Need help designing a 6th or 8th order Bandpass or a horn - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 33 Old 06-20-2019, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Need help designing a 6th or 8th order Bandpass or a horn

Like the subject title states, I need help designing a 6th or 8th order bandpass enclosure or a horn of some sort. I will build 2 of them using the B&C 21DS115-8 speakers. I would like to have it no wider than 74”, no deeper than 27”, and no taller than 28”. But I would like to keep the height under 26” if possible so I have more choices for a horizontal center channel.
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post #2 of 33 Old 06-20-2019, 09:59 PM
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Red face

I'm on my phone now. I modeled your T-TQWT on my home laptop. I'll try to post it this Friday evening.

Here is a T-TQWT that I did in another 21DS115-8 thread. It fits within your criteria. This 1 was done on my work laptop.
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post #3 of 33 Old 06-20-2019, 10:02 PM
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Here is the text from my post.

"Bare in mind, you have to use THREE 0.75" (2.25") speaker plates because of the 8" throat and 21DS115-8 has a 10.04" mounting depth. The horn is 132.32". Single fold internal = 66.16"H x 22"W x 13.9"D."

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post #4 of 33 Old 06-21-2019, 02:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Need help designing a 6th or 8th order Bandpass or a horn

Quote:
Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
I'm on my phone now. I modeled your T-TQWT on my home laptop. I'll try to post it this Friday evening.



Here is a T-TQWT that I did in another 21DS115-8 thread. It fits within your criteria. This 1 was done on my work laptop.


I would love to some day understand what all these graphs are saying but I don’t know what they mean.

What is a “T-TQWT”?

My goals for this enclosure are:
-To be efficient in frequencies 18-80hz.
-Handle 1700watts RMS each sub.
-Do well for 30%music and 70%movies.(I always thought the sub should be great at both since there’s a lot of music in movies.)

I plan on building for LCR, either quad ported 893s or the stock ported 1099s and using either 4x Volt 6s or 8s for 2x for the front heights and 2x for the surrounds that will be mounted on the sides near ceiling height angled down.

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post #5 of 33 Old 06-21-2019, 06:43 AM
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I have been playing with the models more, 8th order band pass blows up displacement/excursion close to 1200 watts. A lot of things can fit in that form factor you have listed. Next question is how low can you crossover into the rest of your system if looking at horns? You want to avoid resonance higher in the bandwidth if possible.

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post #6 of 33 Old 06-21-2019, 08:05 AM
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Is the equipment not located well behind the wall or have you not gotten a chance to look?

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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #7 of 33 Old 06-21-2019, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Need help designing a 6th or 8th order Bandpass or a horn

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We move into the new home in 2weeks. Not enough room behind the shared wall to place speakers. HVAC and water heater directly behind the wall.

So now at least I know I will be using the Samsung QN82Q9R TV for video.
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post #8 of 33 Old 06-21-2019, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purenv View Post
@Red Five
We move into the new home in 2weeks. Not enough room behind the shared wall to place speakers. HVAC and water heater directly behind the wall.

So now at least I know I will be using the Samsung QN82Q9R TV for video.

Are you still planning on sticking with 8 inch speakers? That will most likely determine where you end up having to crossover, I think 80Hz for 8inch woofers would be a good idea.



Skunk work stuff! The series 8th order band pass should have a flatter in room response than the parallel one I was playing with. Sensitivity should be close to the Dev LFE, you lose a couple hundred watts before excursion gets out of hand on the model, but excursion looks way better on the standard Le setting than the large voice coil setting, so power handling might be a little closer to 1500 watts looking at it again. There is also the Dev LFE vs the TH box attached.
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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #9 of 33 Old 06-21-2019, 09:44 AM
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T-TQWT = tapped tapered quarter wave tube/pipe (negative flare tapped horn).

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post #10 of 33 Old 06-21-2019, 01:34 PM
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I updated Red Five's original T-TQWT for Purenv.
I made the build easier with measurements.

Throat = 8".
Mouth = 4".
Horn length = 11ft.
Single fold internal = 25"H x 66"W X 15"D.
Single fold external = 26.5"H x 67.5"W x 16.5"D.
Speaker plate = 4 x 0.75" wood = 3".
18hz-80hz response.
20.74hz tune.
11.91ft3.

DON'T FORGET TO BRACE THE FRONT AND BACK PANELS!
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post #11 of 33 Old 06-21-2019, 02:04 PM
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Talking

Here a couple of reference pics.
Your box will be twice as tall or wide (laying on side).
I haven't done a thing to this sub since 2012, other than supply more amp!
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post #12 of 33 Old 06-21-2019, 02:05 PM
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If you look at my avatar, you can see it on the right side.

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post #13 of 33 Old 06-22-2019, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
If you look at my avatar, you can see it on the right side.


Nice.
I think after reading about 6th and 8th order and how they’re not very musical and more closely related to a one note wonder I am removing them from contention.
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post #14 of 33 Old 06-22-2019, 09:07 PM
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You need to read about tapped horns which are BP6 series tune. They are very musical. Most of the home theater built TH's are running below 60hz, hence the non-musical. Musical TH's should have a rising response from at least 30-80hz. Read about Tom Danley. As matter of fact, I modeled Vifa 10" driver on diyaudio.com. One of the major contributors to the site stated my TQWP (straight flare TH) design had more mid bass potential than his TL (BR with really long port). Let me find the link.

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post #15 of 33 Old 06-22-2019, 09:15 PM
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Here is the link.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...-spares-2.html

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post #16 of 33 Old 06-23-2019, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post


It took me to a thread that has nothing to do with anything we’ve discussed.
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post #17 of 33 Old 06-23-2019, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay so now nothing is off the table. Even considering LLT. Heck I might even try HST18 in a 4th or 6th order.
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post #18 of 33 Old 06-24-2019, 07:00 AM
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6th order enclosure = BP6P, BP6S, TH, T-TQWT, TQWP, vented FLH, BLH/RLH.

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post #19 of 33 Old 06-24-2019, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
6th order enclosure = BP6P, BP6S, TH, T-TQWT, TQWP, vented FLH, BLH/RLH.

The response on the 8th order looks really good, so resizing is an option (though time consuming). For chamber length, usually under 48 inches or greater than 10 inches keeps resonance out of the pass band?
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post #20 of 33 Old 06-24-2019, 12:46 PM
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Darn it Red Five, I forgot about checking your numbers.
Full disclosure, I haven't played with the BP8 functions yet.
The perfect BP8 enclosure to me is 8 panels total, not including bracing. If you can optimize the 3 volumes where you can use the wood thickness as the ports' lengths, keep port velocity below 10m/s, and get a response from 20-80hz, then you got the BP8 equivalent to a single fold TH in construction.

Now that I think about it, a 7 panel BP4 would be nice too!
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post #21 of 33 Old 06-24-2019, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
Darn it Red Five, I forgot about checking your numbers.

Full disclosure, I haven't played with the BP8 functions yet.

The perfect BP8 enclosure to me is 8 panels total, not including bracing. If you can optimize the 3 volumes where you can use the wood thickness as the ports' lengths, keep port velocity below 10m/s, and get a response from 20-80hz, then you got the BP8 equivalent to a single fold TH in construction.



Now that I think about it, a 7 panel BP4 would be nice too!
I would imagine that is going to be a decently sized box, though I would be curious to see what that would look like.
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post #22 of 33 Old 06-26-2019, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
Darn it Red Five, I forgot about checking your numbers.

Full disclosure, I haven't played with the BP8 functions yet.

The perfect BP8 enclosure to me is 8 panels total, not including bracing. If you can optimize the 3 volumes where you can use the wood thickness as the ports' lengths, keep port velocity below 10m/s, and get a response from 20-80hz, then you got the BP8 equivalent to a single fold TH in construction.



Now that I think about it, a 7 panel BP4 would be nice too!


Red Five has me thinking very seriously about a different form factor of his design for my space. He has been so kind in helping me understand more about the design. I still feel very inept at comprehending it all. But he’s given he a great head start. I just need to figure out how to make it fit in my space requirements.
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That BP8S he designed should be have some wicked bass!

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I won't have a chance to play around with models, if the response shape can be had using only 1.9cm port lengths on chamber 1 and 3 it would make design a lot easier. I am assuming it would require larger chambers than my design. 27x27x74 is a lot more displacement to play with
That length is magic because it is .75in or just a hole in the MDF.

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post #25 of 33 Old 06-27-2019, 05:00 PM
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Yeah it is!

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post #26 of 33 Old 06-28-2019, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Need help designing a 6th or 8th order Bandpass or a horn

Does anyone know the adjustments needed for port length when using triangular ports adjacent to the enclosure wall? I’m in the process of designing an 8th order parallel bandpass enclosure using Hornresp.
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post #27 of 33 Old 06-28-2019, 12:04 PM
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1/2 of the height x width.

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post #28 of 33 Old 06-28-2019, 12:10 PM
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Make sure the distance between the end of the port is more than a port diameter length from the back wall.

Example: 4"D port should end at least 5" from the back wall to be safe.

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post #29 of 33 Old 06-28-2019, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
Make sure the distance between the end of the port is more than a port diameter length from the back wall.



Example: 4"D port should end at least 5" from the back wall to be safe.


Right, understood. So for a triangular port you would multiply the two legs and then divide the sum in half and subtract that from the length of the port? Would you do that twice if both ends end adjacent to the walls of the enclosure?
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post #30 of 33 Old 06-28-2019, 05:25 PM
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No, you're not subtracting any port length.

If you have 4"H x 4"W x 10"L port,
then 2 triangle ports would equal
4"H x 4"W connected by a 5.66" slant x 10"L.

A^2 + B^2 = C^2.

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