How/what do you use to replace dual horns - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 20 Old 05-15-2019, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I have dual F20’s (horns), they were up front and sound AWESOME! They are too big so I moved them to the back of the room but it’s just NOT THE SAME. Let me explain.
I’m converting to an AT screen next so I can get my center HTM12 off the floor and so I’ve been experimenting with other ways of doing my setup. The sound they produce is perfect for front stage and compliment my htm’s perfect but in the end they are just too big in size.
Here is my room with the horn setup.
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And my room with the new slimmer speaker setup. Dual pa460’s tuned to 18hz in 8 cuft skinnier boxes.
This is my new “starting point”. REW agrees.
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What can I do/build behind a new AT screen and AT front wall (12-14” depth) to replace the sound I’m missing? Picture two is what I want to add to anywhere I don’t have speakers now, but not changing screen size. Action scenes are just not the same, almost boring fight scenes but cannon fire is still over the top fun. So I guess what I need is a higher tune, more spl...... something. And I can build just about anything.

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post #2 of 20 Old 05-15-2019, 05:53 AM
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What is the budget? If you are looking for something that does not dig really deep more PA460s upper 20s for tune will work well. Could you find a little more space back there - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...5-4-build.html This would be an overkill solution.... but this is AVS.



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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #3 of 20 Old 05-15-2019, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Budget is..... 2-4 sub’s with a new amp maybe (one or two pieces at a time, but not all at the same time - JUST AN EXAMPLE).
I really like that box and if 21’s were in my “redesign” I would go there but seeing that I’m looking for a higher tune vs lower I’m not sure that would fill my needs. And depth of wall can fudge a little because I have to turn my htm,s in anyways. I’m thinking more along a higher tune something or maybe a mtm? But aren’t mtm’s meant to smooth things out more rather than the LFE effect?

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post #4 of 20 Old 05-15-2019, 08:32 AM
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I threw this together. 7 cuft, 28Hz tune, 2nd order HPF 27Hz 300 watts, 1st port resonance 630.7Hz, excursion 8mm (about all the more I would push it).


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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #5 of 20 Old 05-15-2019, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile75 View Post
I really like that box and if 21’s were in my “redesign” I would go there but seeing that I’m looking for a higher tune vs lower I’m not sure that would fill my needs.
Did you see the SPL graph in the first post of that thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile75
I’m thinking more along a higher tune something or maybe a mtm? But aren’t mtm’s meant to smooth things out more rather than the LFE effect?
What is "mtm" in this context? Suspect not what I am familiar with (midwoofer-tweeter-midwoofer).
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post #6 of 20 Old 05-15-2019, 08:48 AM
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Double the number of PA-460's and them tune higher. 30hz is more optimal for that driver.
Then save for a ported SI-24 behind the seat (or dual sealed).

You'll want to box model it first.
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post #7 of 20 Old 05-15-2019, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post

What is "mtm" in this context?
My guess is they meant 'MBM' for midbass module.
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post #8 of 20 Old 05-15-2019, 08:58 AM
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Put the horns back up front, build new boxes for the PA460s with a 30Hz tune and put them between the LCR (Left SUB Center SUB Right), all sitting on top of the horns, then put it all behind a false wall with your AT screen.
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post #9 of 20 Old 05-15-2019, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=smcmillan2;58051292]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile75 View Post
I really like that box and if 21’s were in my “redesign” I would go there but seeing that I’m looking for a higher tune vs lower I’m not sure that fits my needs.

Did you see the SPL graph in the first post of that thread?
I kinda blew past that, thanks for making me take a 2nd look.
Ya know, if I sell my horns these are totally “do-able”. In fact I really like that graph but.... do they really sound that good from 20-120hz? I feel this is why most of us add more subs “there is always something missing” and not every speaker can play every frequency. Hmm, going to read that full post when I have more time. Thank you.
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post #10 of 20 Old 05-15-2019, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jevchance View Post
Put the horns back up front, build new boxes for the PA460s with a 30Hz tune and put them between the LCR (Left SUB Center SUB Right), all sitting on top of the horns, then put it all behind a false wall with your AT screen.
Here lies the problem. The htm’s sit on the horns which are too wide (away from the wall) so if I build a screen I will have to move it TOO CLOSE to my couch which I cannot move because of my atmos speakers (cut into the ceiling), and if I move my screen back (12” from wall) with a new screen wall with my horns sticking out then my htm’s sound terrible because they are also pushed back (reflections). Forehead slap.
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post #11 of 20 Old 05-15-2019, 09:29 AM
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Hrmmm. What reflections are making the HTMs sound terrible, reflections off the top of the horns?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile75 View Post
Here lies the problem. The htm’s sit on the horns which are too wide (away from the wall) so if I build a screen I will have to move it TOO CLOSE to my couch which I cannot move because of my atmos speakers (cut into the ceiling), and if I move my screen back (12” from wall) with a new screen wall with my horns sticking out then my htm’s sound terrible because they are also pushed back (reflections). Forehead slap.

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post #12 of 20 Old 05-15-2019, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jevchance View Post
Hrmmm. What reflections are making the HTMs sound terrible, reflections off the top of the horns?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile75 View Post
Here lies the problem. The htm’s sit on the horns which are too wide (away from the wall) so if I build a screen I will have to move it TOO CLOSE to my couch which I cannot move because of my atmos speakers (cut into the ceiling), and if I move my screen back (12” from wall) with a new screen wall with my horns sticking out then my htm’s sound terrible because they are also pushed back (reflections). Forehead slap.
Yes, off the top of the horns. But if I keep them (for now) I will leave them near the front edge of the horn which is the second best place for them. But the point of this too is to gain back another foot if my floor space.

Oh ya, sorry “MBM”
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post #13 of 20 Old 05-15-2019, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Double the number of PA-460's and them tune higher. 30hz is more optimal for that driver.
Then save for a ported SI-24 behind the seat (or dual sealed).

You'll want to box model it first.
I have two 20hz VBSS’s behind me now running from 18 - 70hz on 24bw low and 18bw high. I tried a higher xo but found out it sucks any higher than 80hz. Which brings me back to my original problem of “higher tune - front stage”
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post #14 of 20 Old 05-15-2019, 02:31 PM
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I'd be tempted to keep the horns up front and find a way to minimize reflections, but that's me. If the horns sound great up there, seems like you'd want to find a way to make that happen.
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post #15 of 20 Old 05-15-2019, 09:30 PM
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How/what do you use to replace dual horns

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Originally Posted by jevchance View Post
I'd be tempted to keep the horns up front and find a way to minimize reflections, but that's me. If the horns sound great up there, seems like you'd want to find a way to make that happen.


I was thinking the same thing. Instead of building new subs, how about building a small platform(stand) to raise the HTMs off the F20s? Wouldn’t have to be a tall stand, just enough to move the reflection point. Then, you could add some diffusion panels to the tops of the F20s. Or, maybe some more absorption panels. Looks like you’ve got a decent amount of absorption going on. A little diffusion never hurts. Lol.

I bought my diffusion panels off Amazon. They’re over the glass panels of three doors in my room. Not sure they do anything, but I didn’t want the glass showing anyway, and it was an inexpensive way to hide the glass. Might help your situation though.

However, if you’re dead set on building new subs, go big. Those B&C 21s get lots of praise. I had planned on building a few myself, but couldn’t resist the cost of building two more THTs. I, like you, love my horns.


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post #16 of 20 Old 05-15-2019, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Audiophile75 View Post
Yes, off the top of the horns. But if I keep them (for now) I will leave them near the front edge of the horn which is the second best place for them. But the point of this too is to gain back another foot if my floor space.

Oh ya, sorry “MBM”


I get the space issue. But...horns man, horns. I think you’ll have a hard time replacing what you love about the F20s in a direct radiating sub. Just sayin.


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post #17 of 20 Old 05-16-2019, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
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I tried a higher xo but found out it sucks any higher than 80hz. Which brings me back to my original problem of “higher tune - front stage”
a Higher XO and Higher tuning are two different things...
A 30hz tuning and a 300hz LPF are two different things.
I assume you mean an LPF too, because a 80hz HPF makes zero sense.

At this point there are only two options remaining:
1) Convert the adjacent room or hallway into a horn that uses the Theater room as the horn mouth, with 18 18's, and put a screen and a seat in there "somewhere". The first and only 1Hz tuned horn made.

2) 32 Ported 32's + 32 Bridged FP14k's and a 1000a panel with no breaker, direct lugs 0000awg.

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post #18 of 20 Old 05-16-2019, 12:32 AM
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Another option would be coat the entire front wall with cones, leaving only enough space for the LCR in there "somehow".
However many 18's or 21's that would be, that have a mounting depth of 12inches or less.

Beat the room into submission.
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post #19 of 20 Old 05-16-2019, 04:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Convert the adjacent room or hallway into a horn that uses the Theater room as the horn mouth, with 18 18's, and put a screen and a seat in there "somewhere". The first and only 1Hz tuned horn made.
]
Wait..... wait.... wait..... I have the room and the time and the ambition to do this and I’ve asked on this forum for help but it seems like nobody ever took me serious or there is no driver out there built for doing something like that. All seriousness here, I would love to build a horn the size of a bedroom. Just saying.

Oh and the xo thing we were talking about was my near-fields. That should make more sense.

I think I found another option, build four mini horns for behind the screen like t-6’s or picowreckers. I think a couple of you have it right “it’ll be hard to replace what you love, a horn”. I think I’m going to go that route but the 21” does sound tempting.
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post #20 of 20 Old 05-16-2019, 08:01 AM
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I'm pretty SURE you can make a horn that twists into the other 2 dimensions, instead of the standard depth-wise folding.
Horns are based on cross-sectional area, not distance of any given dimension. They normally undergo 2 90 degree turns per fold and they seem totally fine with that, introducing an axial "twist" with a constant-depth of say 12inches shouldn't be a big deal.
That gives you (up to) 12inches depth x whatever height x whatever width to play with. Should be doable.

DO IT!

Depending on how many horns you want and the driver sizes used and horn dimensions used, you'll have to find a way to fold around the LCR's, but that's not an overly difficult thing. (If that is even a problem...)
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