Originally Posted by SteveCallas
My point stands, the speakers will deliver cues most listeners THINK come from the subs. When i compare speakers for sound quality, i dont use subwoofers, and if i were inclined to test new subs for sound quality, yes, i would unplug the speakers.
Integration with the mains is not a feature of the subwoofer sound quality, its a room, phase, and distance setting function.
Fair enough, although we'll have to agree to disagree.
Originally Posted by Leon!
I'm the opposite, loved the deeper pressure frequencies so much in my most recent DIY, I immediately extended its port to take it from a 16Hz tune, to 14Hz. I'm all for higher output and better sound quality ofc, but no way am I sacrificing content under 20Hz, unless there was a problem... that I could hear with my ears!
My main concern is integration, and I find this to have been most successfully accomplished with a "horns for horns"-approach - that is, augmenting my all-horn mains with a pair of tapped horn subs. For this to come true, with a low-pass no lower than 80Hz, a low corner of 20-25Hz was all there was to be had, though I find what's effectively honest 20Hz is quite sufficient, even watching movies. I'm certainly very pleased, indeed highly impressed by this pairing.
Originally Posted by MKtheater
The DTS-10 at that time had better extension than my cheaper 18s. Once I tried more robust 18s it swayed the other way.
How would you describe the difference in perceived bass between your über-18's solution and the dual DTS-10's?
Originally Posted by notnyt
This is my point. You assume it can't be measured because you don't know what to measure or look at.
Don't invert this; it seems you can't tell the difference if it stared you sonically in the face (so to speak), or just wouldn't care to do so, instead relying on a measurement approach you believe to be exhaustive. Reductive, is the word?
Perhaps you like the added spectra of a horns resonances? Perhaps you like the additional output over an inadequate direct radiator system? Either way, these things and others are measurable.
Speaking of assumptions, and coming from the person who has so far only horn-referenced to the DTS-10. The MicroWreckers trump (poor choice of word, sorry) the SVS "by a mile" in every aspect, except extension, but perhaps that isn't saying much as far as you are concerned (i.e.: your comment below). I've not really gone much louder than the SVS with the MW's (hint: neighbors) - ok, not quite true - but they're far more effortless, room-filling and impactful, all of which I gather can be explained from the larger effective air radiation area, higher sensitivity, and that they're two, not one.
There is though a significant departure in a sense in their presentation - which is something I've never found to be replicated with large, direct radiating subs - a particular and rather distinct horn-imprinting that I've heard through other setups as well, and it deals how horns are able to vibrate air that direct radiators simply don't. In simplified terms: horns have this floating, liquid/smooth and layered feel of bass, whereas DR's feel slightly more solidified, ponderous and floor-bound in their presentation. Anyone who can relate to this description?
And yes, there are horns that do better and reduce these issues, but imo, they do not dig low enough and as such are a compromise. After I move, depending on space, I may build something similar to the sk-horn for the lms ultras to increase the upper end efficiency while still having a massive enclosure for the low end.
Extension is the compromise with horns, yes. SKhorns I gather are awesome, and I take it they would make for a very interesting 2-way sub pairing as you propose. They (i.e.: the split-up Skrams) were runners-up with the Othorns for my setup, but the Othorns roll off a bit too early for watching films, I find, while the Skrams would be a closer match for my needs (with a blocked port). Perhaps sometime in the future..
Originally Posted by notnyt
So you compared a woefully inadequate sealed sub to a horn and found the horn sounded better. That's a shocker.
Woefully inadequate in the sense that they are certainly SPL-limited by comparison, yes, and indeed they don't come close to the MW's in other regards as well (except, again, extension-wise). Other than that please enlighten me in regards to the SB16's shortcomings?
Originally Posted by noah katz
You most certainly can, and I only recollect of one or two DTS-10 owners who haven't done so (they didn't use EQ).
Nice seeing someone feeling differently about this..