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post #1 of 20 Old 05-13-2019, 03:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Trouble with DIY Sub.

Alrighty, where to begin. I'll try and keep it brief.

I'm having trouble with extremely low output from a DIY sub. The design is based on the martysub using the following driver:

http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/S...SWPL76#4%CE%A9

In a net 70L (2.5 cu ft) enclosure.

I modelled it up in WINISD. Everything checks out and the design is solid on paper. Cone excursion within it's limits once a HPF applied. See below for a SPL chart limiting the amp to 300w.

https://i.imgur.com/Fp2e48D.jpg

I've followed the martysub guide to setting it up. Set the limiter to 300w (RMS limit of the speaker). Applied the HPF. Running off Channel A.

The issue. I am barely hitting 90db at 20hz. The sub is struggling to keep up with my 80w HTiB sub... It feels like the signal from the AVR to the iNuke is weak. Even with the gain knob full on the iNuke (which shouldn't be necessary) and the AVR set to +12db for the sub output, the iNuke is registering a very weak signal. It was clipping at +55db on the Denon and wasn't loud... at all! For reference, I run most movies at +75-80db.

I thought perhaps it was an issue with the cable. I had a RCA to XLR cable (unbalanced to balanced) which I thought might be the issue. Changed to RCA to TS, didn't really change anything. I have a Plate amp (SPA250DSP) for another build and tried that without much improvement.

If I set the AVR at +3db and the iNuke at 50% (which should be about right), I barely get any sound from the sub, even at +70 "master volume" on the Denon. With the same settings on my HTiB speaker, I get half decent output...

I've mucked around with a heap of settings but not having any luck. I don't expect to make ears bleed but I expected farrrrrr more.

Any ideas? Where do I start here?
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post #2 of 20 Old 05-13-2019, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benthatcher View Post
Alrighty, where to begin. I'll try and keep it brief.

I'm having trouble with extremely low output from a DIY sub. The design is based on the martysub using the following driver:

http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/S...SWPL76#4%CE%A9

In a net 70L (2.5 cu ft) enclosure.

I modelled it up in WINISD. Everything checks out and the design is solid on paper. Cone excursion within it's limits once a HPF applied. See below for a SPL chart limiting the amp to 300w.

https://i.imgur.com/Fp2e48D.jpg

I've followed the martysub guide to setting it up. Set the limiter to 300w (RMS limit of the speaker). Applied the HPF. Running off Channel A.

The issue. I am barely hitting 90db at 20hz. The sub is struggling to keep up with my 80w HTiB sub... It feels like the signal from the AVR to the iNuke is weak. Even with the gain knob full on the iNuke (which shouldn't be necessary) and the AVR set to +12db for the sub output, the iNuke is registering a very weak signal. It was clipping at +55db on the Denon and wasn't loud... at all! For reference, I run most movies at +75-80db.

I thought perhaps it was an issue with the cable. I had a RCA to XLR cable (unbalanced to balanced) which I thought might be the issue. Changed to RCA to TS, didn't really change anything. I have a Plate amp (SPA250DSP) for another build and tried that without much improvement.

If I set the AVR at +3db and the iNuke at 50% (which should be about right), I barely get any sound from the sub, even at +70 "master volume" on the Denon. With the same settings on my HTiB speaker, I get half decent output...

I've mucked around with a heap of settings but not having any luck. I don't expect to make ears bleed but I expected farrrrrr more.

Any ideas? Where do I start here?

Have you tried resetting the Nuke back to default? I would give that a shot and try playing some music that does not have crazy low frequency effects. Just make sure the amp is in stereo mode put the gain knob back at the 3 o clock position. I would also suggest turning the sub trim back down to 0db on the AVR, if the signal is clipped that can also mess with the equation. Then you can eliminate an issue with a filters on the amp.

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post #3 of 20 Old 05-13-2019, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Have you tried resetting the Nuke back to default? I would give that a shot and try playing some music that does not have crazy low frequency effects. Just make sure the amp is in stereo mode put the gain knob back at the 3 o clock position. I would also suggest turning the sub trim back down to 0db on the AVR, if the signal is clipped that can also mess with the equation. Then you can eliminate an issue with a filters on the amp.
Really appreciate the reply mate. I whipped up a "short pin 3 to ground" XLR cable and it's noticeably better. Still feel it's a little out but it's getting there. Still getting some clipping in really bass heavy scenes but I still have some tweaking to do.

I also need to re-run audyssey AND I'm part way through a 2nd sub which should fill a few lulls in the room. A combination of all the above will hopefully tidying things up. Also not sure how much 'breaking in' subs need?

It's getting a little late and I don't feel like annoying the Mrs (and the neighbours) so I'm calling it a night. Open to more suggestions and settings that you and others think may help.

Thanks again.

EDIT: Also... I ran a straight 20hz tone from YouTube (not ideal but all I had readily available) and there was significant cone movement, if I pressed my hand up against the HT room walls they were shaking like crazy, but the volume was bordering on non existent. What exactly do this mean? Is this a symptom of something?

Last edited by benthatcher; 05-13-2019 at 06:41 AM.
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post #4 of 20 Old 05-13-2019, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benthatcher View Post
Really appreciate the reply mate. I whipped up a "short pin 3 to ground" XLR cable and it's noticeably better. Still feel it's a little out but it's getting there. Still getting some clipping in really bass heavy scenes but I still have some tweaking to do.

I also need to re-run audyssey AND I'm part way through a 2nd sub which should fill a few lulls in the room. A combination of all the above will hopefully tidying things up. Also not sure how much 'breaking in' subs need?

It's getting a little late and I don't feel like annoying the Mrs (and the neighbours) so I'm calling it a night. Open to more suggestions and settings that you and others think may help.

Thanks again.

EDIT: Also... I ran a straight 20hz tone from YouTube (not ideal but all I had readily available) and there was significant cone movement, if I pressed my hand up against the HT room walls they were shaking like crazy, but the volume was bordering on non existent. What exactly do this mean? Is this a symptom of something?

With the sub in the current position walk around the room. You might find hot spots where it is very loud and places where it is null. Since you are getting strong cone movement, this could just be the room working against the sub in the current position.

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post #5 of 20 Old 05-13-2019, 07:08 AM
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One other quick note, for getting the most out of your system take a look at this guide - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...eferences.html It is a long read, but full of useful information

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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #6 of 20 Old 05-13-2019, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benthatcher View Post
Really appreciate the reply mate. I whipped up a "short pin 3 to ground" XLR cable and it's noticeably better. Still feel it's a little out but it's getting there. Still getting some clipping in really bass heavy scenes but I still have some tweaking to do.

I also need to re-run audyssey AND I'm part way through a 2nd sub which should fill a few lulls in the room. A combination of all the above will hopefully tidying things up. Also not sure how much 'breaking in' subs need?

It's getting a little late and I don't feel like annoying the Mrs (and the neighbours) so I'm calling it a night. Open to more suggestions and settings that you and others think may help.

Thanks again.

EDIT: Also... I ran a straight 20hz tone from YouTube (not ideal but all I had readily available) and there was significant cone movement, if I pressed my hand up against the HT room walls they were shaking like crazy, but the volume was bordering on non existent. What exactly do this mean? Is this a symptom of something?

Look up the Robinson-Dadson ( formerly Fletcher-Munson ) equal loudness contours.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour


To 'sound' as loud as an 80 dB average mid band noise, 20 hz would need to be 110 dB, the ear is insensitive to low frequencies at low volumes. As the levels climb, the ear becomes more sensitive to low frequencies.



I haven't run a simulation, but off the cuff, 2.5 cubic feet for a 12" vented is in the ballpark.



Perhaps the listening position is located in a null. Also to note, low distortion subwoofers tend to not 'sound' as loud. Inexpensive subwoofers producing large amounts of 2nd , 3rd ( and higher orders ) of distortion sound loud.

Easy isn't worth anything.
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post #7 of 20 Old 05-13-2019, 08:34 AM
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You are thinking about it backwards. It is not a gain knob, it is an input attenuator.
Fully clockwise isn't max gain, it is zero loss.

What does winISD say the max SPL should be, given this driver and the box you put it in?
Do you have a UMIK-1 and REW to confirm the SPL?

Furthermore, you can get a multi-meter from walmart or any hardware store, you can disconnect the speaker wires from the driver and connect the multi-meter directly to the cable ends with the multi-meter in VAC(Volts AC) mode. (Don't let the wires or probe ends touch or the inuke will die from 0-ohms.)

Make sure all EQ is off in both the AVR and the inuke.
Play a 60hz sinewave via REW, it must be 60hz.

As per ohms-law: 300w @ 4-ohm is 34.6 volts RMS
You should be able to hit that.

It is likely just an input-signal issue.
There is a gain textbox on the limiter tab in the inuke software if I recall. You can try to crank that if you actually want boost. All that will do though it make the amplifier clip more easily.

If you are already clipping it, then that is all the SPL that wattage will produce on that driver/box, if you want it louder you'll have to turn the limiter off or set it to max-power. That of course will be at your own risk, you may end up smoking that driver from excessive power.

There are two things that cause a driver to die: heat and bottoming. Power causes both of those.

Heat and low ohms or excessive current or undervolting at the wallsocket can also kill an amplifier.

In general, sinewaves put a lot of stress on the driver and amplifier. Pretty much maximum stress. If something is gonna melt it will be from sinewaves. Mid-bass causes the driver to park and boil, and low tones causes bottoming (and sometimes also heat, especially with single digits.)

Clean subs will sound less loud, that is because distortion+SPL will always be louder than just SPL.

Also, humans hear distortion as loudness. Your kid's iphone isn't loud, it is just playing music you dislike (with distortion). It's only 90db worth of treble and zero bass. (Therefore: go to bed! )

Annoyance can be perceived as loudness too, 3 minutes isn't very long, but all the people on your block will be hella annoyed after just 2 minutes of basshead music. It literally slows down time for them, ~2 minutes feels like ~2 hours when the noise is undesired and unwanted. (Let the waterboarding commence! )

In general though, 12's aren't very loud, even at max power and max excursion.
That said, loudness is relative to the person, even a single 18 is quite to someone who is acclimatized to years of usage of an array of subwoofers and an array of amplifiers.

It could also be that you are just a basshead, bassheads are never happy with any amount of bass. They will adapt, like the Borg, and then just desire MOAR...

and THAT is how upgraditis is born.
You are just slowly coming to the realization that arrays of these products are REQUIRED.

Get out, while you still CAN...
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post #8 of 20 Old 05-13-2019, 08:56 AM
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The comment above is what I was going to say. The knob on the front of the amp should be all the way.
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post #9 of 20 Old 05-13-2019, 09:33 AM
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Get out, while you still CAN...

Lol, I watched Blade and Blade 2 yesterday, and you post this pic. I know yer the gubmint, but STOP SPYING ON ME!!!
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post #10 of 20 Old 05-16-2019, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Update...

Managed to muck around with it again last night, but I can't say I was left completely satisfied. I followed some advice in this thread (and others). Set the "input attenuator" to max and re-ran audyssey. It went straight to -12db for the sub. I didn't get the chance to run REW as the only laptop (my brothers) went flat . All good, I can come back to this over the weekend.

With the input attenuator max and audyssey set at -12db, I fired up Power Rangers in 4k (terrible movie, but the intro scene has a decent amount of bass and I'm familiar with it) and set the Denon to "75" (which is what level I usually watch movies). For the sake of simplicity, I only had the HPF set to prevent over excursion of the driver. I also set the limiter to the equivalent of 300w into 4 ohms (about 34 volts).

With just those settings, the amp was quickly clipping in the more intense bass scenes... Not just hitting the limiter (right light bar), but clipping ('left' light bar for those that know the iNuke amps), FYI, this was closely matched to the limiter hitting it's limits. This is probably where most of my confusion comes in. This should only happen when I push the amp correct? The amp is capable of 650ish RMS into 4 ohms, yet I'm clipping at around 300w into 4 ohms? There should be a heap of headroom. I understand hitting the limiter, but don't get how the amp itself is clipping. Maybe this is me lacking knowledge/education around the subject and missing something?

I then mucked around with a heap of different combinations with the iNuke and AVR without much success (including increasing the limiter to the equivalent of 500w into 4 ohms as 'safely' as I could). My final setting was leaving the AVR on -/+ 0db and setting the "input attenuator" as high as it will allow me to go in bass intense scenes without the amp clipping/hitting the limiter, which worked out to be about 65%. The result was pretty underwhelming . Maybe I am being misled by my familiarisation with "bad bass"? While my other subs were louder (which I do like), I can definitely "feel" the DIY sub far more which is good.

Not quite sure where this leaves me. I have another one of these to build which will give me a theoretical increase of 3db and will smooth out the response.

Happy for more suggestions. Maybe I am expecting too much... But I can't help but feel something is off. I feel the amp is working far harder than it needs to. Looks like I'll be building some 18's in a bigger box??? Oh god, it's beginning...
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post #11 of 20 Old 05-16-2019, 06:00 AM
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It is a smaller sub and it sounds like you are seeking more bass production. The best bet is going for more cone area and box displacement. Less heat, distortion and stress on equipment vs chasing a lot of power in smaller packages. Not many of us have the space for 32 sub woofers, but there is middle ground. Where are you located? This can really change the suggestions

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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #12 of 20 Old 05-16-2019, 06:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Australia actually!

Far from spoilt for choice here. I’d pretty much go straight to UM-18s in a Full Marty if I was going to go to the “next level”.
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post #13 of 20 Old 05-16-2019, 06:09 AM
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Take a look at this page quick and see what you think after looking at it - https://shop.gsgad.com/pages/perform...mparison-table

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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #14 of 20 Old 05-16-2019, 06:25 AM
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Your simulation is for a listening distance of 1 meter from the speaker. In room could be less, especially if you're in a bass-null. As for the clipping, if the sensitivity of the iNuke is 0.75v and the AVR is putting out a signal higher than that, that might help explain the ease of clipping, right?
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Try flipping the polarity on the sub ( either in the software at the amp, or physically at the cable connections on the sub ) and try that.

Easy isn't worth anything.
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post #16 of 20 Old 05-16-2019, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benthatcher View Post
With the input attenuator max and audyssey set at -12db
Try turning aud off completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benthatcher View Post
I also set the limiter to the equivalent of 300w into 4 ohms (about 34 volts).

The amp is capable of 650ish RMS into 4 ohms, yet I'm clipping at around 300w into 4 ohms?
An oversimplification, but essentially: limiting and clipping are the same thing.

You are basically telling the amp to not produce more than 34volts or whatever-volts...

Some amps have soft-limiters where they will apply automatic input attenuation to the input signal to not mangle the output into a squarewave (hard limiting/clipping).

You also forgot that marketing people are liars. The amplifiers never make the power they say they do and the drivers never handle the power they say they do. You always have to buy double the beefyness of what they tell you. Like a bridged 3kDSP as a minimum...

Most people don't listen at 1m either, they listen at 3-5m. Which means buying another 4-8x more meat.

Also 300w vs 600w is only 3db (but like 4x the coil heat).
If say 34v is 90db, 93db isn't gonna be world-shatteringly louder.

Human ears are also insensitive to bass. 70db @ 20hz = 1db @ 1khz of perceived loudness.
They say that 10db is required for an ear to "perceive" something as 2x loudness, I'd say below 100db that holds true. As you approach 120db things start changing.

All of this is why people buy 8 UM-18's and 4 6kDSP's... or quad 24's and a XBS FP20k on a 30a breaker.

You should buy a UMIK-1, it will tell you exactly what is what.
Maybe you are sitting in a null or placed the sub in a null.
All locations in all rooms have multiple nulls, the only question remaining is: at what frequencies and how bad...
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post #17 of 20 Old 05-16-2019, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benthatcher View Post

With just those settings, the amp was quickly clipping in the more intense bass scenes... Not just hitting the limiter (right light bar), but clipping ('left' light bar for those that know the iNuke amps), FYI, this was closely matched to the limiter hitting it's limits. This is probably where most of my confusion comes in. This should only happen when I push the amp correct? The amp is capable of 650ish RMS into 4 ohms, yet I'm clipping at around 300w into 4 ohms? There should be a heap of headroom. I understand hitting the limiter, but don't get how the amp itself is clipping. Maybe this is me lacking knowledge/education around the subject and missing something?

I think you may be confused on how the light bars work. The left and right just indicate left and right channels, not clip and limit. If you hit the red light with a limiter on, you are simply hitting the limiter, not necessarily clipping the amp.
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post #18 of 20 Old 05-17-2019, 12:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies chaps. Sounds like my expectations were probably a little high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
You should buy a UMIK-1, it will tell you exactly what is what.
I do have a U-MIK, I'll muck around with it this weekend and see how that goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raylon View Post
I think you may be confused on how the light bars work. The left and right just indicate left and right channels, not clip and limit. If you hit the red light with a limiter on, you are simply hitting the limiter, not necessarily clipping the amp.
See image below.

https://www.racedepartment.com/attac.../1-png.287505/

Can you reference the picture to explain please?

There's clip and limit. The limit does JUST hit before the clip if I set the limiter to 34v (equiv of 300w into 4 ohms). If I turn the limiter off, they clip/hit the limiter at the same time. My understanding of this was the limiter is being hit before the amp clips? Or am I wrong here and completely misunderstanding these light bars lol?

What I felt was off about this is it hits the "clip" around the same point it's hitting the limiter when the limiter is set to 34v (300w into 4 ohms) yet the amp is capable of 650w RMS into 4 ohms. Obviously manufacturers love to stretch figures, but that much?

Thanks all for the educating comments. This side of audio is all quite new to me!
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post #19 of 20 Old 05-17-2019, 06:14 AM
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Trouble with DIY Sub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benthatcher View Post
Thanks for the replies chaps. Sounds like my expectations were probably a little high.







I do have a U-MIK, I'll muck around with it this weekend and see how that goes.







See image below.



https://www.racedepartment.com/attac.../1-png.287505/



Can you reference the picture to explain please?



There's clip and limit. The limit does JUST hit before the clip if I set the limiter to 34v (equiv of 300w into 4 ohms). If I turn the limiter off, they clip/hit the limiter at the same time. My understanding of this was the limiter is being hit before the amp clips? Or am I wrong here and completely misunderstanding these light bars lol?



What I felt was off about this is it hits the "clip" around the same point it's hitting the limiter when the limiter is set to 34v (300w into 4 ohms) yet the amp is capable of 650w RMS into 4 ohms. Obviously manufacturers love to stretch figures, but that much?



Thanks all for the educating comments. This side of audio is all quite new to me!


First off, you need to to change the phase to 180. The iNukes/NX phase is switched inside the amp, don’t ask me why. And, you’re not clipping the amp, your clipping the input.

Also, Behringer uses PEAK RMS not constant. So, 650w at 4ohms is more like 325.


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Last edited by Rowan611; 05-17-2019 at 07:17 AM.
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post #20 of 20 Old 05-17-2019, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benthatcher View Post
See image below.

https://www.racedepartment.com/attac.../1-png.287505/

Can you reference the picture to explain please?

There's clip and limit. The limit does JUST hit before the clip if I set the limiter to 34v (equiv of 300w into 4 ohms). If I turn the limiter off, they clip/hit the limiter at the same time. My understanding of this was the limiter is being hit before the amp clips? Or am I wrong here and completely misunderstanding these light bars lol?

What I felt was off about this is it hits the "clip" around the same point it's hitting the limiter when the limiter is set to 34v (300w into 4 ohms) yet the amp is capable of 650w RMS into 4 ohms. Obviously manufacturers love to stretch figures, but that much?

Thanks all for the educating comments. This side of audio is all quite new to me!
Ooooh shoot, nevermind. I was thinking you were talking about the lights on the front of the amp itself, not the software. Ignore me.
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