21" Slim Nearfield 7.8cu ft Build with LaVoce SAN214.50 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 10:19 AM
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100 MPH redo Do you want the CAD file?
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post #32 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Think I'm going to move the driver down closer to the port. I've heard you don't want it right up against the bottom port wall, but thinking maybe 8" from the port edge where I'll start the outer driver hole to keep it right behind the MLP for how I'll have it oriented laying down.

I missed this^ lol.

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post #33 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 11:56 AM
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Is this more in line with what you are thinking?
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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #34 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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21" Slim Nearfield 7.8cu ft Build with LaVoce SAN214.50

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Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
Is this more in line with what you are thinking?


Thanks that’s perfect, you didn’t have to redo it but that’ll make a great pic for the first post!

This little guy came in today, funny how much it dwarfs a gallon Duratex:

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post #35 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Thanks that’s perfect, you didn’t have to redo it but that’ll make a great pic for the first post!

This little guy came in today, funny how much it dwarfs a gallon Duratex:

Time for some saw dust! You will probably finish up before I do. Changing stuff in the CAD software is pretty easy, moving the cutout is mostly just changing the Z axis on the part height.
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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #36 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
Not much tweaking has been done other than adding a half inch of height to the vent and taking it off the front, and the rear chamber grew a lot from 266l.
Just as I thought, it's not a horn. You modeled an Offset Driver BP6 Parallel enclosure.

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post #37 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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21" Slim Nearfield 7.8cu ft Build with LaVoce SAN214.50

A little scale for perspective, she’s a good size indeed but so light at only 33lbs, those Neo magnets really shed the weight of ferrite!

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
Subs: PSA V1801 x2, DIY: 18" RSS460HO, 15" RSS390HO x2, BOSS w/JBL CX1200 x6
MA’s: Crowson Tech x2
Processing: Denon X4200, NU6KDSP, 3KDSP
Video: Epson 3700; Screen: Silver Ticket 106" High Contrast

Last edited by Sekosche; 06-19-2019 at 12:43 PM.
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post #38 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Looks awesome and thanks! I did some final predictions for box size using a 3.5" port height, port length comes in around 40" after subtracting 11" off the WinISD estimate using the roughly 50% off the port width John mentioned to keep tuning the same with a slot port. Final cab should be 72" x 24" x 16" which is great to keep it just 2" deeper than my current boxes.
Your pic is still reflecting a 21" wide port. It needs to be 22.5".

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post #39 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 12:32 PM
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Nice driver!
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post #40 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
Just as I thought, it's not a horn. You modeled an Offset Driver BP6 Parallel enclosure.

John considered it a non flared quarter wave resonator IIRC, I generally do not argue with him too much when it comes to this sort of thing, but I am interested in how the conclusion is reached on the 6th order parallel OD arrangement?

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post #41 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 12:37 PM
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Do you have 15" woofers somewhere? Stick the 21" up to them, it makes them look tiny
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post #42 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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21" Slim Nearfield 7.8cu ft Build with LaVoce SAN214.50

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Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
Your pic is still reflecting a 21" wide port. It needs to be 22.5".

That pic is from the build my Marty excel file I made, it includes two port rails for the estimated final product on the port design and it is locked to always be 3” less than the total box width to account for the four 0.75” pieces, two walls and two rails. This is why I asked if you go by internal port width including the port rails or not when modeling; I wasn’t sure which is correct, but the physical port volume can’t take up space where there’s wood so just assumed you subtract the port rails for calculating port width.

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
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MA’s: Crowson Tech x2
Processing: Denon X4200, NU6KDSP, 3KDSP
Video: Epson 3700; Screen: Silver Ticket 106" High Contrast

Last edited by Sekosche; 06-19-2019 at 12:48 PM.
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post #43 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
That pic is from the build my Marty excel file I made, it includes two port rails for the estimated final product on the port design and it is locked to always be 3” less than the total box width to account for the four 0.75” pieces, two walls and two rails. This is why I asked if you go by internal port width including the port rails or not when modeling; I wasn’t sure which is correct, but the physical port volume can’t take up space where there’s wood so just assumed you subtract the port rails.

What do you have for inputs? This is what I used came out with a 19.8Hz tune first port resonance looks like it starts a little over 133Hz. @BP1Fanatic
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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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Last edited by Red Five; 06-19-2019 at 12:52 PM.
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post #44 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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21" Slim Nearfield 7.8cu ft Build with LaVoce SAN214.50

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Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
Do you have 15" woofers somewhere? Stick the 21" up to them, it makes them look tiny

None that I can get to easily for a pic, I have a pair of 15” behind the couch which is what this is replacing. And sadly the driver came in the day before I go back to work for a long 8 day stretch, so no sawdust any time soon; but then I get a week off so will hopefully start by the end of next week or the following Monday. Weekends aren’t good times for me to spend building though because of family activities, so I usually do projects Monday-Friday when I’m off.
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Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
Subs: PSA V1801 x2, DIY: 18" RSS460HO, 15" RSS390HO x2, BOSS w/JBL CX1200 x6
MA’s: Crowson Tech x2
Processing: Denon X4200, NU6KDSP, 3KDSP
Video: Epson 3700; Screen: Silver Ticket 106" High Contrast

Last edited by Sekosche; 06-19-2019 at 01:03 PM.
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post #45 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
None that I can get to easily for a pic, I have a pair of 15” behind the couch which is what this is replacing. And sadly the driver came in the day I go back to work for a long 8 day stretch, so no sawdust any time soon; but then I get a week off so will hopefully start by the end of next week or the following Monday. Weekends aren’t good times for me to spend building though because of family activities, so I usually do projects Monday-Friday when I’m off.

I can maybe get a half hour here maybe an hour there to work on it. That is nice you have a long stretch off, I have weekends, but that gets full of running around doing stuff with family.
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post #46 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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What do you have for inputs? This is what I used came out with a 19.8Hz tune first port resonance looks like it starts a little over 133Hz. @BP1Fanatic

That’s almost exactly what I show in WinISD, a port resonance of 132.1 with a 19Hz tune in 10cu ft and 3.5” port height and 22.5” port width. Using a 21” port width kicks it up to 142.25Hz 1st resonance and kicks it just a hair over 17m/s for velocity with my EQ unless I add another 0.25” to the port height which is fine.

Which port width is correct for modeling from an outer dimension of 24” with two port rails?

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
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post #47 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 01:05 PM
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This is what my Hornresp sim looks like. I have a 2nd Order HFP at 19Hz on, feeding it 1500 watts, so that should be in the ballpark for peak 1ms power with a Nuke\NX. This is based on the information from the Excel calculator for chamber volume, port length and cross-sectional area of the port.
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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #48 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
That’s almost exactly what I show in WinISD, a port resonance of 132.1 with a 19Hz tune in 10cu ft and 3.5” port height and 22.5” port width. Using a 21” port width kicks it up to 142.25Hz 1st resonance and kicks it just a hair over 17m/s for velocity with my EQ unless I add another 0.25” to the port height which is fine.

Which port width is correct for modeling from an outer dimension of 24” with two port rails?

Change your unit to metric liters and centimeters then look at the input screen shot from Hornresp. You have an opening with a cross-sectional area of 474.19cm2 by my math and a box volume of 283.17liters unit converter 40 inches is 101.60 centimeters. Vrc = volume of chamber, Ap = area of port, Lpt = length of port Lrc = length of rear chamber, it will not do much unless the front to back of the chamber is really small or does stuff outside of the passband.
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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #49 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
That pic is from the build my Marty excel file I made, it includes two port rails for the estimated final product on the port design and it is locked to always be 3” less than the total box width to account for the four 0.75” pieces, two walls and two rails. This is why I asked if you go by internal port width including the port rails or not when modeling; I wasn’t sure which is correct, but the physical port volume can’t take up space where there’s wood so just assumed you subtract the port rails for calculating port width.
Got it, double 0.75" sides = 21" wide port!
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post #50 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
This is what my Hornresp sim looks like. I have a 2nd Order HFP at 19Hz on it feeding 1500 watts, so that should be in the ballpark for peak 1ms power with a Nuke\NX. This is based on the information from the Excel calculator for chamber volume, port length and cross-sectional area of the port.
Edit: upon closer inspection in WinISD, the driver does only dip barely below 8ohm not 6ohm.

Well, I was going to set my limiter at 1,000 watts which is what I did this build and EQ for, but I guess I could just leave it off. I noticed the impedance does dip down around 6ohm in the ULF range but I’m sure driver efficiency drops quite a bit there too. Maybe I’ll be giving it a bit more power than I thought for the nominal 8ohm rating of these drivers with an iNuke 6K. If that’s the case, I should probably go with a 4” port but that reduces box volume 0.4 cubic feet, which is why I was hoping to get by with a 3.5” or so height. Dang it, no free lunch!

This is only my 4th sub build so still some gaping holes in my knowledge, thanks for helping!

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
Subs: PSA V1801 x2, DIY: 18" RSS460HO, 15" RSS390HO x2, BOSS w/JBL CX1200 x6
MA’s: Crowson Tech x2
Processing: Denon X4200, NU6KDSP, 3KDSP
Video: Epson 3700; Screen: Silver Ticket 106" High Contrast

Last edited by Sekosche; 06-19-2019 at 02:07 PM.
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post #51 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Well, I was going to set my limiter at 1,000 watts which is what I did this build and EQ for, but I guess I could just leave it off. I noticed the impedance does dip down around 6ohm in the ULF range but I’m sure driver efficiency drops quite a bit there too. Maybe I’ll be giving it a bit more power than I thought for the nominal 8ohm rating of these drivers with an iNuke 6K. If that’s the case, I should probably go with a 4” port but that reduces box volume 0.4 cubic feet, which is why I was hoping to get by with a 3.5” or so height. Dang it, no free lunch!

This is only my 4th sub build so still some gaping holes in my knowledge, thanks for helping!

Not doing too bad! Yeah if you bump the port height up a few things start happening that really suck. Losing volume, extending of the port losing more volume, the first port resonance comes down with the added port length. What you get, lower peak air velocity. To cancel out the longer port situation the box needs to get bigger so it is shorter again. Somewhere there is a happy medium where you can live with compromises
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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #52 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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21" Slim Nearfield 7.8cu ft Build with LaVoce SAN214.50

I’m hoping a quarter inch for port calculations or small changes in overall box volume isn’t going to make a noticeable difference in my case anyway, as it barely effects velocity and total output. I went from wanting to do a 6-7cu ft cab to 10 so this is my stopping point. I could actually make it a bit longer since it’s laying down behind the couch, but I have an electrical outlet near one end I don’t want to block.

I’m sticking with the final outer dimensions of 72” x 24” x 16” and a 3.5” port height and 40” port length, but I haven’t even picked up the MDF anyway and won’t begin for at least a week, have all the parts on hand but a few of things I can grab at the store.

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
Subs: PSA V1801 x2, DIY: 18" RSS460HO, 15" RSS390HO x2, BOSS w/JBL CX1200 x6
MA’s: Crowson Tech x2
Processing: Denon X4200, NU6KDSP, 3KDSP
Video: Epson 3700; Screen: Silver Ticket 106" High Contrast

Last edited by Sekosche; 06-19-2019 at 01:33 PM.
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post #53 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 01:34 PM
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I’m hoping a quarter inch for port calculations or small changes in overall box volume isn’t going to make a noticeable difference in my case anyway, as it barely effects velocity and total output. I think I’m sticking with the final outer dimensions of 72” x 24” x 16”, but I haven’t even picked up the MDF anyway and won’t begin for at least a week, have all the parts on hand but a few of things I can grab at the store.

You have some time to think about it more. My $.02 it is looking good, the only thing I would maybe think about is getting the first port resonance closer to 160Hz. To do that with the box dimensions would require adding more air velocity which might put you closer to 1000 watts peak, so about a 2dbish reduction in potential peak output from 1500watts, but it is near field I am not sure how often you can reach peak? I have not done anything near field yet. 2.75" port height would bring the resonance up over 160, air velocity would hit 26.6m/s with a 1000 watts.
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post #54 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 01:47 PM
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What do you have for inputs? This is what I used came out with a 19.8Hz tune first port resonance looks like it starts a little over 133Hz. @BP1Fanatic
Updated from a 7.8ft3 to 10ft3 BR at 21" wide internally.
Our box depths don't match.
Internally, I have 69"H x 21"W x 11.93"D.
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Darn it, I didn't account for the 1.5" speaker plate. Vtc should be 6328.42cc's instead of 3164.21.

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post #56 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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21" Slim Nearfield 7.8cu ft Build with LaVoce SAN214.50

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
You have some time to think about it more. My $.02 it is looking good, the only thing I would maybe think about is getting the first port resonance closer to 160Hz. To do that with the box dimensions would require adding more air velocity which might put you closer to 1000 watts peak, so about a 1db reduction in potential peak output from 1500watts, but it is near field I am not sure how often you can reach peak? I have not done anything near field yet. 2.75" port height would bring the resonance up over 160, air velocity would hit 26.6m/s with a 1000 watts.

Both my current nearfield cabs are around 140Hz 1st resonance John helped design and haven’t heard anything bad yet. I’m not really sure what port resonance sounds like to be honest, guess it would be more localized? I’ve been modeling everything with a PEQ of +3dB at 19Hz with a second order HPF so that does change things a bit. I’m showing a 167Hz resonance with a 3” port height and 21” width but velocity goes up to 21m/s since box volume would then be 10.7cu ft with the smaller port.

Anyone know which is more important for a nearfield setup, keeping port velocity down or 1st resonance an octave above crossover? I don’t really have a clue, but I know my three slot port subs have no noticeable port noise at all, but they’re all 1-2m/s below the speed of sound at max output. I would be more concerned at quieter listening volumes for family movie nights around -20 or -25MV if 1st port resonance was audible, that would be bothersome.

Both the driver and port will be right behind me, but I think port chuffing would bother me the most because I listen to a lot of ULF movies with ULF movies with BEQ.

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
Subs: PSA V1801 x2, DIY: 18" RSS460HO, 15" RSS390HO x2, BOSS w/JBL CX1200 x6
MA’s: Crowson Tech x2
Processing: Denon X4200, NU6KDSP, 3KDSP
Video: Epson 3700; Screen: Silver Ticket 106" High Contrast

Last edited by Sekosche; 06-19-2019 at 02:33 PM.
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post #57 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 02:30 PM
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@lmidgitd What did you do for your near fields for 1st port resonance or which trade off would you prefer?

John designed the Stormbreaker I think with a 141Hz 1st port resonance. That is far field and you have to be close to the sub at certain angles to pick up any texture. I have been playing bass guitar for 10+ years, I can be picky about stuff. I set a LPF at 48db curve somewhere over 120Hz to roll it off fast.
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post #58 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 03:25 PM
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Talking

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John considered it a non flared quarter wave resonator IIRC, I generally do not argue with him too much when it comes to this sort of thing, but I am interested in how the conclusion is reached on the 6th order parallel OD arrangement?
1. The enclosure was modeled with OD function in HR.
2. There are no positive flares with the ports.
3. Vtc & Atc = front volume.
4. S1, S2, L12 = front NON FLARED port.
5. Vrc & Lrc = rear volume.
6. Apt & Lpt = rear NON FLARED port.

All that info = ODBP6P!

Also, quarter wave resonators can be modeled with the TH function in HR. Look up Super Planar and ROAR subwoofers on diyaudio.com.
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post #59 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 03:40 PM
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My T-TQWT is a quarter wave resonator.
It was modeled with TH function in HR.
Basically, it's a negative flare tapped HORN.
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post #60 of 197 Old 06-19-2019, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Too much midbass for nearfield? Playing with more EQ curves for fun, can't believe this is only with 1,000w and within the limits for this cab. I know midbass is much easier to obtain, but man, these drivers are nuts!

It's going to be a long week waiting to build...
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Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
Subs: PSA V1801 x2, DIY: 18" RSS460HO, 15" RSS390HO x2, BOSS w/JBL CX1200 x6
MA’s: Crowson Tech x2
Processing: Denon X4200, NU6KDSP, 3KDSP
Video: Epson 3700; Screen: Silver Ticket 106" High Contrast
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