88-Special build - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 81 Old 05-20-2019, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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88-Special build

Going to start on my 88-special build tomorrow! I want to try and match the cinema-10s that I just finished.
Question, they are listed as being 9" deep. Is there any advantage to make the cabinet deeper than stock? It's going in my media table and I have a lot more room in there than 9". Just curious if it would be a bad idea. Thanks!
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post #2 of 81 Old 05-20-2019, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvphotog View Post
Going to start on my 88-special build tomorrow! I want to try and match the cinema-10s that I just finished.
Question, they are listed as being 9" deep. Is there any advantage to make the cabinet deeper than stock? It's going in my media table and I have a lot more room in there than 9". Just curious if it would be a bad idea. Thanks!
I believe that could alter the port tuning, have you modeled the box to see what the difference is?
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post #3 of 81 Old 05-20-2019, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
I believe that could alter the port tuning, have you modeled the box to see what the difference is?
I have not! Im not sure how to do that... haha
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post #4 of 81 Old 05-20-2019, 01:41 PM
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^ shot a PM to @mtg90 . . .
or
as a media table-

engineer the "table" to just sit on top, maybe secured with velcro on the bottom for stability
or small angle braces on the back panel
you'll have exactly the size you need

I'm not sure about how the front surface of the 'table' and its contents might effect the horns vertical dispersion properties, at least upwards
that being said

here are 3 horns and the TV sits about 1/4" above them so . . .
they are really really -good. -ATMOS, DSU, stereo
you're gonna love it
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post #5 of 81 Old 05-21-2019, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
^ shot a PM to @mtg90 . . .
or
as a media table-

engineer the "table" to just sit on top, maybe secured with velcro on the bottom for stability
or small angle braces on the back panel
you'll have exactly the size you need

I'm not sure about how the front surface of the 'table' and its contents might effect the horns vertical dispersion properties, at least upwards
that being said

here are 3 horns and the TV sits about 1/4" above them so . . .
they are really really -good. -ATMOS, DSU, stereo
you're gonna love it
Looks nice!


I have been lurching on DIYSG every day trying to decide what I want to build.
The 88 special is towards the top of the list.

What was it that pushed you guys over the edge on these?
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post #6 of 81 Old 05-21-2019, 10:27 AM
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^

XT32 put the f15's @ 80 and the 88 @ 100 xo

as a pair of surrounds, also 88's, xo is 100

the IMAGING , clarity, detail , and on and on of
the 15" SEOS horns provide is , to my 70 y.o.+ ears,
(and I sat thru a few WHO, Zep, Cream, Deep Purple, Hendrix, Santana and few other , concerts in Berlin, early 70's)

Superlative , (plan for some room treatments0

Can't get the F15's?

I'm willing to bet the HTM12's could be highly effective in putting "up-grade-itis" into remittance for a good while,
if budget / space / WAF, etc. allows,
matching LCR.

at the time, the F15's where a great fit size wise for TV suspension system
the reviews about imaging of the SEOS horns enticing,
especially with some of the charts and dispersion stuff posted by @mtg90 .
I actually built the 88 first , also a first flat pack build- GENUIS engineering,
becasue I could not get a klipsch center , and i had about 4 of 'em, that "worked"
and then the look of the horn . . . bigger is better ?
how could I NOT want to see 3 of those looking back at me . . .
the design also gives them very similar xo's, like 900 and 950 for the CD.

upon opening the F15's , imagine- the CD in 1 hand and the 15" driver in the other
The CD weighed more

It's definitely worth doing some homework wrt the HTM 12's
and the HT 12's
or what about the 12" Co-ax
or
It's not called a rabbit hole by mistake

HTH

these are 88's a surrounds on full motion mounts , about 80 degrees ahead on MLP
but I can swing them forward a bit, change the angulation
go thru the OSD, cancel the Tops and have a mighty fine 7.4 bed layer

IF i replaced the rears, klipsch F3 towers, with some HT of HTM 12's
that would be 7 of those horns . .
what could possibly go wrong . .
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post #7 of 81 Old 05-21-2019, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2_liter_ejturbo View Post
Looks nice!


I have been lurching on DIYSG every day trying to decide what I want to build.
The 88 special is towards the top of the list.

What was it that pushed you guys over the edge on these?
It was really the only DIY center option for me...and it just happens to fit inside my media cabinet. Plus it usually gets excellent reviews. It should compliment the 2 Cinema-10s I just finished. Parts got delivered today!
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post #8 of 81 Old 05-21-2019, 01:05 PM
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Yippee-Ki-O-Ki-Yeaaaaaa

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post #9 of 81 Old 05-21-2019, 01:25 PM
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https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...+Special+build

HTH, non-flatpack

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post #10 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I decided to make my cabinet 12" deep instead of 9" after talking to mtg90. He said this would lower the tuning frequency of the cab. I would get more bass extension but less mid bass. BUT if I cut an inch or two off the ports it would bring back the tune to stock and I would gain the bass extension without a loss in mid bass.

Everything is cut, I just need to glue up tonight. The top and bottom are 1" thick because that's all I had
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post #11 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 09:33 AM
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waiting to see how this measures out-
there is of course that 'set all speakers to small and the xo @80 thing . . .'

so you'll still get a MB bump (?)
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post #12 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvphotog View Post
I decided to make my cabinet 12" deep instead of 9" after talking to mtg90. He said this would lower the tuning frequency of the cab. I would get more bass extension but less mid bass. BUT if I cut an inch or two off the ports it would bring back the tune to stock and I would gain the bass extension without a loss in mid bass.

Everything is cut, I just need to glue up tonight. The top and bottom are 1" thick because that's all I had
Say there, @jvphotog , I notice you have what looks to be a Chane A2.X there for current center. How do you like it? I'm interested to hear how the 88 special does as an upgrade.
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post #13 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Utopianemo View Post
Say there, @jvphotog , I notice you have what looks to be a Chane A2.X there for current center. How do you like it? I'm interested to hear how the 88 special does as an upgrade.
Yup! It was a clear improvement over the cheaper Polk I had in there but it just won't keep up with my Cinema-10s or VBSS. Maybe its my 80w Denon x1000 powering it but it would distort if I listened to things at high levels. I know it wasn't made to be a HT speaker. I think its a great speaker for the price.... we'll see! Im also excited to hear the difference!
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post #14 of 81 Old 05-23-2019, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Box is done, wanted to mount the crossover before I put the front on. This thing is about a million times easier than the Cinemas
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post #15 of 81 Old 05-24-2019, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Hate waiting for things to dry...
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post #16 of 81 Old 05-24-2019, 11:47 AM
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looking good!
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post #17 of 81 Old 05-24-2019, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jvphotog View Post
It was really the only DIY center option for me...and it just happens to fit inside my media cabinet. Plus it usually gets excellent reviews. It should compliment the 2 Cinema-10s I just finished. Parts got delivered today!
That is my situation, as well. I went with the 88 as a beginning point with DIYSG. You can search my build thread from a couple of years back. I tested it first in room, and was extremely impressed. Placing in the media cabinet has some influence, and there are things not to do with it in there, and things you definitely want to do to get the most from it. Upon release of the HTM-12, those became my L/R mains. You can see photos on my configuration page.

It's great you reached out to the designer. I love that he gave you info to basically enable you to "improve" it. It does roll off a bit higher than we might like, but I do have mine crossed at 80Hz. The HTM-12s in my large room are crossed at 60Hz. Regarding "the xo @80 thing," where to cross LCRs (or any speakers) will depend on the room volume and should be done with RTA gear and listening tests. The reality is that not all speakers that are rated down to 80Hz will have strong authority there in a large room...and you can hear the difference. The HTM-12s definately have very strong authority down to at least 80Hz even in a large-ish room whether crossed at 80Hz or 60Hz. The 88 does not have quite the authority at that frequency, but it has SO much above it, that I have not for a second missed it in program content whether movie or music (Dolby Pro Logic). If you have an AVR or AVC with xt32 that supports the MEQ Editor App, you can do magic with the three and your sub(s). The Harman/Synthesis Curve can be emulated fairly easily (verifying with Dynamic EQ off)...and it sounds fantastic with then with Dynamic EQ on.

xt32 handles the boundary gain (bump at around 100Hz) of media cabinet installation effortlessly/perfectly. It's very easy to verify with RTA and ear. That bump is not narrow, so it will give you some enforcement where the 88 needs it. With xt32 and the MEQ Editor App, you'll never notice the 88 being different.

By the way, same principles apply to the Volts 10s as surrounds. The effortless authority (and crossed at 80Hz to 100 Hz) and synergy with the three DIYSG LCRs make such a system very impressive after calibration.

Food for thought. Good luck with your build!

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Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
waiting to see how this measures out-
there is of course that 'set all speakers to small and the xo @80 thing . . .'

so you'll still get a MB bump (?)
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post #18 of 81 Old 05-26-2019, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow thank you for the write up Cam Man! I am getting a umik-1 and eventually XT32 on a X3400 but that will have to wait $$$. XT32 looks really impressive!

I finished the 88 and it's now in it's home. It's a very impressive speaker! But I fear I might have done something bad, by making the cab larger. It almost seemed a bit muffled and hard to understand dialogue. I took out all of the stuffing and that helped but its still a little... muddy isn't the right word, but a little woofy? Its easier to understand dialogue if i cross it around 100hz. I wish there was some way to test ONLY the center channel without hooking it up to an external amp. Hopefully a calibrated mic will tell me what's going on.
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post #19 of 81 Old 05-26-2019, 12:10 PM
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This is where REW -free- and the calibrated mike , nominal
on your PC will help clear things up
You will want to visit /POST in the REW thread wrt set-up and so forth but use those guys for getting the ASIO4All installed using the hdmi connection

you'll be able t single out the CC and see how it and the room are co-operating

and as is also emphasized there, how it and the subs are interacting

maybe you don't have xt32 yet but you still have some to apply EQ in your AVR.

what is your avr? is there a dedicated thread?
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post #20 of 81 Old 05-26-2019, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
This is where REW -free- and the calibrated mike , nominal
on your PC will help clear things up
You will want to visit /POST in the REW thread wrt set-up and so forth but use those guys for getting the ASIO4All installed using the hdmi connection

you'll be able t single out the CC and see how it and the room are co-operating

and as is also emphasized there, how it and the subs are interacting

maybe you don't have xt32 yet but you still have some to apply EQ in your AVR.

what is your avr? is there a dedicated thread?
Oh I didnt know you could test only the center channel in REW. I thought you had to use a different program for that. But that would be awesome if REW does it. I plan to read through all that when I ever get around to buying a mic. Debating on whether or not to buy the calibrated one or just get the one from amazon.

I have a Denon x1000 so it has Audyssey and a it comes with a mic. I ran audyssey and it set all speakers to small, and crossed them at all at 40! I believe I have to turn off audyssey to make and EQ adjustments.
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post #21 of 81 Old 05-26-2019, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh, I also wanted to ask if this looks normal. I don't remember the other ones looking like this.
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post #22 of 81 Old 05-26-2019, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvphotog View Post
Wow thank you for the write up Cam Man! I am getting a umik-1 and eventually XT32 on a X3400 but that will have to wait $$$. XT32 looks really impressive!

I finished the 88 and it's now in it's home. It's a very impressive speaker! But I fear I might have done something bad, by making the cab larger. It almost seemed a bit muffled and hard to understand dialogue. I took out all of the stuffing and that helped but its still a little... muddy isn't the right word, but a little woofy? Its easier to understand dialogue if i cross it around 100hz. I wish there was some way to test ONLY the center channel without hooking it up to an external amp. Hopefully a calibrated mic will tell me what's going on.
Building the cab larger would definitely change the FR. Pull it out so it stands about 1/2 - 1" proud of the front of that cubby it's in, see if that improves the clarity.
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post #23 of 81 Old 05-26-2019, 07:03 PM
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Building the cab larger would definitely change the FR. Pull it out so it stands about 1/2 - 1" proud of the front of that cubby it's in, see if that improves the clarity.
That is exactly one of the things that you DO want to do that I mentioned. Bring it out as far as you safely can without WAF trouble. No matter what you do, that installation is going to create quite a big boost between about 90Hz to 120Hz. It might be on the order of 6dB or more. That will definitely color the sound enough to affect your perception of male dialog. And any music in that region can be overpowering to other dialog and sounds. You can tame it with EQ. If your AVR has EQ, see if you have a filter at 100Hz. Drop it 3dB and listen. Drop another 3dB and listen. Then choose for now.
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post #24 of 81 Old 05-27-2019, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jvphotog View Post
Oh, I also wanted to ask if this looks normal. I don't remember the other ones looking like this.
I test and look over all compression drivers before shipping to be sure their frequency response matches the one the designer used in the original speaker. That's just a thin circle of screen material directly behind a gasket. Almost all compression driver brands/models have that to keep things out, I'm guessing mostly bugs or things like that when used for pro audio.
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post #25 of 81 Old 05-27-2019, 08:31 AM
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...

I finished the 88 and it's now in it's home. It's a very impressive speaker! But I fear I might have done something bad, by making the cab larger. It almost seemed a bit muffled and hard to understand dialogue. I took out all of the stuffing and that helped but its still a little... muddy isn't the right word, but a little woofy? Its easier to understand dialogue if i cross it around 100hz. I wish there was some way to test ONLY the center channel without hooking it up to an external amp. Hopefully a calibrated mic will tell me what's going on.
These pro woofers can sound a little congested at first. Give it some break in time and see if gets better
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post #26 of 81 Old 05-28-2019, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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That is exactly one of the things that you DO want to do that I mentioned. Bring it out as far as you safely can without WAF trouble. No matter what you do, that installation is going to create quite a big boost between about 90Hz to 120Hz. It might be on the order of 6dB or more. That will definitely color the sound enough to affect your perception of male dialog. And any music in that region can be overpowering to other dialog and sounds. You can tame it with EQ. If your AVR has EQ, see if you have a filter at 100Hz. Drop it 3dB and listen. Drop another 3dB and listen. Then choose for now.
Wow! I had no idea putting a speaker in a cabinet would change how it sounded that much!! Maybe that's been my problem all along...
I did move it out a bit and that did seem to help. Very interesting. Now I REALLY want a new amp and mic to see what is going on. I dont think im able to manually change anything unless I turn off the Audyssey and go to manual EQ.



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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
I test and look over all compression drivers before shipping to be sure their frequency response matches the one the designer used in the original speaker. That's just a thin circle of screen material directly behind a gasket. Almost all compression driver brands/models have that to keep things out, I'm guessing mostly bugs or things like that when used for pro audio.
Well the screen definitely looks messed up compared to the drivers in the Cinema-10s - but as long as it doesnt effect the performance. Thank you

I'll order a mic today
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post #27 of 81 Old 05-28-2019, 09:41 AM
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for future reference,

you trimmed the ports . .
what was the final length?

and which mic?
just curious

OW- looking good

in the AVR you can also change the distance which may relate to the delay and better integration with the LR- and beyond

REW will be a big boost

and I want to just let folks know that @Cam Man and his input was very much appreciated "back in the day"
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post #28 of 81 Old 05-28-2019, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I trimmed them a hair under 1.5". Sorry I forget what the total length is, just what I took off.

I just ordered a UMIK-1 off of Amazon, says I'll get it on Thursday.

Im really curious to check out the boost that @Cam Man mentions. So, if I get the mic and use REW should I adjust everything using the manual EQ and turn off my Denon Audyssey??
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post #29 of 81 Old 05-28-2019, 10:11 AM
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the answer, you know, is . . .

it depends

while it does seem like more "now what!",
keep a notebook for your REW work as you change things, each sweep and changes, etc.
It's a "road map" of progress (or not)

once REW is co-operating, you'll get plenty of 'eyebrow exercise" postulating "what if?"
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post #30 of 81 Old 05-28-2019, 10:27 AM
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@asarose247 What do you do to keep track of REW things — do you have an example of how you've kept REW notebooks? I’m interested in the organizational scheme(s). Like others, I’ve been down the REW rabbit hole enough to know it gets overwhelming to keep relevant info organized and easily accessible.
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