B&C 21DS115-4 21 vs LaVoce SAN214.50 21 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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B&C 21DS115-4 21 vs LaVoce SAN214.50 21

got a question that I am struggling with..

I just this weekend sold my dayton HO 18s in their cyclops enclosures..also sold my VBSS..so then I had my eyes on either of these 2 subs.. been conversing with @LTD02 and he adviced the Lavoce was a pretty solid contributor...Ricci from databass confirmed this as well..

the drawback of the lavoce is that its 8ohms..i have an Inuke NX 6000... so I was pretty set to get the BNC subs..but just saw the lavoce were on sale..so with a coupon code I have..i can get 2 BNC's for about 1090 or I can get 2 Lavoce for 670.

I am notorious for being thrifty..i like saving money wherever i can and i love deals....so this comes down to the wattage i can give the lavoce...i currently have 2 enclosures being built..the net will be about 10cf and tuned to about 18....the lavoce will get estimated about 1k each...the BNC will get roughly 2k each.... so is the lavoce at 1k vs the BNC at 2k a HUGE difference? my room is fairly small and even the old subs i had were crazy loud in my room..i was pretty satisfied with it, but with this hobby, getting new gear and trying new subs is always fun...

so with giving the lavoce 1k watts...will i hear it and say that sounds weak..I need more power? maybe is there a better amp option out there that gives most its power at 4ohms bridged that could be a good option without breaking the bank? i have an account at sweetwater and can get pretty much anything there..but of course im thrifty...

so just curious on thoughts???

thanks

Chad
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Receiver : Pioneer Elite SC-95
Front Speakers: 3 DIYSG 1099's
Surround Speakers:2 DIYSG Volt 10's Atmos: 2 DIYSG Volt 6's
Subwoofers: Dual LaVoce SAN214.50 21's in Cyclops enclosures w/Inuke 6000 DSP Channel A
Nearfield: 4 B-52 SP-1804 18s w/Inuke 6000DSP Channel B

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post #2 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 09:30 AM
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Well if Ricci and LTD02 couldn't convince you the LaVoce 21 is a solid choice, then no one can. There's only a 3db difference between 1000w and 2000w, so unless you're hell-bent on getting every last db out of you setup, then get the B&C 21.
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post #3 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 10:09 AM
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Throwing a wrench in things, but Ricci also has these two drivers for sale.... They are both 8 ohms though, so that doesnt help you out compared to the others...

Quote:
Qty (2) 18 Sound 21NLW9601 8 ohm drivers. $850 takes both shipped and insured. $750 local pickup.
(link)

Spoiler!
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post #4 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 10:58 AM
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I picked up two of the B&C's a while back from PE. Used the 100 off purchases over a $1000. If that wasn't available and I could get the Lavoce for 670 I'd probably go for them. OTOH...we have psychological problems in these forums that can only be fixed with going all out. Its called FOMO....costs me some money over the years.
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post #5 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Throwing a wrench in things, but Ricci also has these two drivers for sale.... They are both 8 ohms though, so that doesnt help you out compared to the others...

(link)

Spoiler!
not a bad deal either.

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post #6 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
Well if Ricci and LTD02 couldn't convince you the LaVoce 21 is a solid choice, then no one can. There's only a 3db difference between 1000w and 2000w, so unless you're hell-bent on getting every last db out of you setup, then get the B&C 21.
valid point..im not overly picky and im not looking to break concrete like some of these guys in here..Im also on the upstairs level in a loft so my tactile is already ridiculous as is...thats why im kind of leaning towards the lavoce.
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Receiver : Pioneer Elite SC-95
Front Speakers: 3 DIYSG 1099's
Surround Speakers:2 DIYSG Volt 10's Atmos: 2 DIYSG Volt 6's
Subwoofers: Dual LaVoce SAN214.50 21's in Cyclops enclosures w/Inuke 6000 DSP Channel A
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post #7 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 11:35 AM
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The LaVoce on DB is as good as the B&C.

What is this craze about all these pro drivers anyways? The dayton UM18 hangs with both below 40hz. Is the 40-80hz difference worth the added costs? I know it eliminates the need for MBM but our systems are only as good as the low end if running flat anyways. I mean are you running 130 dB of midbass while compressing the hell out of the 10-20hz or running flat to 120dB through the whole bandwidth? I guess if your mains can't play good enough at 80hz or so but I don't get the craze.
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post #8 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
The LaVoce on DB is as good as the B&C.

What is this craze about all these pro drivers anyways? The dayton UM18 hangs with both below 40hz. Is the 40-80hz difference worth the added costs? I know it eliminates the need for MBM but our systems are only as good as the low end if running flat anyways. I mean are you running 130 dB of midbass while compressing the hell out of the 10-20hz or running flat to 120dB through the whole bandwidth? I guess if your mains can't play good enough at 80hz or so but I don't get the craze.
dunno..guess we can blame Mike @eng-399 as he basically twisted my arm... j/k

guess its just the fun part of the hobby and experimenting...I also will have 4 dayton ho 15's behind my couch...hopefully will help with some of the low end...

Chad
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post #9 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
The LaVoce on DB is as good as the B&C.



What is this craze about all these pro drivers anyways? The dayton UM18 hangs with both below 40hz. Is the 40-80hz difference worth the added costs? I know it eliminates the need for MBM but our systems are only as good as the low end if running flat anyways. I mean are you running 130 dB of midbass while compressing the hell out of the 10-20hz or running flat to 120dB through the whole bandwidth? I guess if your mains can't play good enough at 80hz or so but I don't get the craze.
Theres just something that's hard to explain on how good they sound. I replaced my um 18s in my submaximus v3s with the b&c 21ds115-4s and its hands down sounds better even down low . It took my setup from impressive to jaw dropping. I to blame @eng-399 lol after going to his g2g and hearing them in person I was sold.

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post #10 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by hd0823 View Post
Theres just something that's hard to explain on how good they sound. I replaced my um 18s in my submaximus v3s with the b&c 21ds115-4s and its hands down sounds better even down low . It took my setup from impressive to jaw dropping. I to blame @eng-399 lol after going to his g2g and hearing them in person I was sold.

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. Designing Duane’s box as type this using those drivers.
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post #11 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
. Designing Duane’s box as type this using those drivers.
Yeah there a beast of a sub I'm glad Duane went this route instead of the previous route he was going with

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post #12 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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hoping the Lavoce is that same type of beast.

Receiver : Pioneer Elite SC-95
Front Speakers: 3 DIYSG 1099's
Surround Speakers:2 DIYSG Volt 10's Atmos: 2 DIYSG Volt 6's
Subwoofers: Dual LaVoce SAN214.50 21's in Cyclops enclosures w/Inuke 6000 DSP Channel A
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post #13 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
The LaVoce on DB is as good as the B&C.

What is this craze about all these pro drivers anyways? The dayton UM18 hangs with both below 40hz. Is the 40-80hz difference worth the added costs? I know it eliminates the need for MBM but our systems are only as good as the low end if running flat anyways. I mean are you running 130 dB of midbass while compressing the hell out of the 10-20hz or running flat to 120dB through the whole bandwidth? I guess if your mains can't play good enough at 80hz or so but I don't get the craze.
I deleted the other post as there was some weird text added throughout. I will try again.

My interest in them is the lack of impact above 55Hz. I have 4-18" Fi Q's in 14.8cf enclosures tuned to 17Hz. They fall on their face above 55Hz. My mains, SEOS12 with DNA360 above AE TD12Mhave no impact crossed at 60Hz/80Hz?120Hz. From 15Hz to 55Hz or so, it is very strong. Gobs of output. I have tried moving my mains and subs. I have tried changing crossover points and utilizing the Marantz SR7012's PEQ as well as the DSP in the iNuke.

Although my interest is a bit different from the OP, we aren't looking without reason. Maybe the common sized rooms offer the same nulls and we are all looking for a solution? I really don't know. My room is huge and full of nulls I haven't figured out how to combat.
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post #14 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd0823 View Post
Theres just something that's hard to explain on how good they sound. I replaced my um 18s in my submaximus v3s with the b&c 21ds115-4s and its hands down sounds better even down low . It took my setup from impressive to jaw dropping. I to blame @eng-399 lol after going to his g2g and hearing them in person I was sold.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Your missing the biggest difference here, these pro drivers are meant for horn subs much more than the UM18. Having said that I would love to blind test these subs with people. Remember too, the UM18 is much cheaper. You can have two of them playing and now the mid bass is the same with twice the low end. I have always tried testing my subs and speakers blind leveling the playing field in costs and such. I have a small room(or did), and I could even fit 6 monster sonosubs in my theater if constructed correctly.

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post #15 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post
I deleted the other post as there was some weird text added throughout. I will try again.

My interest in them is the lack of impact above 55Hz. I have 4-18" Fi Q's in 14.8cf enclosures tuned to 17Hz. They fall on their face above 55Hz. My mains, SEOS12 with DNA360 above AE TD12Mhave no impact crossed at 60Hz/80Hz?120Hz. From 15Hz to 55Hz or so, it is very strong. Gobs of output. I have tried moving my mains and subs. I have tried changing crossover points and utilizing the Marantz SR7012's PEQ as well as the DSP in the iNuke.

Although my interest is a bit different from the OP, we aren't looking without reason. Maybe the common sized rooms offer the same nulls and we are all looking for a solution? I really don't know. My room is huge and full of nulls I haven't figured out how to combat.
I understand that, it all depends on room and where you want the crossover. I have had Fi car audio drivers as well, mine had great mid bass, the room is important too. The daytons measure very well up high just will lack some output. The costs means you can get two rather than one and it should favor the UM18 in that case. I know 21s are cool and it is nice to see some pro drivers actually have great excursion in smaller boxes, trust me I get it. The builds can vary as well, one man's perfect sub can be copied and turn out crappy for another.

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post #16 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 06:27 PM
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I would not worry too much about the 8ohm vs 4ohm thing. If you have two 214.50s in a smaller space you will break stuff before the amp stops putting out power. Kevin messed up his garage door with one 214.50 in a Devastator, just remember two are going to be a bare minimum 3db gain beyond that.


Sounds like you are committed to boxes, I am dumping my 21DS115 into this soon. You would definitely break stuff with this.
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post #17 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 07:01 PM
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B&C 21DS115-4 21 vs LaVoce SAN214.50 21

Easy. Get 4 Lavoce. You're welcome.
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post #18 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 07:22 PM
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Just some information on the cabinet...It's 12.35 ft^3 tuned to 18.5 Hz (with the LaVoce)
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post #19 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 08:09 PM
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Wow, thanks for bringing it to my attention that the Lavoce's are on sale.
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post #20 of 152 Old 07-01-2019, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Easy. Get 4 Lavoce. You're welcome.
I'm with @corradizo ! For that price it's just a small difference to get 4 for $300 more than just 2 of the BNCs...

I understand you struggling with the ohms difference but, just a quick thought....

You said you are using a 6000D right? Just some food for thought on the actual power from a bench test of that same amp:

8 Ohms:
The Behringer was happy to drive 8 Ohm loads at full power (limiter active) for 1 minute without any change in power output. With both channels driven it produced 1.17kW at 1kHz and 1.08kW at 31Hz.

4 Ohms:
The Behringer was happy to drive 1 channel at 4 Ohms with no reduction in output at 1 minute. Power output was 2.27kW at 1kHz and 2.12kW at 31Hz. This demonstrates that the amp section should drive high power into 4 Ohms without any short-term limitation. However, when driving two channels simultaneously the amp would trip its protection and shut down, needing a power on/off cycle to reset. Since the power amp part was happy to deliver the power then I conclude there is a total power limit on the supply part and rather than engaging the limiters to reduce output the amp switches off. This seems a strange decision on the part of the designer, better the show go on at reduced level if the amp finds itself producing sine-wave like power outputs. It is only fair to remember however that this is a harsh test and the amplifier was pulling 24Arms from the mains at the point it cut-out! (Note: the 12A breaker on the rear did not operate as it has a time delay, this was an internal electronic limitation).
Whether this ever occurs in a music situation is debatable and the burst tests below will demonstrate its actual ability with more realistic signals. That said it does mean it is possible to trip the amp if you abuse it into 4 Ohms, not ideal.

If the output power was kept below 1.7kW per channel then the amp would not trip. To leave a margin I left the amp running at 1.5kW per channel to see if I could get a 1 minute figure. Unfortunately after 15 seconds the circuit breaker opened, not surprising at it was drawing 22A from the mains at the time. So in the end I didn't get a 1 minute figure for 4 Ohms running but I expect it will be around the 1.2kW per channel mark as that produces a current draw of 15A which would eventually trip the breaker.


SO>>>> the AMP is not really great/stable to produce it rated power at 4ohms. So in reality your talking about a difference of about 200 to at most 500 watts difference for longer duration power which translates into what... maybe 1.5dB? IMHO, NOT WORTH THE PRICE DIFFERENCE....


Save your money OP and get the LaVoce while they are on sale for a GREAT price!
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post #21 of 152 Old 07-02-2019, 12:02 AM
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Even if the inuke cut off perfectly in half, you are only missing out on 3db of output from voltage. I wouldn't let the ohm's bother you too much.
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post #22 of 152 Old 07-02-2019, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purenv View Post
I'm with @corradizo ! For that price it's just a small difference to get 4 for $300 more than just 2 of the BNCs...

I understand you struggling with the ohms difference but, just a quick thought....

You said you are using a 6000D right? Just some food for thought on the actual power from a bench test of that same amp:

8 Ohms:
The Behringer was happy to drive 8 Ohm loads at full power (limiter active) for 1 minute without any change in power output. With both channels driven it produced 1.17kW at 1kHz and 1.08kW at 31Hz.

4 Ohms:
The Behringer was happy to drive 1 channel at 4 Ohms with no reduction in output at 1 minute. Power output was 2.27kW at 1kHz and 2.12kW at 31Hz. This demonstrates that the amp section should drive high power into 4 Ohms without any short-term limitation. However, when driving two channels simultaneously the amp would trip its protection and shut down, needing a power on/off cycle to reset. Since the power amp part was happy to deliver the power then I conclude there is a total power limit on the supply part and rather than engaging the limiters to reduce output the amp switches off. This seems a strange decision on the part of the designer, better the show go on at reduced level if the amp finds itself producing sine-wave like power outputs. It is only fair to remember however that this is a harsh test and the amplifier was pulling 24Arms from the mains at the point it cut-out! (Note: the 12A breaker on the rear did not operate as it has a time delay, this was an internal electronic limitation).
Whether this ever occurs in a music situation is debatable and the burst tests below will demonstrate its actual ability with more realistic signals. That said it does mean it is possible to trip the amp if you abuse it into 4 Ohms, not ideal.

If the output power was kept below 1.7kW per channel then the amp would not trip. To leave a margin I left the amp running at 1.5kW per channel to see if I could get a 1 minute figure. Unfortunately after 15 seconds the circuit breaker opened, not surprising at it was drawing 22A from the mains at the time. So in the end I didn't get a 1 minute figure for 4 Ohms running but I expect it will be around the 1.2kW per channel mark as that produces a current draw of 15A which would eventually trip the breaker.


SO>>>> the AMP is not really great/stable to produce it rated power at 4ohms. So in reality your talking about a difference of about 200 to at most 500 watts difference for longer duration power which translates into what... maybe 1.5dB? IMHO, NOT WORTH THE PRICE DIFFERENCE....


Save your money OP and get the LaVoce while they are on sale for a GREAT price!
i think 4 of them would tear my loft apart...unfurtunately its on the small end..I have no room for 4 of them...im thinking 2 will do the trick..and thanks for the info.

Receiver : Pioneer Elite SC-95
Front Speakers: 3 DIYSG 1099's
Surround Speakers:2 DIYSG Volt 10's Atmos: 2 DIYSG Volt 6's
Subwoofers: Dual LaVoce SAN214.50 21's in Cyclops enclosures w/Inuke 6000 DSP Channel A
Nearfield: 4 B-52 SP-1804 18s w/Inuke 6000DSP Channel B
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post #23 of 152 Old 07-02-2019, 05:26 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks for all the assistance..went ahead and placed an order for 2... with the sale price and the coupon code I used..676 for 2 21's is a phenomenal deal. not sure how long this sale lasts..but i jumped on it before it ended.

Receiver : Pioneer Elite SC-95
Front Speakers: 3 DIYSG 1099's
Surround Speakers:2 DIYSG Volt 10's Atmos: 2 DIYSG Volt 6's
Subwoofers: Dual LaVoce SAN214.50 21's in Cyclops enclosures w/Inuke 6000 DSP Channel A
Nearfield: 4 B-52 SP-1804 18s w/Inuke 6000DSP Channel B
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post #24 of 152 Old 07-02-2019, 10:08 AM
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Thanks to those who mentioned the LaVoce sale!!

I ordered 2 of the SAF184.03 subwoofers today. They will go in Mini-Marty's tuned to 20 and will power with an NX6000D.

Sale price plus the 50 off coupon code, so I was very happy to be at around $500 for 2 18"s with associated neutrik's, speaker feet, screws, and such.
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post #25 of 152 Old 07-02-2019, 10:53 AM
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What coupon code? For that price I would pick the Lavoce as well, better deal than the daytons.

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post #26 of 152 Old 07-02-2019, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
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What coupon code? For that price I would pick the Lavoce as well, better deal than the daytons.
CJFIFTY - 50 off 500
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post #27 of 152 Old 07-02-2019, 10:59 AM
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CJFIFTY - 50 off 500
Thank you.

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post #28 of 152 Old 07-02-2019, 11:00 AM
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B&C 21DS115-4 21 vs LaVoce SAN214.50 21

Shoot, if my wife wouldn't divorce me for all the time it'd take me to build 4 new subs, I'd sell my 2 B&C subs and buy the 4 Lavoce to compete my SBA.
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post #29 of 152 Old 07-02-2019, 11:07 AM
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Yes, at that price it has the low end of the dayton and double up top, no brainer.
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post #30 of 152 Old 07-02-2019, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
What coupon code? For that price I would pick the Lavoce as well, better deal than the daytons.
MK..I used code pecart2 for 10% of total order.

Receiver : Pioneer Elite SC-95
Front Speakers: 3 DIYSG 1099's
Surround Speakers:2 DIYSG Volt 10's Atmos: 2 DIYSG Volt 6's
Subwoofers: Dual LaVoce SAN214.50 21's in Cyclops enclosures w/Inuke 6000 DSP Channel A
Nearfield: 4 B-52 SP-1804 18s w/Inuke 6000DSP Channel B
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