Horns vs. direct radiators, and their sonic differences - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 122Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 188 Old 05-10-2019, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rezag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Horns vs. direct radiators, and their sonic differences

Different ways to skin your cat, as they say, and that certainly applies with regard to bass reproduction and the topologies at play here. To simplify this subject a bit I'd like to concentrate talking about horn varieties (including tapped horns) on one side, and how they compare to direct radiators on the other side - be they ported, sealed, open baffle, whatever. It would be perfectly OK for people to differentiate their impressions of a particular variety within one group of topology comparing it to the other group, but overall keep it DR's vs. horns.

Myself I find the differences in presentation between bass horns and direct radiating varieties are rather significant, to such a degree even that it warrants turning it into a subject matter, but please differ with me if you so feel about it; it's not my intention to homogenize a potential discussion, but rather to pose a big question mark as to why speaking about impressions of reproduced bass often comes down to measurements, frequency span (i.e.: extension in particular) and loudness, as this in itself has a tendency to sonically alleviate any topology used.

It just so happens that I find bass horns to sound different, and ultimately better compared to any direct radiator solution I've heard. In a few words I find horn bass to be effortless, smooth, present/enveloping, refined, and rather airy/floating in nature, as if it excites the air very effectively. Following bass lines is extremely easy with horn bass, and it just seems inherently "musical" and integrated into the sonic whole.

Direct radiator bass by comparison sounds "pulsating," less omnipresent, often slightly over-hanged/smeared, and less integrated. Moreover it feels congested or earth-bound, in a sense, as if never lifting into the air and vibrating it - hereby making DR bass feel more solidified and compact.

To all of you who have actual experience with horn bass, how would you compare your perceived experience of it to direct radiator bass? Why did you end up choosing one over the other?
shivaji likes this.
rezag is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 188 Old 05-10-2019, 01:58 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
hd0823's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,908
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 678 Post(s)
Liked: 1250
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezag View Post
Different ways to skin your cat, as they say, and that certainly applies with regard to bass reproduction and the topologies at play here. To simplify this subject a bit I'd like to concentrate talking about horn varieties (including tapped horns) on one side, and how they compare to direct radiators on the other side - be they ported, sealed, open baffle, whatever. It would be perfectly OK for people to differentiate their impressions of a particular variety within one group of topology comparing it to the other group, but overall keep it DR's vs. horns.



Myself I find the differences in presentation between bass horns and direct radiating varieties are rather significant, to such a degree even that it warrants turning it into a subject matter, but please differ with me if you so feel about it; it's not my intention to homogenize a potential discussion, but rather to pose a big question mark as to why speaking about impressions of reproduced bass often comes down to measurements, frequency span (i.e.: extension in particular) and loudness, as this in itself has a tendency to sonically alleviate any topology used.



It just so happens that I find bass horns to sound different, and ultimately better compared to any direct radiator solution I've heard. In a few words I find horn bass to be effortless, smooth, present/enveloping, refined, and rather airy/floating in nature, as if it excites the air very effectively. Following bass lines is extremely easy with horn bass, and it just seems inherently "musical" and integrated into the sonic whole.



Direct radiator bass by comparison sounds "pulsating," less omnipresent, often slightly over-hanged/smeared, and less integrated. Moreover it feels congested or earth-bound, in a sense, as if never lifting into the air and vibrating it - hereby making DR bass feel more solidified and compact.



To all of you who have actual experience with horn bass, how would you compare your perceived experience of it to direct radiator bass? Why did you end up choosing one over the other?
I like both but definitely prefer horns hence having 4 submaximus v3s in my room. I always tell people that haven't heard them is that they sound diffrent and hard to explain without experiencing them. You pretty much summed up my feelings with your description of there sound signature

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
shivaji, rezag, asarose247 and 1 others like this.
hd0823 is online now  
post #3 of 188 Old 05-10-2019, 04:14 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 22,562
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1755 Post(s)
Liked: 617
A search should yield a wealth of info on this topic.

A good part of it may be missed here, as some people aren't fond of repeating themselves.
notnyt and Trimlock like this.

Noah
noah katz is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 188 Old 05-10-2019, 09:49 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
BassThatHz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Northern Okan range (NW Cascades region)
Posts: 10,587
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3654 Post(s)
Liked: 4136
I think a large part of it is in what the box does with the first 0 to 10 watts. That pretty much sets the tone of everything to follow.

Horns are good at minimizing excursion and maximizing the translation of watts into db's, the THING we ACTUALLY care about!

The only real problem with horns is that they tend to have a very limited bandwidth with aggressive rolloffs and often have an unwelcoming top end where it succumbs to resonances.

They are surely one of the loudest and most-dynamic, but perhaps not always the most musical.
Horns also tend to be too big for most residential applications, and their difficulty-level in design and assembly is equally high, to the point of making most people turn and run away.

Ported is the middle ground. The "goldilocks" of easy and efficiency, the wife-material of the commoner's subwoofer realm.
Sealed and IB are red-headed step-child and the black-swan, i.e. haters-maximus.
Horns are the diamond queen of hearts...
Now OFF with his head!
shivaji and hd0823 like this.
BassThatHz is offline  
post #5 of 188 Old 05-11-2019, 07:32 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 740
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Liked: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I think a large part of it is in what the box does with the first 0 to 10 watts. That pretty much sets the tone of everything to follow.

Horns are good at minimizing excursion and maximizing the translation of watts into db's, the THING we ACTUALLY care about!

The only real problem with horns is that they tend to have a very limited bandwidth with aggressive rolloffs and often have an unwelcoming top end where it succumbs to resonances.

They are surely one of the loudest and most-dynamic, but perhaps not always the most musical.
Horns also tend to be too big for most residential applications, and their difficulty-level in design and assembly is equally high, to the point of making most people turn and run away.

Ported is the middle ground. The "goldilocks" of easy and efficiency, the wife-material of the commoner's subwoofer realm.
Sealed and IB are red-headed step-child and the black-swan, i.e. haters-maximus.
Horns are the diamond queen of hearts...
Now OFF with his head!
Damn BTH im always impressed but your naked honesty here is great.

My experience is a well built horn sounds amazing up to about an 80hz crossover. My best guess is when a horn is constructed precisely, and played well under the limits of the driver, its a situation of basically zero distortion and almost perfect reproduction.

Musically i can understand the love. Especially quieter music.

I havent built a horn and dont own any. I love direct radiators because they offer many fun options and all are smaller than a horn. Then as a theater guy i cant fathom the idea of building a gigantic box that cant comfortably play down below 20hz without help...corner loading, eq or special designs can help...but a 20cft ported box with a beefy driver will make me happier with a DR.

Quality wise i do believe integration of multiple subs overrules what the differences between the types are..integration is too complicated to judge easily.

As one sub though it would be very hard to beat the sound of a horn playing in a typical musical range. But then the DR isnt that far off, especially in sealed boxes. The sound clarity is not enough for me to sacrifice the space for a band limited option.
Heide264 likes this.
RoboAVS is offline  
post #6 of 188 Old 05-11-2019, 08:43 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
hd0823's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,908
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 678 Post(s)
Liked: 1250
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
Damn BTH im always impressed but your naked honesty here is great.



My experience is a well built horn sounds amazing up to about an 80hz crossover. My best guess is when a horn is constructed precisely, and played well under the limits of the driver, its a situation of basically zero distortion and almost perfect reproduction.



Musically i can understand the love. Especially quieter music.



I havent built a horn and dont own any. I love direct radiators because they offer many fun options and all are smaller than a horn. Then as a theater guy i cant fathom the idea of building a gigantic box that cant comfortably play down below 20hz without help...corner loading, eq or special designs can help...but a 20cft ported box with a beefy driver will make me happier with a DR.



Quality wise i do believe integration of multiple subs overrules what the differences between the types are..integration is too complicated to judge easily.



As one sub though it would be very hard to beat the sound of a horn playing in a typical musical range. But then the DR isnt that far off, especially in sealed boxes. The sound clarity is not enough for me to sacrifice the space for a band limited option.
You can get below 20hz with a horn . They just have to be the size of a refrigerator lol

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
hd0823 is online now  
post #7 of 188 Old 05-11-2019, 09:05 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Maple Grove MN
Posts: 355
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 171 Post(s)
Liked: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd0823 View Post
You can get below 20hz with a horn . They just have to be the size of a refrigerator lol

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Or maybe 4 of them the size of refrigerators.
Randy_J is online now  
post #8 of 188 Old 05-11-2019, 09:40 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
hd0823's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,908
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 678 Post(s)
Liked: 1250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy_J View Post
Or maybe 4 of them the size of refrigerators.
Lol quantity is always a plus

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
hd0823 is online now  
post #9 of 188 Old 05-11-2019, 08:38 PM
Advanced Member
 
SpinMonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 940
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 485 Post(s)
Liked: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Now OFF with his head!
Your posts are pretty violent tonight.
I like it
SpinMonster is offline  
post #10 of 188 Old 05-11-2019, 11:50 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,056
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 390 Post(s)
Liked: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
Your posts are pretty violent tonight.
I like it
He must have changed his meds.
hd0823 likes this.
Trimlock is online now  
post #11 of 188 Old 05-12-2019, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rezag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd0823 View Post
I like both but definitely prefer horns hence having 4 submaximus v3s in my room. I always tell people that haven't heard them is that they sound diffrent and hard to explain without experiencing them. You pretty much summed up my feelings with your description of there sound signature

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Thanks, and yes - explaining perceived impressions of bass is not without challenge, but through actual listening it's rather obvious the differences at play between horns and DR's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
A search should yield a wealth of info on this topic.

A good part of it may be missed here, as some people aren't fond of repeating themselves.
I've searched quite a bit on this subject, both here and elsewhere, and honestly any elaborate takes trying to come about what I'm inquiring with my original post are rare, and very few really care to draw up comparisons here - elaborately, that is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I think a large part of it is in what the box does with the first 0 to 10 watts. That pretty much sets the tone of everything to follow.

Horns are good at minimizing excursion and maximizing the translation of watts into db's, the THING we ACTUALLY care about!

The only real problem with horns is that they tend to have a very limited bandwidth with aggressive rolloffs and often have an unwelcoming top end where it succumbs to resonances.

They are surely one of the loudest and most-dynamic, but perhaps not always the most musical.
Horns also tend to be too big for most residential applications, and their difficulty-level in design and assembly is equally high, to the point of making most people turn and run away.

Ported is the middle ground. The "goldilocks" of easy and efficiency, the wife-material of the commoner's subwoofer realm.
Sealed and IB are red-headed step-child and the black-swan, i.e. haters-maximus.
Horns are the diamond queen of hearts...
Now OFF with his head!
Indeed, horns (certainly tapped horns) have limited bandwidth with upper band response that may require some EQ'ing, depending on how close to these issues the XO is chosen and not to mention slope type and the nature of the specific design and drivers used. Moreover they're big; 20Hz extension must translate into some 20 cubic feet of horn volume, unacceptable I presume to the cinephiles for whom 10-15Hz clean extension is mandatory, not to mention that the sheer size is a show stopper to most others.

The overall traits of bass horns to my ears makes them inherently more musical than direct radiator solutions, but of course I wouldn't rule out exceptions to the contrary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
Damn BTH im always impressed but your naked honesty here is great.

My experience is a well built horn sounds amazing up to about an 80hz crossover. My best guess is when a horn is constructed precisely, and played well under the limits of the driver, its a situation of basically zero distortion and almost perfect reproduction.

Musically i can understand the love. Especially quieter music.

I havent built a horn and dont own any. I love direct radiators because they offer many fun options and all are smaller than a horn. Then as a theater guy i cant fathom the idea of building a gigantic box that cant comfortably play down below 20hz without help...corner loading, eq or special designs can help...but a 20cft ported box with a beefy driver will make me happier with a DR.

Quality wise i do believe integration of multiple subs overrules what the differences between the types are..integration is too complicated to judge easily.

As one sub though it would be very hard to beat the sound of a horn playing in a typical musical range. But then the DR isnt that far off, especially in sealed boxes. The sound clarity is not enough for me to sacrifice the space for a band limited option.
I use my setup for both music playback and Home Theater (2.2 channel only), and with my former sub - the SVS SB16-Ultra - I was given a taste of what reproduction below 20Hz means when watching certain Blu-ray/UHD films. The in-room response of the SB16 I gather hits 15Hz quite easily, whereas my current pair of Tapped Horns, each fitted with a 15" and taking up 20 cubic feet per horn (crossed at 80Hz), roll off steeply below 20Hz (not least dictated by the high-pass filter I apply at 20Hz).

While it's audible that my new TH's don't extend as deeply as the SB16 it's what happens from 20Hz on up that's most important to me (not that I wouldn't cherish 10Hz flat from a pair of tapped horns..!), and here the TH's are very different animals by comparison. It's what happens when the sonic scenario becomes really complex and energetic that's interesting, and here the TH's simply open up a sound spectacle that's more coherent, effortless, layered and dynamic - like a wide, immensely informative sonic panorama that effortlessly washes over you (putting a grin on my face). Playing Mad Max Fury Road on Blu-ray really gives you an idea here, not least the latter portion of the film. However the traits of tapped horns are also obvious with more quiet, subtle effects.

A friend of mine uses 2 EV cinema subs in his home setup, each fitted with 2 x 18" woofers (direct radiating, ported), and they sport more ponderous heft and weight while lacking the nimble attack, midbass energy, airiness and effortless omnipresence of my tapped horns. The EV's doesn't feel strained as such, and yet they don't sound as effortless. They mayn't be representative of a majority of direct radiator solutions out there, but fundamentally they to my experience.

So, why build or have build 20 cubic feet tapped horns that "only" extends to 20Hz and are upper band limited to ~100-110Hz, when wider bandwidth alternatives can be had in a smaller, direct radiating package? Because the former sounds so damn good in the frequency band it is able to handle, and not least because my main speakers are all-horns; going horns all the way to my ears is vastly superior to a hybrid combo.
rezag is offline  
post #12 of 188 Old 05-12-2019, 04:16 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Bigus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The South
Posts: 5,526
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 577 Post(s)
Liked: 535
All approaches have their negatives, and any chosen path is a compromise that best fits some combination of need, taste, skill, budget, space...
Bigus is offline  
post #13 of 188 Old 05-12-2019, 05:33 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 740
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Liked: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezag View Post
Thanks, and yes - explaining perceived impressions of bass is not without challenge, but through actual listening it's rather obvious the differences at play between horns and DR's.



I've searched quite a bit on this subject, both here and elsewhere, and honestly any elaborate takes trying to come about what I'm inquiring with my original post are rare, and very few really care to draw up comparisons here - elaborately, that is.



Indeed, horns (certainly tapped horns) have limited bandwidth with upper band response that may require some EQ'ing, depending on how close to these issues the XO is chosen and not to mention slope type and the nature of the specific design and drivers used. Moreover they're big; 20Hz extension must translate into some 20 cubic feet of horn volume, unacceptable I presume to the cinephiles for whom 10-15Hz clean extension is mandatory, not to mention that the sheer size is a show stopper to most others.

The overall traits of bass horns to my ears makes them inherently more musical than direct radiator solutions, but of course I wouldn't rule out exceptions to the contrary.



I use my setup for both music playback and Home Theater (2.2 channel only), and with my former sub - the SVS SB16-Ultra - I was given a taste of what reproduction below 20Hz means when watching certain Blu-ray/UHD films. The in-room response of the SB16 I gather hits 15Hz quite easily, whereas my current pair of Tapped Horns, each fitted with a 15" and taking up 20 cubic feet per horn (crossed at 80Hz), roll off steeply below 20Hz (not least dictated by the high-pass filter I apply at 20Hz).

While it's audible that my new TH's don't extend as deeply as the SB16 it's what happens from 20Hz on up that's most important to me (not that I wouldn't cherish 10Hz flat from a pair of tapped horns..!), and here the TH's are very different animals by comparison. It's what happens when the sonic scenario becomes really complex and energetic that's interesting, and here the TH's simply open up a sound spectacle that's more coherent, effortless, layered and dynamic - like a wide, immensely informative sonic panorama that effortlessly washes over you (putting a grin on my face). Playing Mad Max Fury Road on Blu-ray really gives you an idea here, not least the latter portion of the film. However the traits of tapped horns are also obvious with more quiet, subtle effects.

A friend of mine uses 2 EV cinema subs in his home setup, each fitted with 2 x 18" woofers (direct radiating, ported), and they sport more ponderous heft and weight while lacking the nimble attack, midbass energy, airiness and effortless omnipresence of my tapped horns. The EV's doesn't feel strained as such, and yet they don't sound as effortless. They mayn't be representative of a majority of direct radiator solutions out there, but fundamentally they to my experience.

So, why build or have build 20 cubic feet tapped horns that "only" extends to 20Hz and are upper band limited to ~100-110Hz, when wider bandwidth alternatives can be had in a smaller, direct radiating package? Because the former sounds so damn good in the frequency band it is able to handle, and not least because my main speakers are all-horns; going horns all the way to my ears is vastly superior to a hybrid combo.
I really like this response. Its fair and does represent perfectly my experience too.

As a theater guy I do cherish 10hz, even 5hz now and because I want it....you explain perfectly why i built DR. Same for those who prefer music. I cannot argue DR are better from 25 to 100 that for sure. And DR kill it below 20.
rezag likes this.
RoboAVS is offline  
post #14 of 188 Old 05-12-2019, 09:40 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 22,562
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1755 Post(s)
Liked: 617
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezag View Post
I've searched quite a bit on this subject, both here and elsewhere, and honestly any elaborate takes trying to come about what I'm inquiring with my original post are rare, and very few really care to draw up comparisons here - elaborately, that is.

Did you try the archives?

If nothing else, search for posts by Tom Danley; whether directly addressing horns vs. alternatives, most every one is fascinating and educational.

Noah
noah katz is online now  
post #15 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 10:01 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
BassThatHz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Northern Okan range (NW Cascades region)
Posts: 10,587
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3654 Post(s)
Liked: 4136
The problem I'm having is that the LMS-18's can't be replaced, and are easily bottomable in a sealed box given how strong their motors are.

I looked at ported initially, but I didn't like the port velocities I was seeing and it was nearly the same size as horned and 6db quieter, so that's when I decided to make the HzHorn, which is basically a vertical refold of the GHorn, and tuned to 15hz instead.

Basically I built the biggest horn I could fit in the assigned space,
which was a little over 7ft x 2ft x 2ft... and that's the mini-me version! It really should be bigger, ideally...

It's larger than any residential fridge I've ever seen or owned, it's about 50% larger than a full marty.

The excursion problem is no-more, I can dump a full FP channel at the driver and it won't bottom out,
which is great for movies where the signal is unknown in frequency and amplitude (EOT intro etc etc)

1 HzHorn equal to roughly ~2 ported LMS-18's, and equal to roughly ~3+ sealed LMS-18's in sheer output. Although that is a gross oversimplification.
I gained like 24db @ 15hz vs sealed. To say it is a welcome addition in movie-mode would be an understatement. LOL

It's partially usable to 10hz, and moderately usable to 12hz, below that it is too rolled off and out of phase to be of any use.

Horns make the best movie-subwoofer IMO, me personally I would never bother with ported, either stay sealed or go directly to horned (if you can).

Horns and ported boxes have higher group delay, and ported boxes have excessive chuffing at the extremes, chuffing on horns is more gradual given the size of the mouth. None of those are good things though. For sealed and IB is it only ever mechanical distortion. Apples vs Oranges (both edible though.)

A 1hz ported box is basically a sealed box. That's how it has turned out every time I've played with the idea in winISD at least... You lose all the efficiency of ported/horned if you tune too low, which is the primary attribute that is supposed to set them apart!
Like all things, there are limits. No free lunch...

I happen to enjoy being "flat to dc" and so I'm not willing to lose more than 2 sealed LMS-18's to the cause; No matter how loud or good horns may be...

If I had a bigger room I'd definitely convert all 4 of them to horns, and buy more sealed 24's to make back the lost single-digits.
I intend to buy 5 24's for my current room, regardless.
BassThatHz is offline  
post #16 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 10:08 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 18,300
Mentioned: 134 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2307 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
To me sealed or IB wins all day due to being full bandwidth. However, you need to have the same output as the other designs. Of course this makes the sealed much more expensive because you need more drivers and amp power. You could fit many sealed whatever in the same size horn single driver, the difference would be cost as output comes close.

Audio Design Associates/Outlaw
Speakerpower SP1-4000
subs-Re audio XXX 18 IB(LT).
DIY speakers-mktheater-S10/S12s
MKtheater is online now  
post #17 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 11:13 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,172
Mentioned: 309 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3714 Post(s)
Liked: 3679
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I gained like 24db @ 15hz vs sealed. To say it is a welcome addition in movie-mode would be an understatement. LOL
Lol no, you didn't.
notnyt is offline  
post #18 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 11:39 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 2,422
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1404 Post(s)
Liked: 976
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Lol no, you didn't.

How so?

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
Russdawg1 is online now  
post #19 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 11:40 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,172
Mentioned: 309 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3714 Post(s)
Liked: 3679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
How so?
physics.
notnyt is offline  
post #20 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 11:43 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 2,422
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1404 Post(s)
Liked: 976
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
physics.

Why does physics dictate that he cannot gain 24dB at 15hz? I know that from going from sealed to ported, I gained over 10dB at 15hz. More when lower I bet.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
Russdawg1 is online now  
post #21 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 11:46 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,172
Mentioned: 309 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3714 Post(s)
Liked: 3679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
Why does physics dictate that he cannot gain 24dB at 15hz? I know that from going from sealed to ported, I gained over 10dB at 15hz. More when lower I bet.
Model it and see.
notnyt is offline  
post #22 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 12:04 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,172
Mentioned: 309 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3714 Post(s)
Liked: 3679
BTH plays it quite loose with the numbers he posts.

As I actually built ported cabs from sealed cabs for the 5400s, I can attest that the ~12db of gain over sealed at tune is accurate.

Also note, that these levels in the Hzhorn would damage the driver around 20hz, while the ported enclosure would still be just below xmech. Horns are not some magic fix for over excursion. You've gained massive resonances for a bit extra efficiency in some ranges. I decided instead of building horns, I'd just double up on drivers in ported enclosures. No ugly resonances or ringing to contend with. Obviously, this is not budget friendly, but I already had the drivers and was limited more by space.

HzHorn vs sealed in 4 cubes, both with 90v applied. 12db gain over sealed at 15hz.



HzHorn vs ported, 90v applied, no gain over ported at 15hz.


HzHorn vs ported, 90v applied, excursion graph.


HzHorn vs 2x 5400s in ported enclosure, 90v applied


These look different than the graphs posted in the HzHorn thread since I actually enabled complex when modeling.

Last edited by notnyt; 05-13-2019 at 12:24 PM.
notnyt is offline  
post #23 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 12:47 PM
Senior Member
 
notfastenough's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: The Colony, TX
Posts: 336
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
BTH plays it quite loose with the numbers he posts.

As I actually built ported cabs from sealed cabs for the 5400s, I can attest that the ~12db of gain over sealed at tune is accurate.

Also note, that these levels in the Hzhorn would damage the driver around 20hz, while the ported enclosure would still be just below xmech. Horns are not some magic fix for over excursion. You've gained massive resonances for a bit extra efficiency in some ranges. I decided instead of building horns, I'd just double up on drivers in ported enclosures. No ugly resonances or ringing to contend with. Obviously, this is not budget friendly, but I already had the drivers and was limited more by space.

HzHorn vs sealed in 4 cubes, both with 90v applied. 12db gain over sealed at 15hz......d

.....These look different than the graphs posted in the HzHorn thread since I actually enabled complex when modeling.
Thanks for taking the time to model this! Makes it very visible to understand differences.

Playing a bit of devil's advocate, (and playing numbers loosely ) Could that 24db delta be a 1w/1m GP comparison? I understand that's not a fair comparison of system capabilities at listening levels, just curious if it's that much of a gap for efficiency* difference at 15hz between a horn and sealed.

*If efficiency is the correct terminology here.
notfastenough is online now  
post #24 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rezag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post
All approaches have their negatives, and any chosen path is a compromise that best fits some combination of need, taste, skill, budget, space...
Absolutely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
I really like this response. Its fair and does represent perfectly my experience too.

As a theater guy I do cherish 10hz, even 5hz now and because I want it....you explain perfectly why i built DR. Same for those who prefer music. I cannot argue DR are better from 25 to 100 that for sure. And DR kill it below 20.
As both a music and home theater aficionado there mayn't necessarily follow a compromise to some when choosing subs, but to me it was fairly obvious; having all-horn mains calls for horn sub-bass augmentation, period - certainly if you ask me - and that means giving up usable bandwidth and dealing with BIG size. So, striving for seamless integration and all that follows going quality all-horns: dynamics, ease, coherency, etc.

In my case I wanted to be able to cross over to the mains from at least 80Hz to take fuller advantage of relieving the mains (and the power amp that feeds them) with a quality high-pass filtering, a Xilica XP-3060 digital XO - not the most popular approach btw. among 'audiophiles' in general, high-passing the mains, but I find it holds obvious benefits seeking measures to aid headroom and ease, with further positive side effects to boot. This choice, no less than 80Hz XO to the mains, naturally dictates the "lower knee" of a horn sub, not least tapped horns, which means a tuning frequency no lower than 20-25Hz and effectively full 20Hz extension. Some might feel the low corner from a tapped must be at least 25-30Hz if a XO to the mains is needed of >80Hz, but I use a steep 7th order L-R filter which gives a few extra Hz of upper bandwidth - without any EQ.

Briefly I did consider TH's with a tuning frequency below 20Hz, but upper bandwidth then became an issue, not to mention the excessive size that even I can't accommodate. I very also shortly toyed with the idea of a pair of 21" ported subs, and later the "discovery" of Josh Ricci's split-in-half Skorn/Skram subs which, in conjunction with the Othorns, were the most seriously considered runners-up choices to my MicroWreckers of @lilmike . All of which I'm sure are great alternatives, but the price of a pair of B&C 21" units needed here was a no-go (the 15" B&C 15TBX100 unit in my MW's comes in more reasonably priced).

To sum up I'm more of a tapped horn/FLH or other higher sensitivity 6th order BP iteration kinda dude, which means loss of ULF but great(er) ~20-100Hz reproduction. As a movie buff though I'd love to have those 10Hz (actually 15Hz more or less flat would suffice) extension, but indeed - you can't have it all. As is I just enjoy what a pair of tapped horns can do in their usable range

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Did you try the archives?

If nothing else, search for posts by Tom Danley; whether directly addressing horns vs. alternatives, most every one is fascinating and educational.
Thanks for the suggestion. Yes, did try the archives, and there are some goodies there for sure.

Mr. Danley, the man whose TH-50's heavily inspired the design of my MW's, is a treasure of knowledge and innovation. Have read through most of the Danley DTS-10 "Super Spud" thread, and here I found some of the most worthwhile comparisons between the DTS-10, as a tapped horn, and direct radiating subs. I guess I just wanted a broader perspective from other users and different TH's..

Last edited by rezag; 05-13-2019 at 12:57 PM.
rezag is offline  
post #25 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 12:52 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,172
Mentioned: 309 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3714 Post(s)
Liked: 3679
Quote:
Originally Posted by notfastenough View Post
Thanks for taking the time to model this! Makes it very visible to understand differences.

Playing a bit of devil's advocate, (and playing numbers loosely ) Could that 24db delta be a 1w/1m GP comparison? I understand that's not a fair comparison of system capabilities at listening levels, just curious if it's that much of a gap for efficiency* difference at 15hz between a horn and sealed.

*If efficiency is the correct terminology here.
These are all modeled with the same input voltage, so there will be no difference.
notnyt is offline  
post #26 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rezag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 23
@notnyt --

Does your profile picture reflect your actual setup? If so that's some serious (sub-)bass power and extension, I'd guess. Are your subs a ported design?

EDIT: yes it is, it reads loud and clearly - pardon..
rezag is offline  
post #27 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 01:05 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,172
Mentioned: 309 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3714 Post(s)
Liked: 3679
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezag View Post
@notnyt --

Does your profile picture reflect your actual setup? If so that's some serious (sub-)bass power and extension, I'd guess. Are your subs a ported design?

EDIT: yes it is, it reads loud and clearly - pardon..
yep



Craig S King likes this.

Last edited by notnyt; 05-13-2019 at 01:09 PM.
notnyt is offline  
post #28 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rezag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
yep



Awesome.. Makes the pair of my MW's seem quite small by comparison

Close to flat to 10Hz or thereabouts - I'm assuming structural integrity could be challenged with +120dB's here..??
Mike_WI likes this.
rezag is offline  
post #29 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 01:15 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,172
Mentioned: 309 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3714 Post(s)
Liked: 3679
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezag View Post
Awesome.. Makes the pair of my MW's seem quite small by comparison

Close to flat to 10Hz or thereabouts - I'm assuming structural integrity could be challenged with +120dB's here..??
Yes, imagic was over for a demo and playing some tracks with really low bass fundamentals. The outer walls of the house were resonating and moving quite a bit, had to lower it lol.
Mike_WI and rezag like this.
notnyt is offline  
post #30 of 188 Old 05-13-2019, 04:36 PM
Senior Member
 
Chris Popovich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 272
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 134 Post(s)
Liked: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
How so?
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
physics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
Why does physics dictate that he cannot gain 24dB at 15hz? I know that from going from sealed to ported, I gained over 10dB at 15hz. More when lower I bet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Model it and see.
Just to play devil's advocate, while I understand that you're talking about sims, BTH may be talking about actual in-room measurements, and he may not have removed a sealed sub from location X and put the horn exactly in that same spot. This is a more reasonable thing when you consider the significant size differences. He also may have capped the LMS power when sealed and left a little on the table in the pursuit of not blowing them up.

I acknowledge and appreciate BTH's colorfulness while posting. That notwithstanding, I imagine he made the statement he did for a reason, and it may not mean the same thing as if you made the same statement, yet it may still be correct at the same time. Just a thought.

Chris
fill35U likes this.
Chris Popovich is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off