Subwoofer Rut - Help! Polk DSW 660 Pro vs DIY - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 06:32 AM
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12x11 room would rock with a pair of 18's up front.

You've got room behind the chairs for a lilwrecker. It'd be a lot cooler if you had that too

Honestly, coming from the Polk to a pair of well designed DIY 18s is going to blow your mind in that sized space, even if it's not a closed off room. Is it open to another part of the house, or able to be sealed?
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post #32 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 07:00 AM
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With slight modifications, you could have two sets of two VBSS's. Two up front, two in the rear for more even bass throughout the room. Plus you could build all four for well under 1K, higher grade plywood for a nicer finish if you would like. They are about 31.5" H, 23.5" W and 20.5" deep (with 1/2" for recessed woofer). I use two in a 1500 CFT space and am not wanting in the bass department (other than wanting two more .
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post #33 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 07:11 AM
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Since you are in Canada have you looked at Mach 5? You could try messaging them, the UXL-18 would do very nicely in a cyclops up front

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post #34 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 08:01 AM
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Coming from your polk, anything DIY will sound amazing. Since you've lived with it this long, you are probably not much of basshead. Please let me know if this in incorrect because coming from a single 12 to ANY 18" sub will be night and day. One sub would probably be plenty for you but two would offer better uniformity in the room. It would be helpful to know at what level you normally watch movies as well. Is that near reference level or are you -10 to -20 on the dial? If you aren't pushing your system to the limits, you don't need to go as crazy on subs. And one final question is what is your budget for this project? Sorry if I missed it but I didn't see one listed.

2 V.B.S.S. is a great option. It will give you plenty of bass for cheap but will struggle a bit on the low end at high volumes due to the limited excursion. Another good option is the marty sub design with an ultimax 18" or new Fi HT1. A marty cube or bigger would be a great option and give you better low end since they have much higher excursion. Note that any ported sub will require either a inuke that has built in DSP or the purchase of a miniDSP so you can protect the sub from frequencies below the tuning. If you find the box sizes too large for your space, dropping back to a 15" PA380 in the VBSS line or the ultimax 15" would still give you a substantial amount of bass. There are plenty of people on here that would help you amend the box sizes to accommodate those options.

Nice room BTW.
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post #35 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Rowan611 View Post

DIY is a community about exploring alternative solutions to problems. Not looking down on those solutions.


It's a joke. Have some fun.
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post #36 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 09:01 AM
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It's a joke. Have some fun.


I think you need to learn how to use emoticons then

Didn’t come off as a joke. I’m sure I’m not the only one who didn’t take it as such.



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post #37 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 09:20 AM
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I think you need to learn how to use emoticons then

Didn’t come off as a joke. I’m sure I’m not the only one who didn’t take it as such.

To get serious, the flexible platform thing is something I agree with. My home theater is above a basement on a standard 2x10 floor and it provides quite a lot of flex. It makes a lot of sense to replicate the same thing with a false floor or riser if you have a more rigid floor.



Also, being serious again: IB subwoofer *really* don't require any calculations if the backwave is exiting into a large area like a basement or attic. I REALLY do think they are the best type of subwoofer if the space can handle it and I don't think they are mentioned as options nearly enough.
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post #38 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 09:25 AM
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To get serious, the flexible platform thing is something I agree with. My home theater is above a basement on a standard 2x10 floor and it provides quite a lot of flex. It makes a lot of sense to replicate the same thing with a false floor or riser if you have a more rigid floor.



Also, being serious again: IB subwoofer *really* don't require any calculations if the backwave is exiting into a large area like a basement or attic. I REALLY do think they are the best type of subwoofer if the space can handle it and I don't think they are mentioned as options nearly enough.


I agree with you on the IB. It’s actually the direction I’d like to go when I remodel my current room (it’ll be split into two separate rooms and I’ll build a storage area for the IB to go.

I wish mine was on a floating floor. Lol. But, the riser is pretty cool man. Lots of fun, as I’m sure your room is.


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post #39 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
Since you are in Canada have you looked at Mach 5? You could try messaging them, the UXL-18 would do very nicely in a cyclops up front
Also look at the 21" FTW LTE from Mach 5 if the UXL 18 is too expensive. I don't know if the IXL-18 is available (may have to call Mach 5 to find out) as it might be an alternative to the UM18 (it is pretty expensive to ship, especially with the exchange rate). If your looking for the 460 for the VBSS, it can be found in Canada from solen.ca (about $150, not including shipping?).

Definitely not as many reasonably priced options for us in Canada!

Darren.
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post #40 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
Coming from your polk, anything DIY will sound amazing. Since you've lived with it this long, you are probably not much of basshead. Please let me know if this in incorrect because coming from a single 12 to ANY 18" sub will be night and day. One sub would probably be plenty for you but two would offer better uniformity in the room. It would be helpful to know at what level you normally watch movies as well. Is that near reference level or are you -10 to -20 on the dial? If you aren't pushing your system to the limits, you don't need to go as crazy on subs. And one final question is what is your budget for this project? Sorry if I missed it but I didn't see one listed.

2 V.B.S.S. is a great option. It will give you plenty of bass for cheap but will struggle a bit on the low end at high volumes due to the limited excursion. Another good option is the marty sub design with an ultimax 18" or new Fi HT1. A marty cube or bigger would be a great option and give you better low end since they have much higher excursion. Note that any ported sub will require either a inuke that has built in DSP or the purchase of a miniDSP so you can protect the sub from frequencies below the tuning. If you find the box sizes too large for your space, dropping back to a 15" PA380 in the VBSS line or the ultimax 15" would still give you a substantial amount of bass. There are plenty of people on here that would help you amend the box sizes to accommodate those options.

Nice room BTW.[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Trust me I’ve been well aware of the issues in the bass department for awhile! It’s finally time to sort this out. Typically volume for me is -25 to -20 below reference, so nothing too crazy. Although I might go louder if I actually got some decent LFE for once. VBSS will probably fit my needs both for budget, size, and expectations.

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Quote:
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Since you are in Canada have you looked at Mach 5? You could try messaging them, the UXL-18 would do very nicely in a cyclops up front [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Also look at the 21" FTW LTE from Mach 5 if the UXL 18 is too expensive. I don't know if the IXL-18 is available (may have to call Mach 5 to find out) as it might be an alternative to the UM18 (it is pretty expensive to ship, especially with the exchange rate). If your looking for the 460 for the VBSS, it can be found in Canada from solen.ca (about $150, not including shipping?).

Definitely not as many reasonably priced options for us in Canada!

Darren.
Yeah I’ve been in touch with Solen, I’ve bought a multi room amp from them before. Canada is great but sucks for Auto Parts and Speaker Components!
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post #41 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 02:25 PM
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It's amazing how LFE can change your listening level. For me it's just more enveloping though and you can really get into the movie. Nothing bad ever came from subwoofers, except maybe neighbors complaining. I'm not a bass head but I do like a house curve. The best part is going to the movie theater and saying "are the subwoofers on?"
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post #42 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok I thought I had it narrowed down to two VBSS, but after doing more measuring my head is starting to hurt.

I simply don't have room to put two standard sized VBSS units in the front, or even one on it's side. The Center speaker can't go any higher without getting in the way of the TV, which is arguably too high already.

1. Is it possible modify the VBSS to be no wider than 20 inches(so 20 inches tall on it's side) do I simply make it taller by the exact same amount? This is assuming I keep the depth the same, but the ports would be closer to the side walls of the interior of the cabinet.

2. Does the port position matter as much? Can I "squash" the sub and make it very long and short?

I have been reading the forums looking for examples that others have tried that would be a fit for my needs, no luck yet. If I can modify one to fit under the Center Speaker, I can fit another in the back behind the recliners and I believe that would be enough to knock my socks off during movie night.

If I can't find a good solution I'll probably have to go smaller than 18", but I did kind of have my heart set on 15HZ..
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post #43 of 81 Old 05-22-2019, 10:33 PM
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Why not build several sealed 15s and place them upfront and in the back? I know the desire to go to a 18. But, in your room 4 sealed 15s would work great. Or, even 4 sealed 18s. I have nothing against ported subs...but sealed can be built smaller and go lower without needing to be huge like a ported sub.


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post #44 of 81 Old 05-23-2019, 05:45 AM
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Ok I thought I had it narrowed down to two VBSS, but after doing more measuring my head is starting to hurt.

I simply don't have room to put two standard sized VBSS units in the front, or even one on it's side. The Center speaker can't go any higher without getting in the way of the TV, which is arguably too high already.

1. Is it possible modify the VBSS to be no wider than 20 inches(so 20 inches tall on it's side) do I simply make it taller by the exact same amount? This is assuming I keep the depth the same, but the ports would be closer to the side walls of the interior of the cabinet.

2. Does the port position matter as much? Can I "squash" the sub and make it very long and short?

I have been reading the forums looking for examples that others have tried that would be a fit for my needs, no luck yet. If I can modify one to fit under the Center Speaker, I can fit another in the back behind the recliners and I believe that would be enough to knock my socks off during movie night.

If I can't find a good solution I'll probably have to go smaller than 18", but I did kind of have my heart set on 15HZ..
Box size is what matters. You can make the dimensions whatever you want as long as the internal volume doesn't change. As for the ports, I would keep them at least 1/2 the port diameter away from any walls or they will start to affect the tuning.
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post #45 of 81 Old 05-23-2019, 06:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Box size is what matters. You can make the dimensions whatever you want as long as the internal volume doesn't change. As for the ports, I would keep them at least 1/2 the port diameter away from any walls or they will start to affect the tuning.
Understood, also I have been reading Port distance from the back wall internally matters as well. So I can keep the VBSS design, keep depth the same, rotate it into its side, and stretch it out.

Or this is getting too heavy of a modification and I could just put two regular sized VBSS in the back of the room and be done with it. Would a single VBSS Pair well with a smaller unit that I could place up front?

Edit: I apologize all the questions and I appreciate all the advice. It’s been so long since I’ve done DIY I seem to have forgotten everything. I built some ZDT3.5s and a ported 15” years and years ago, but it’s been awhile.
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post #46 of 81 Old 05-23-2019, 06:41 AM
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Definitely not to heavy of a modification. You can read the designers post HERE where he states that a +/- 10% change in box volume would be too noticeable.

Also, if you have the skills to build the box anyway, it can be modeled in WinISD with a slot port instead of purchasing the round ones. Slot ports can wrap around corners and give you more flexibility.

Slot Port Build

Here is an example of using two triangular ports with LTD02's stamp of approval for something different.
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post #47 of 81 Old 05-23-2019, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Definitely not to heavy of a modification. You can read the designers post HERE where he states that a +/- 10% change in box volume would be too noticeable.

Also, if you have the skills to build the box anyway, it can be modeled in WinISD with a slot port instead of purchasing the round ones. Slot ports can wrap around corners and give you more flexibility.

Slot Port Build

Here is an example of using two triangular ports with LTD02's stamp of approval for something different.
Well if that’s the case then I’m sure I can make some minor modifications. Looks like I’ll be teaching myself how to use WinISD. Essentially I need a VBSS that is only 20” tall or 20” wide but placed on its side. Not a huge difference, as it’s only 23.5 wide to begin with. A bit narrower is all I need.
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post #48 of 81 Old 05-23-2019, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinMRoach View Post
Well if that’s the case then I’m sure I can make some minor modifications. Looks like I’ll be teaching myself how to use WinISD. Essentially I need a VBSS that is only 20” tall or 20” wide but placed on its side. Not a huge difference, as it’s only 23.5 wide to begin with. A bit narrower is all I need.
Here is mtg90's driver file for the PA460. This should speed things up quite a bit. Entering the driver parameters can be frustrating. Change the extension to .wdr and you can use it in WinISD.
Attached Files
File Type: txt 00 WT3 Dayton PA460-8 #2.txt (879 Bytes, 5 views)
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post #49 of 81 Old 05-23-2019, 08:40 AM
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Well if that’s the case then I’m sure I can make some minor modifications. Looks like I’ll be teaching myself how to use WinISD. Essentially I need a VBSS that is only 20” tall or 20” wide but placed on its side. Not a huge difference, as it’s only 23.5 wide to begin with. A bit narrower is all I need.

20W x 37.5H x 20D gets you there (lay it on it's side). This is the volume calculator I use: https://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxcalcs.asp
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post #50 of 81 Old 05-23-2019, 10:27 AM
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Looks like I’ll be teaching myself how to use WinISD.
The spirit of DIY right there. Get after it!

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post #51 of 81 Old 05-23-2019, 10:33 AM
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Make sure to keep the end of the port the same distance from a baffle/piece of wood to keep the effective port length.
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post #52 of 81 Old 05-23-2019, 11:04 AM
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Make sure to keep the end of the port the same distance from a baffle/piece of wood to keep the effective port length.
If he is switching to a slot port, it will be completely different anyways. None of the previous dimensions will matter as they were based on using 2 circular ports. WinISD will will tell you how long to make the port based on the width and height you enter and the tuning you select. One thing to remember is to subtract the width of the center bracing in the port. Usually that is .75 assuming you use 3/4" mdf.
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post #53 of 81 Old 05-23-2019, 12:17 PM
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Sounds like 8 jbl 12's would work very well for this room. they dont take up that much space @ 1.5-2cu ft per sub.

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post #54 of 81 Old 05-23-2019, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks to everyone for all the advice. I’m going to go with two slightly modified slotted VBSS. One in the front under the center channel no higher than 20”, which is about as small as I can do with an 18” driver anyways. I’ll make an identical matching speaker for behind the recliners. In a month or two I’ll create a build thread and track my progress,

Cheers!
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post #55 of 81 Old 05-23-2019, 01:50 PM
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Good luck with your project!

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post #56 of 81 Old 05-24-2019, 08:21 AM
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A pair of modded VBSS? That should be a decent setup...
Looking forward to following the build!
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post #57 of 81 Old 05-29-2019, 04:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Before I start a build thread I’m hoping I can get some input/help with my modified VBSS design. I only had an hour to play with SketchUp this morning but this is a rough idea. Apologies for the crude drawing

Driver PA460-8

- A shorter VBSS with slotted ports. - Very close internal volume to original design - 20HZ tune with both ports open, about 15 with one port blocked

I messed up a bit on the SketchUp drawing, the dimensions should be,

39.5” wide
19.5” tall
19” deep

Two slotted ports, essentially I tried to take the original Slotted VBSS 20HZ design and just move the ports to either side for WAF.

Two ports at:

11” wide
1.5” tall
24.75” long(this is confusing me a bit, had some issues nailing it down in WinISD)

Thanks for any advice
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post #58 of 81 Old 05-29-2019, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinMRoach View Post
Before I start a build thread I’m hoping I can get some input/help with my modified VBSS design. I only had an hour to play with SketchUp this morning but this is a rough idea. Apologies for the crude drawing

Driver PA460-8

- A shorter VBSS with slotted ports. - Very close internal volume to original design - 20HZ tune with both ports open, about 15 with one port blocked

I messed up a bit on the SketchUp drawing, the dimensions should be,

39.5” wide
19.5” tall
19” deep

Two slotted ports, essentially I tried to take the original Slotted VBSS 20HZ design and just move the ports to either side for WAF.

Two ports at:

11” wide
1.5” tall
24.75” long(this is confusing me a bit, had some issues nailing it down in WinISD)

Thanks for any advice

What is the confusing part with WinISD?

Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
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post #59 of 81 Old 05-29-2019, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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What is the confusing part with WinISD?
I just need some help nailing down the vent calculations.

If I take the original VBSS design, I should theoretically should be able to keep the vent sizes the same, as long as I’m close to the same Internal Volume. Where I’m a bit confused is within WinISD how do I model “plugging” one of the ports to get 15HZ?
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post #60 of 81 Old 05-29-2019, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinMRoach View Post
I just need some help nailing down the vent calculations.

If I take the original VBSS design, I should theoretically should be able to keep the vent sizes the same, as long as I’m close to the same Internal Volume. Where I’m a bit confused is within WinISD how do I model “plugging” one of the ports to get 15HZ?
You would need to change the number of ports to 1 and the tuning to 15. The port length should be about the same with those changes. Also remember that port length is calculated down the middle of the port. Someone can check my math but I come up with an effective port length of 25.5.

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Last edited by Jedi940; 05-29-2019 at 09:56 AM.
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