren't mutually exclusive) For the record I didn't state the tuning frequency of the DTS-10 was 13Hz; I questioned whether it was. You corrected me, fine, but it changes nothing. The DTS-10 is your prime example of a tapped horn sub with a resonance in its band that has sonic implications, but it comes as one of the lowest tuned horn subs out there, a tapped horn no less, while there would be other horn subs more representational, like the TH-50, with a cleaner upper band and, dare I say it, better overall performance. There's a lot of bass above 20Hz, folks..
Perhaps you like the added spectra of a horns resonances? Perhaps you like the additional output over an inadequate direct radiator system? Either way, these things and others are measurable.

And yes, there are horns that do better and reduce these issues, but imo, they do not dig low enough and as such are a compromise. After I move, depending on space, I may build something similar to the sk-horn for the lms ultras to increase the upper end efficiency while still having a massive enclosure for the low end.
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post #82 of 188 Old 05-19-2019, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by rezag View Post
Comparisons were made in my own home setup (see pics) and at friends as well via different setups (not the MW's, but other horn subs (FLH's)). I have 2 MicroWreckers which are now settled along the sidewalls, but to begin with I tested a single MW placed at the same spot my previous SVS SB16-Ultra had resided to make initial and further tests. The differences were obvious, even with the MW very loosely calibrated and implemented, and several friends of mine, all of them very invested in sound reproduction (some even professionally), had similar impressions and drew the same conclusions. Amps were different in my setup comparison because the SVS had build-in amp, but that hardly has significant say here.

If I remember correctly you made some interesting and worthwhile observations between your then DTS-10's and direct radiating subs solution (multiple 18"?). Would you invalidate those impressions for the stated reasons of yours above?
So you compared a woefully inadequate sealed sub to a horn and found the horn sounded better. That's a shocker.
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post #83 of 188 Old 05-19-2019, 12:12 PM
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After I move, depending on space, I may build something similar to the sk-horn for the lms ultras to increase the upper end efficiency while still having a massive enclosure for the low end.


Hurry up and move so we can see this!


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post #84 of 188 Old 05-19-2019, 12:14 PM
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Hurry up and move so we can see this!


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Lol, it's gonna be a while. Basically take what I have now, shift the woofers to one side of the enclosure and make a small horn for the front section
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post #85 of 188 Old 05-19-2019, 03:37 PM
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Here's a DTS-10 for example. You can see the ringing at 55hz. Huge resonance.

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Originally Posted by Trimlock View Post
Btw I don't think you can EQ that ringing away, it should always be there.

You most certainly can, and I only recollect of one or two DTS-10 owners who haven't done so (they didn't use EQ).

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post #86 of 188 Old 05-19-2019, 08:40 PM
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Perhaps you like the added spectra of a horns resonances? Perhaps you like the additional output over an inadequate direct radiator system? Either way, these things and others are measurable.

And yes, there are horns that do better and reduce these issues, but imo, they do not dig low enough and as such are a compromise. After I move, depending on space, I may build something similar to the sk-horn for the lms ultras to increase the upper end efficiency while still having a massive enclosure for the low end.
Yup, those pesky mid-bass resonance peaks develop from in-part from extending the low-end output much lower than roughly ¾*Fs (mainly due to the excessively long horn length). I've also noticed that drivers that have high Qes have trouble obtaining a flatter response. Ideal Qes values (IMO) are <0.25. Stuffing helps as well, as does the fact that Q losses and stuffing viscosity have to be taken into account.

Just today I was refining a model for a horn loaded bass-midbass setup. Two Cerwin Vega Stroker 12's handing off to a single 18 Sound 10NDA610 midbass at ~130Hz.

18 Sound 10NDA610 in a FLH. Notice the absence of peaky resonance ripples.



18 Sound 10NDA610 together with two Cerwin-Vega Stroker 12's in a TH with 2.83V input, 2π space. F3 in the mid-high 30's, as this design if I ever build it would be for music, heavy metal namely, which has very little content <30Hz.

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post #87 of 188 Old 05-20-2019, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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My point stands, the speakers will deliver cues most listeners THINK come from the subs. When i compare speakers for sound quality, i dont use subwoofers, and if i were inclined to test new subs for sound quality, yes, i would unplug the speakers.

Integration with the mains is not a feature of the subwoofer sound quality, its a room, phase, and distance setting function.
Fair enough, although we'll have to agree to disagree.

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I'm the opposite, loved the deeper pressure frequencies so much in my most recent DIY, I immediately extended its port to take it from a 16Hz tune, to 14Hz. I'm all for higher output and better sound quality ofc, but no way am I sacrificing content under 20Hz, unless there was a problem... that I could hear with my ears!

My main concern is integration, and I find this to have been most successfully accomplished with a "horns for horns"-approach - that is, augmenting my all-horn mains with a pair of tapped horn subs. For this to come true, with a low-pass no lower than 80Hz, a low corner of 20-25Hz was all there was to be had, though I find what's effectively honest 20Hz is quite sufficient, even watching movies. I'm certainly very pleased, indeed highly impressed by this pairing.

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The DTS-10 at that time had better extension than my cheaper 18s. Once I tried more robust 18s it swayed the other way.
How would you describe the difference in perceived bass between your über-18's solution and the dual DTS-10's?

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This is my point. You assume it can't be measured because you don't know what to measure or look at.
Don't invert this; it seems you can't tell the difference if it stared you sonically in the face (so to speak), or just wouldn't care to do so, instead relying on a measurement approach you believe to be exhaustive. Reductive, is the word?

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Perhaps you like the added spectra of a horns resonances? Perhaps you like the additional output over an inadequate direct radiator system? Either way, these things and others are measurable.
Speaking of assumptions, and coming from the person who has so far only horn-referenced to the DTS-10. The MicroWreckers trump (poor choice of word, sorry) the SVS "by a mile" in every aspect, except extension, but perhaps that isn't saying much as far as you are concerned (i.e.: your comment below). I've not really gone much louder than the SVS with the MW's (hint: neighbors) - ok, not quite true - but they're far more effortless, room-filling and impactful, all of which I gather can be explained from the larger effective air radiation area, higher sensitivity, and that they're two, not one.

There is though a significant departure in a sense in their presentation - which is something I've never found to be replicated with large, direct radiating subs - a particular and rather distinct horn-imprinting that I've heard through other setups as well, and it deals how horns are able to vibrate air that direct radiators simply don't. In simplified terms: horns have this floating, liquid/smooth and layered feel of bass, whereas DR's feel slightly more solidified, ponderous and floor-bound in their presentation. Anyone who can relate to this description?

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And yes, there are horns that do better and reduce these issues, but imo, they do not dig low enough and as such are a compromise. After I move, depending on space, I may build something similar to the sk-horn for the lms ultras to increase the upper end efficiency while still having a massive enclosure for the low end.
Extension is the compromise with horns, yes. SKhorns I gather are awesome, and I take it they would make for a very interesting 2-way sub pairing as you propose. They (i.e.: the split-up Skrams) were runners-up with the Othorns for my setup, but the Othorns roll off a bit too early for watching films, I find, while the Skrams would be a closer match for my needs (with a blocked port). Perhaps sometime in the future..

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So you compared a woefully inadequate sealed sub to a horn and found the horn sounded better. That's a shocker.
Woefully inadequate in the sense that they are certainly SPL-limited by comparison, yes, and indeed they don't come close to the MW's in other regards as well (except, again, extension-wise). Other than that please enlighten me in regards to the SB16's shortcomings?

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You most certainly can, and I only recollect of one or two DTS-10 owners who haven't done so (they didn't use EQ).
Nice seeing someone feeling differently about this..

Last edited by rezag; 05-20-2019 at 05:26 PM.
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post #88 of 188 Old 05-20-2019, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by rezag View Post

Don't invert this; it seems you can't tell the difference if it stared you sonically in the face (so to speak), or just wouldn't care to do so, instead relying on a measurement approach you believe to be exhaustive. Reductive, is the word?
Who said I can't tell the difference audibly? Now you're making things up. You're the one who claimed you can't measure the differences. I stated that's incorrect, you just don't know what to look at or how to interpret correctly.


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Speaking of assumptions, and coming from the person who has so far only horn-referenced to the DTS-10. The MicroWreckers trump (poor choice of word, sorry) the SVS "by a mile" in every aspect, except extension, but perhaps that isn't saying much as far as you are concerned (i.e.: your comment below). I've not really gone much louder than the SVS with the MW's (hint: neighbors) - ok, not quite true - but they're far more effortless, room-filling and impactful, all of which I gather can be explained from the larger effective air radiation area, higher sensitivity, and that they're two, not one.
Assumptions? I was hypothesizing. Hence using "perhaps".

I've built half a dozen or so horns and ran some in my theater previously. What do you expect comparing the MW to a small sealed sub? you're comparing completely opposite ends of the spectrum. Of course the MW is going to be better. It doesn't take much to outdo an svs sub.

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There is though a significant departure in a sense in their presentation - which is something I've never found to be replicated with large, direct radiating subs - a particular and rather distinct horn-imprinting that I've heard through other setups as well, and it deals how horns are able to vibrate air that direct radiators simply don't. In simplified terms: horns have this floating, liquid/smooth and layered feel of bass, whereas DR's feel slightly more solidified, ponderous and floor-bound in their presentation. Anyone who can relate to this description?
Wow, hitting that audiophool koolaid a little too hard. Somehow horns give you magic floating liquid smooth layered vibrations now and direct radiators can't vibrate air. Nice. Gotta get me some of that.


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Woefully inadequate in the sense that they are certainly SPL-limited by comparison, yes, and indeed they don't come close to the MW's in other regards as well (except, again, extension-wise). Other than that please enlighten me in regards to the SB16's shortcomings?
The SVS is a small, inefficient, and quite non linear sub. There's absolutely nothing remarkable about it.

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Nice seeing someone feeling differently about this..
Just because you EQ down the resonance, does not mean they aren't there. Any harmonics that land on a resonance will be amplified and it may still ring some in the time domain.
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Last edited by notnyt; 05-20-2019 at 06:00 PM.
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post #89 of 188 Old 05-20-2019, 06:04 PM
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Don't invert this; it seems you can't tell the difference if it stared you sonically in the face (so to speak), or just wouldn't care to do so, instead relying on a measurement approach you believe to be exhaustive. Reductive, is the word?
I see no grounds for such a claim. It isn't that he has said there are no audible differences, just that the differences are measurable and explainable.

On that subject, yes, the literature fully supports the notion that the quality of a speaker can be predicted by its measured performance. You just have to know what to measure. We aren't talking a simple frequency response. More like power and polar response, distortion spectra, power compression, etc.
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post #90 of 188 Old 05-20-2019, 08:15 PM
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All he has to do is run compression sweeps and see the MW is probably not compressing as early. It is also more efficient so he can run less power to be flat with his mains. You compared a cost effective DIY horn in a giant box with an overpriced commercial offering in a small sealed box. You did not compare apples to apples. Build a DIY sealed array that is the same sensitivity with the same output and then high pass it at 20hz and watch how magically a sealed alignment has little distortion and plays effortless with your mains.

I have tried many different alignments, including lilmike cinema F20s. I liked my two DTS-10s better than my 4 F20s.
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