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-   -   Another iN3kDSP bites the dust with "red knobs of death" (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/3078798-another-in3kdsp-bites-dust-red-knobs-death.html)

LondonBenji 07-15-2019 10:52 PM

Another iN3kDSP bites the dust with "red knobs of death"
 
Sad day, was watching TV, walked out the room to get a drink, came back, sniff sniff, uh oh... that distinct smell of dead electronics.... Wait why is there no bass on the TV anymore?.......oh....... :(

Sony receiver into iN3kDSP bridged into 4ohms on an SI DS4 (voice coils in series) that's in a 4cuft sealed enclosure. Been running fine for the last year or two and has suddenly given up the ghost, wasn't even running remotely hard at all (TV game show so it was mostly idle). When I looked at it, both knobs were red, stupidly I turned it off and turned it back on again in case it had randomly overheated or something. It has never overheated before and it's completely unmodified/completely stock but the IT person in me naturally went for the "turn it off and on again". Well it turns back on, there's a massive thump from the DS4, the left (channel A) knob is flashing amber/red, the fan spins up higher than normal and I can smell the smell again. I quickly turn it off with a massive thump again from the DS4 (this is not normal) and unplug everything. I'm hoping that the only good thing about the thump from the DS4 is that it hasn't been trashed along with the amp, my thinking being that if the cone can still move like that, the voice coils haven't dead shorted....

With all cables unplugged, I reconnect power ONLY and turn it on. Left knob is flashing amber/red but this time quickly reverts to just red and the fan shuts off completely which is not normal at all. It's dead Jim :(

Quick Google and it's a common issue, what's not common knowledge is the whole "register your product within 90 days to ACTUALLY GET the full 3 year warranty".... thanks Behringer, lesson learned. I do see a fuse on the board but I haven't seen if any has had any success in replacing it, I guess I can get the multimeter out and check for continuity? I don't see anything obviously scorhed on the board but it's late so didn't look too hard. Speaking of multimeters, should I check the voice coils on the DS4 as well? I'm assuming if they HAD actually fried, they'd show 0ohms or something?

So what are my next options? I was thinking about getting a Crown XLS 2502 since they seem to get good reviews and are reported very quiet all the time, along with being able to completely shut off the LEDs (thank you!) it'll also allow me to drive the four SI HT-18D2v1s I have just laying around if I want since it puts out 1200W/2ch/2ohm and as I understand it, the HT18v1D2's are good for about 500-600W each? Not sure if the 2502 has been measured though. These would also be in 4x4cuft sealed enclosures, do I still need a MiniDSP on the Crown for this configuration? Do I run the DVC in parallel (1ohm) and then series the two subs (2ohm), or do I series the DVC (4ohm) and parallel the two subs (back to 2ohm)?

I see some concerning threads about the Crowns not actually putting out the power they claim but nothing about them ever dying. Has their power output ever actually been measured?

LTD02 07-16-2019 03:35 AM

i'm not sure if the amps are identical on the inside.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post44737401

dasa2131 07-16-2019 05:04 AM

LondonBenji,

I'm really sorry to hear about this. I've previously purchased 3 Inuke amps, and I've had to send back two of them for this exact issue. My recommendation: try going through the warranty return process. It's a hassle, and you'll have to pay to ship the amp to them. Contact the Music Tribes warranty center and give it a try. If you can get it repaired by them, sell the thing the next day.
I like your idea of going to Crown amps. I've switched over to the QSC PLX series of amps and will never buy another Behringer amp again.

I hope you can warranty the thing.

Regards,

Dave

notfastenough 07-16-2019 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LondonBenji (Post 58301390)
So what are my next options? I was thinking about getting a Crown XLS 2502 since they seem to get good reviews and are reported very quiet all the time, along with being able to completely shut off the LEDs (thank you!) it'll also allow me to drive the four SI HT-18D2v1s I have just laying around if I want since it puts out 1200W/2ch/2ohm and as I understand it, the HT18v1D2's are good for about 500-600W each? Not sure if the 2502 has been measured though. These would also be in 4x4cuft sealed enclosures, do I still need a MiniDSP on the Crown for this configuration? Do I run the DVC in parallel (1ohm) and then series the two subs (2ohm), or do I series the DVC (4ohm) and parallel the two subs (back to 2ohm)?

I see some concerning threads about the Crowns not actually putting out the power they claim but nothing about them ever dying. Has their power output ever actually been measured?

Most issues I've seen for issues with the Crown is getting enough signal voltage to them and the DSP is not really DSP like the iNuke. It's a fixed slope crossover that can be HP, LP, or BP at fixed frequencies.

The low signal voltage usually happens from Yamaha and Onkyo(iirc) AVRs. I believe if you use the AVR RCA to Crown XLR, you don't get the benefit of the .775v input sensitivity change either, but I'm not sure anyone has actually confirmed this.

I use the XLS1502 connected to two UM15s (in very sensitive horns), but I can drive the amp into the red clip lights with a Denon 4200W going RCA to RCA to the Crown. I've never heard the fans nor had the amp shut down when playing bass heavy music or demanding scenes and movies ran a couple of clicks hot on the amp attenuator knobs ;). I've been pleased with the performance and operation up to this point.

zeus33 07-16-2019 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notfastenough (Post 58302168)
The low signal voltage usually happens from Yamaha and Onkyo(iirc) AVRs.


Most Onkyos are usually pretty strong on the sub out 4-5 volts +. I'm not sure if that's true for the lower level models though.

notfastenough 07-16-2019 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeus33 (Post 58303526)
Most Onkyos are usually pretty strong on the sub out 4-5 volts +. I'm not sure if that's true for the lower level models though.

Gotcha, thanks for that. I don't exactly recall what the second brand was that was suspect. Not being victim to the issue means no scars to remember ;)

zeus33 07-16-2019 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notfastenough (Post 58303930)
Gotcha, thanks for that. I don't exactly recall what the second brand was that was suspect. Not being victim to the issue means no scars to remember ;)


Very true. Those have a tendency to stick in the memory. I think it's Pioneer that also has low output levels.

bear123 07-16-2019 02:21 PM

I replace my dead Inuke 6k dsp with a NX6000d as I got a good deal on it and couldn’t find the Crest Pro-Lite 7.5 in stock for a reasonable price a few months back. But if I wanted a better amp with more power than the Inukes I’d look at the PL7.5. It was tested in the measuring amplifiers thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LondonBenji 07-16-2019 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasa2131 (Post 58301776)
LondonBenji,

I'm really sorry to hear about this. I've previously purchased 3 Inuke amps, and I've had to send back two of them for this exact issue. My recommendation: try going through the warranty return process. It's a hassle, and you'll have to pay to ship the amp to them. Contact the Music Tribes warranty center and give it a try. If you can get it repaired by them, sell the thing the next day.
I like your idea of going to Crown amps. I've switched over to the QSC PLX series of amps and will never buy another Behringer amp again.

I hope you can warranty the thing.

Regards,

Dave

I'll certainly give them a try though looking through my emails I think I'm past the 3 year warranty point anyway... I may have extra warranty if I got it on the right credit card though and I think you're right, get it repaired/replaced if I can and sell it. While the Crowns are more expensive, I'm really not finding much in the way of failure and it seems that they much prefer to "thermally throttle" by reducing power so they can just keep going rather than cutting out. I actually prefer that train of thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTD02 (Post 58301590)
i'm not sure if the amps are identical on the inside.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post44737401

Perfect! Thank you LTD02! As I understand it the 2500 / 2502 are practically the same so if I'm reading this right, I should be good to go?! My Google foo was failing me and I have now found Luke's other thread with a little more info:

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/4...#comment-14021

I was thinking if @notnyt was interested, I'd order the 2502 to be delivered there for testing first but I think B&H Photo would sting me for tax if I delivered it there first... Maybe PSSL won't.

The question is, if all of the subs I am/going to be using are all 4cuft sealed, do I need any DSP action? I actually used your extremely helpful DSP settings thread for the iNuke to boost sub 20Hz frequencies which helped a lot, but will I need to do something similar to the 2502?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...z-dcx2496.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by notfastenough (Post 58302168)
Most issues I've seen for issues with the Crown is getting enough signal voltage to them and the DSP is not really DSP like the iNuke. It's a fixed slope crossover that can be HP, LP, or BP at fixed frequencies.

The low signal voltage usually happens from Yamaha and Onkyo(iirc) AVRs. I believe if you use the AVR RCA to Crown XLR, you don't get the benefit of the .775v input sensitivity change either, but I'm not sure anyone has actually confirmed this.

I use the XLS1502 connected to two UM15s (in very sensitive horns), but I can drive the amp into the red clip lights with a Denon 4200W going RCA to RCA to the Crown. I've never heard the fans nor had the amp shut down when playing bass heavy music or demanding scenes and movies ran a couple of clicks hot on the amp attenuator knobs ;). I've been pleased with the performance and operation up to this point.

I'm using a Sony STR-DN1040 and it would be RCA-->RCA, not sure if that would work with the crown and not sure if I need to use the 0.7V or 1.4V input setting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bear123 (Post 58304286)
I replace my dead Inuke 6k dsp with a NX6000d as I got a good deal on it and couldn’t find the Crest Pro-Lite 7.5 in stock for a reasonable price a few months back. But if I wanted a better amp with more power than the Inukes I’d look at the PL7.5. It was tested in the measuring amplifiers thread.

I've heard some good things about the QSC PLD4.2 and I was reading about the Crest PL7.5 in the measurements thread, unfortunately they are somewhat outside the budget for this specific setup unless you know of any spectacular deals on them?! The PL3.0 seems to be around the same price as the 2502 so not sure how they'd compare, though I do notice the PL3.0 has a DSP option that might be worth it/needed?

The 2502 looks a little nicer and has some additional features/touches that might be of benefit to me but the Crest PL3.0DSP on paper has more power and has a 5 year warranty vs 3 year warranty... not sure how quiet the Crests are though which is a huge 'feature' and point towards the 2502.

Anyone know where to get good deals on these amps?

LTD02 07-17-2019 10:14 AM

@LondonBenji

my guess is that unless your room is the size of a car, you will need some sort of dsp capability. mini-dsp could be an option.

LondonBenji 07-17-2019 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTD02 (Post 58307380)
@LondonBenji

my guess is that unless your room is the size of a car, you will need some sort of dsp capability. mini-dsp could be an option.

Dang it. Was hoping to get away without the extra cost. Any particular MiniDSP? Will the standard one be just fine:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/min...ox/minidsp-2x4

Or is the HD version needed/will it make any difference at all for purely sub duty:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/min...minidsp-2x4-hd

LTD02 07-17-2019 03:19 PM

there were some things about the standard version that folks complained about for various applications, but i don't recall them all or whether or not they would apply in your case. limited amount of delay was one. output voltage may have been another, but that won't be a problem in your case with the high input sensitivity rca's on the 2502. noise caused by faulty power blocks was another, but that's a $10 fix, and i don't recall it being a universal problem. a lot of guys complained about line noise and/or ground loops, but are more frequently gain setting issues (user error) than anything else. the noise floor is something like -100db, which should be fine. easy to use interface and easy to configure under 20hz without any crafty workarounds. probably the best money that can be spent for improving the sound of bass if dsp isn't already built in the amps. the 2502 lower limit iirc is around 30hz for center frequencies. i'm not sure if there are shelf filters or any way to trick the amp into doing what you might like (big low end shelf filter).

LondonBenji 07-17-2019 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTD02 (Post 58308798)
there were some things about the standard version that folks complained about for various applications, but i don't recall them all or whether or not they would apply in your case. limited amount of delay was one. output voltage may have been another, but that won't be a problem in your case with the high input sensitivity rca's on the 2502. noise caused by faulty power blocks was another, but that's a $10 fix, and i don't recall it being a universal problem. a lot of guys complained about line noise and/or ground loops, but are more frequently gain setting issues (user error) than anything else. the noise floor is something like -100db, which should be fine. easy to use interface and easy to configure under 20hz without any crafty workarounds. probably the best money that can be spent for improving the sound of bass if dsp isn't already built in the amps. the 2502 lower limit iirc is around 30hz for center frequencies. i'm not sure if there are shelf filters or any way to trick the amp into doing what you might like (big low end shelf filter).

Makes me a little nervous.... With the cost of the MiniDSP (HD or otherwise) it's getting into the ballpark of other amps that I believe have enough built in DSP to handle it, specifically looking at the following two:

- Crown XTi 2002
- Crest Prolite 3.0 DSP
- QSC PLD 4.2 (but this would really be pushing it a lot)

I cannot find any tests of these but the Prolite 7.5 was recently tested by @notnyt and seemed to do well, I'd *hope* the 3.0 was designed as good as the 7.5 but I don't know whether or not the built in DSP is the same between the two and if the built in DSP is going to be adequate to do what is needed in this roll.

I looked in the specs for my Sony STR-DN1040 and it says:

Output (Analog)

- ZONE 2 Voltage: 500 mV/1 kilohm
- SUBWOOFER Voltage: 2 V/1 kilohm


So I am guessing there's PLENTY of signal there.

LTD02 07-17-2019 11:16 PM

you'll have to investigate the dsp in order to see if it can create a conjugate of the rolloff of your subs in your room (i.e. if your subs start rolling off around 25hz down to 10hz and you want to flatten that out, the dsp needs to be about to provide gain from 25hz down to 10hz). it turned out the the dcx2496, inukes, and nx amps could all be made to do this. i haven't look into the amps that you mention, as iirc they don't have computer-based software that can be downloaded and experimented with.

notfastenough 07-18-2019 08:58 AM

As LTD02 alluded to, if you get the amps with built in DSP that aren't iNukes, you might find limited support for questions because they aren't as well utilized in this circle. However, the miniDSP is highly supported with many users that have used them for years in all sorts of manner. Not only that, but then your DSP stands alone if you decide to upgrade or change your setup. I'll eventually go the miniDSP route myself, but my current room and subs have good enough response at the MLP, everyone else can deal with what they have in their seats ;)

LondonBenji 07-18-2019 09:07 AM

Supportability, good point. I'll stick with the 2502 + MiniDSP plan.

sirjaymz 07-18-2019 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LondonBenji (Post 58311374)
Supportability, good point. I'll stick with the 2502 + MiniDSP plan.


Go with the Minidsp 2X4HD version. Much better control overall (delays, FIR, etc.) , along with higher output voltages.



I have both at the moment, one HD and one non-hd, and it literally is night and day on controls. plus the support here on the threads are more in tune with the HD version , due to BEQ thread for us bass addicts :D. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

zeus33 07-18-2019 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LondonBenji (Post 58310012)
Makes me a little nervous.... With the cost of the MiniDSP (HD or otherwise) it's getting into the ballpark of other amps that I believe have enough built in DSP to handle it,......


While those amps are good amps, the DSP in the Behringers is really the only amp contained DSP that's really useful. The DSPs in the other brands are very limited and most likely won't do what you really need them to, defeating the purpose of having it. I know it stinks to spend the extra money, but the Mini really is very capable.

LondonBenji 07-18-2019 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirjaymz (Post 58311480)
Go with the Minidsp 2X4HD version. Much better control overall (delays, FIR, etc.) , along with higher output voltages.

I have both at the moment, one HD and one non-hd, and it literally is night and day on controls. plus the support here on the threads are more in tune with the HD version , due to BEQ thread for us bass addicts :D. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeus33 (Post 58311926)
While those amps are good amps, the DSP in the Behringers is really the only amp contained DSP that's really useful. The DSPs in the other brands are very limited and most likely won't do what you really need them to, defeating the purpose of having it. I know it stinks to spend the extra money, but the Mini really is very capable.

Really do appreciate the advice all, going to call around and see if I can get a good price on the 2502 and a miniDSP 2x4 HD, I actually got a UMIK ages ago and never used it..... I know I know....

LondonBenji 07-18-2019 07:17 PM

Looks like I'd have to get the HD regardless since my AVR =

Output (Analog)

- ZONE 2 Voltage: 500 mV/1 kilohm
- SUBWOOFER Voltage: 2 V/1 kilohm


And on the miniDSP site in comparing the non-HD vs the HD:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/min...minidsp-2x4-hd

Unbalanced analog audio outputs: miniDSP = Max 0.9Vrms, miniDSP HD = Max 2Vrms

Weirdly Parts Express costs the same but doesn't include this plugin whereas if you order it direct from miniDSP, it does. Since it's the same price, I'll get it from miniDSP unless anyone knows of a great Parts Express discount code?

"Software plug-in (sold separately): miniDSP 2x4 HD plug-in"

https://www.parts-express.com/minids...essor--230-324
https://www.minidsp.com/products/plu.../2x4hd1-detail

But looking in the questions section they seem to suggest it DOES come with the plugin?! Soooooooo confusing:

"QUESTION: Does this come with any plugins (e.g.: 2x4 advanced)? If not what capabilities are available without plugins?
A shopper on Nov 30, 2017

BEST ANSWER: This ships with a coupon for one free plug in download from Minidsp."

"QUESTION: Minidsp site includes the plugin for free with purchase. The page above says it is extra, is that correct?
A shopper on May 27, 2019

BEST ANSWER: The device ships with a download code for the free plugin. Pay attention when selecting the download plugin; as there are multiple choices."

jevchance 07-19-2019 06:19 AM

I think that reference to "Software plug-in (sold separately)" in the product details is just cross-selling the add-on. I mean, you can load the thing up with plug-ins. But I think the coupon for 1 free plug-in comes inside the box.

You might want to email PE beforehand to confirm. I hear they are fairly quick to respond.

https://www.parts-express.com/contactus.aspx

LondonBenji 07-19-2019 09:57 PM

Okay so with four dual 2R voice coil subs, the plan is to wire the 2502 so it's in stereo mode with 2R per channel, does it make any difference if I wire the voice coils on each sub in parallel (1R) and series two subs together per side (2R)?

Or should I series the voice coils (4R) and parallel the subs each side (2R)?

Or is there no difference? I figured parallel on the subs was better than parallel the coils so that any slight differences between the two subs don't cause any issues. This describes it better than I think I am:

https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us...iring-Tutorial

Quote:

"It is far less desirable to make subwoofer to subwoofer connections in series. Due to slight and unavoidable differences between speakers and the high likelihood of uneven loading between different speakers in a car, there will be slight differences in the mechanical behavior of the two speakers in series. These differences in movement result in the creation of induced voltage (called back EMF) by the speakers across the series connection. This effect causes a problem when two speakers that behave differently are connected in series because the speakers can modulate each other (cause each other to move), resulting in distortion. The problem becomes more serious as more speakers are connected in series."

bebb 07-21-2019 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LondonBenji (Post 58317490)
Okay so with four dual 2R voice coil subs, the plan is to wire the 2502 so it's in stereo mode with 2R per channel, does it make any difference if I wire the voice coils on each sub in parallel (1R) and series two subs together per side (2R)?

Or should I series the voice coils (4R) and parallel the subs each side (2R)?

Or is there no difference? ...

https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us...iring-Tutorial

No one else answered, so I will try. I don't see that there is a difference.

Of course you could always try both ways. See if there is an audible difference. You could experiment and post here to share with the rest of us.:)

LondonBenji 07-24-2019 10:15 PM

Perfect timing, 15% off at PSSL and they had $50 off anyway but it looks like I go in just before that ended! So got the 2502 for $509 total and @zeus33 gave me a great tip where to get the miniDSP 2x4 HD!

Just gotta order some additional RCA cables while I wait for it to all come in about a week or so (2502 was backordered), gives me time to finish the last two 4cuft cabinets.

LondonBenji 08-02-2019 05:36 PM

So I got the XLS2502, I've measured around 4.9ohms on the SI DS4-18 and it varies if I gently move the cone so I believe that means the coils aren't nuked right?

I have another question about knobs.... As I understand it the knobs on the iNuke were attenuators NOT gain knobs, so ideally they should be set to max for our usual sub duties, right (mine was at least)? Whereas the knobs on the XLS 2502, correct me if I am wrong but these DO actually appear to be gain controls, right?

If that's the case, what should I set it to? Possibly on a related note, the SI DS4-18 was supposedly rated at 1,200W and if I remember correctly my iN3k was running, unrestricted bridged into 4ohms so roughly 2,000W. The 2502 is supposedly 2,400W bridged into 4ohms so I'm a little concerned I might start doing damage but there's no way to limit output power on the 2502 via software like there is for the iN3k. Is there a way to limit power? Perhaps the gain control can be used as a "limiter"?

I just want to setup the 2502 with the DS4 in its sealed 4cuft enclosure quickly, exactly in the place that the iN3k used to be to test everything exactly how it was before (without the miniDSP, don't have enough RCA cables to put it inline yet). I just want to make sure I'm not going to damage anything.


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