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post #31 of 65 Old 08-07-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Huh?

+1

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post #32 of 65 Old 08-07-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Huh?
If he adds minidsp to his car. which a lot of people have been doing, he can boost nulls instead of just kill peaks.

Basically if you run a minidsp to auto eq something and you have a 9db null at 40hz but say theres 6 peaks of 9db, autoeq is going to kill everything to match the 9db null if you run their program. So when you get into ported boxes and horns you shouldnt really boost the 9db null. When you have sealed boxes you can do whatever your amp allows. Same reason why the $30 jbls work so good, we add 12db of boost down low to make them rumble, the only way to can do that is putting them in a sealed box.

HSU says his drivers are meant to be ran sealed when you look up the link in my first reply. So me being me, I would just run them sealed and not worry about it. 1 its a car so its going to be loud, 2 id rather have 2 drivers in my car than 1. A ported box can add what...3-6db gain? Another driver can add 3db gain too.

Id just run the 2 in 1.5-2.0 cu ft each sealed and roll with it. You are not doing SPL competitions so what are you really going for that you want ported over sealed?

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post #33 of 65 Old 08-07-2019, 01:20 PM
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He was confused because you can't fix nulls unless you move the sub around, but you are most likely talking about dips in the frequency where the room gain artificially inflates around an entire octave.
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post #34 of 65 Old 08-07-2019, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by trilkb View Post
If he adds minidsp to his car. which a lot of people have been doing, he can boost nulls instead of just kill peaks.
Errmm, no. You can't fix nulls with PEQ. Period.

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post #35 of 65 Old 08-07-2019, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Trimlock View Post
I mean sure, you can boost a null but it will still be a null lol I'm sure trilkb meant a dip in the frequency, sometimes people refer to those as nulls too.
I suspect so as well, but most on this forum would have the same reaction I did.

To @trilkb : If you try to bump up FR on a null with PEQ you will attenuate the upper and lower boundaries of that null to the point that distortion will take over in a hurry. Try it with measurements if you haven't already.

The worst thing I ever did in my HT setup was to try and boost a null. Tread lightly when boosting.

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post #36 of 65 Old 08-07-2019, 05:25 PM
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Are nulls even an issue in a car.?

Using a longest dimension of 6', the first mode is at 94 Hz.

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post #37 of 65 Old 08-07-2019, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Are nulls even an issue in a car.?
Fair question. I don't know.

If not, are there dips that can be EQ'd? (Rhetorical question. You have to first figure out if they are nulls or dips that can be EQ'd)

This goes back to my first response to this thread - It really doesn't belong in this forum as we're comparing too widely varying spaces (car vs. room(s) in home).

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post #38 of 65 Old 08-07-2019, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I doubt the bass was as deep as you seem to think; specs of the most potent Vertec sub:

VT4880A
Fullsize Arrayable
2-18" Subwoofer
with Ultra Long
Excursion woofers
FREQUENCY RANGE
25 Hz – 160 Hz (-10 dB)
FREQUENCY RESPONSE
29 Hz – 120 Hz (±3 dB)

I used to want exactly what you want, and also thought that the way to get it was with the deepest bass possible.

But not so; to me too much sub-20Hz output makes the sound "fuffy" and adds to tactile but subtracts from impact.





I bet what you're hearing is response in the 30-40Hz region.

In any case, save yourself from doing the wrong thing, i.e. going lower than what will give you what you want, and measure the response of your Klipsch and duplicate their response.
I don't know what it was about that rig but it was the deepest bass I've ever heard... I'm starting to think they do use some kind of subharmonic synthesizer to get it that deep because man it was deep. It creates such an impact on the way music sounds that I'm going way out of my way to try to recreate it. I'm definitely going to try the epicenter and see if that's the effect I'm looking for.. I can always return it if not. To answer trilkb, none of my music has that frequency content but that's my whole point to begin with. Stuff that sounds "normal" on any other build sounds deeper on my klipsch and super deep at a live event. It's not 20hz content it's just being played that way somehow. I would do a sealed enclosure if I knew it would provide the bass I'm looking for but considering the direction this is going it probably won't. If the concept is that alien to all of you then it has to be a subharmonic synth.
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post #39 of 65 Old 08-07-2019, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian Chavez View Post
I don't know what it was about that rig but it was the deepest bass I've ever heard... I'm starting to think they do use some kind of subharmonic synthesizer to get it that deep because man it was deep.
I'm thinking you need to get measurements of the system in question. And compare them to measurements of systems you aren't happy with.

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post #40 of 65 Old 08-07-2019, 08:15 PM
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Measure twice. Build once.
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post #41 of 65 Old 08-07-2019, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian Chavez View Post
I don't know what it was about that rig but it was the deepest bass I've ever heard... I'm starting to think they do use some kind of subharmonic synthesizer to get it that deep because man it was deep...

It's even possible that's what's required is the opposite of what you think.

I forget which manufacturer (Peavey I think) and what it was called but it's bass processing that makes the base sound deeper and it does it by adding harmonics, not subharmonics.

Consistent with this, when I set up my garage system with a sub the bass was lacking and I noticed that it had a switch for 60 hz and 120 hz XO's for the sub.

When I switched it from 60 to 120 it sounded like there was more bass and it sounded deeper, which is the opposite of what you'd expect from the numbers.

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post #42 of 65 Old 08-08-2019, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Are nulls even an issue in a car.?



Using a longest dimension of 6', the first mode is at 94 Hz.


You’d be surprised, I suspect it’s thought of as uncommon since very few EQ their vehicle.


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post #43 of 65 Old 08-08-2019, 05:36 AM
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Sorry, guess I shouldve used the word "dip" and not "null". Thats this world, it all comes down to 1 word as to weather or not people understand you.

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post #44 of 65 Old 08-08-2019, 11:16 AM
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Sorry, guess I shouldve used the word "dip" and not "null". Thats this world, it all comes down to 1 word as to weather or not people understand you.

yeah, too bad words have those pesky meanings
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post #45 of 65 Old 08-08-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
yeah, too bad words have those pesky meanings

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post #46 of 65 Old 08-08-2019, 11:21 PM
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I'm thinking you need to get measurements of the system in question. And compare them to measurements of systems you aren't happy with.
Exactly this, but I will say it is very hard to have a car mimic a room. I've attempted to do this with the wifes car and what it boiled down to was we had to forgo all ULF and concentrate on 35hz plus. Taming ULF in a car wasn't easy and there are other areas in the band that are hard to mimic as well seeing as rooms having a lot of reflections that aren't the same as in a car.
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post #47 of 65 Old 08-09-2019, 03:23 AM
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Exactly this, but I will say it is very hard to have a car mimic a room. I've attempted to do this with the wifes car and what it boiled down to was we had to forgo all ULF and concentrate on 35hz plus.
Really? I was experimenting with a sealed sub the other day, and it was flat down to about 10hz in a small Toyota.
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post #48 of 65 Old 08-09-2019, 05:38 AM
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Were you running Dirac? Or any other tuning software? What was the sealed you were running, and when you say flat do you have a measurement of it? I’ve never seen a car flat with anything down to 10hz without some serious tuning.


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post #49 of 65 Old 08-09-2019, 09:06 AM
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ULF should be a piece of cake in a car, at least with the windows closed.

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post #50 of 65 Old 08-10-2019, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought I'd show you guys a short clip of one of the shows I went to and see what you think. If you play it on your HT setup then play the same song on youtube you should be able to hear the difference in the bass. I realize the bass in the recording is louder but that's not what I'm talking about. This was shot at the Hollywood Palladium using an iPhone 6s. They really deck that venue out with a huge sound arsenal. If you look closely they actually used PK subs for this one. I find those to be deep but not quite as deep as the JBL rig. By no means does the iPhone 6s do the experience justice but it picks up the deep bass pretty well on this lower volume scene where the show was just starting and the first DJ was playing.

Clip -

Song on YouTube -

Other clip at full volume with the JBL rig -
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post #51 of 65 Old 08-10-2019, 08:42 PM
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Probably a subharmonic synth. This is a good demo of a single channel dbx subharmonic synth. Check it out on decent speakers. It's not in english but you'll get the message in a hurry. Pretty much any club or live music will use something like this. In a past life I dated a, uh, dancer and they had to bring their own music in. I re-recorded all her stuff with some healthy subharmonics and the club would come alive any time her stuff was playing (in fairness I think she did most of the work for that... )



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post #52 of 65 Old 08-11-2019, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I can see that being the solution. Not sure how that's going to act exactly with my music but it looks promising. Hopefully the epicenter delivers.
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post #53 of 65 Old 08-11-2019, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian Chavez View Post
I thought I'd show you guys a short clip of one of the shows I went to and see what you think. If you play it on your HT setup then play the same song on youtube you should be able to hear the difference in the bass.

Listening to those clips on my system showed a clear difference. All bass in the first recording below about 30hz was gone, as in not present at all.


That kind of jives with you liking the sound signature of a way-too-small so it saves money on shipping, very high tuned, Klipsch HT sub. They generally only extend down to 30hz in any meaningful way.



The kind of sound you want is easy and cheap to achieve. Very small ported box, tuned 30 - 40hz. Boost the ever living hell from 30 - 50hz. (like at least 6db, but aim for 12). High pass somewhere around 22hz so the box "unloads" and adds a fair bit to distortion. Distortion will be your friend. It "thickens" the sound of subs.



That matches the sound signature many live events and car systems I have heard. It also matches the measurements of most live PA bass rigs and most prefab car audio ported boxes you'll find at Best Buy.



Play with a tone generator like this one. 30hz sounds really deep to most people. https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/

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post #54 of 65 Old 08-11-2019, 10:05 AM
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Adding lots of 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion would work also, rather than subharmonics.

The perceived effect of distortion in low frequencies is that "the notes seem lower".

I will add that I think subharmonics are a bad idea with any ported box.
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post #55 of 65 Old 08-11-2019, 03:26 PM
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Eh, the maxi-bass style of 2nd and 3rd order harmonic distortion sounds as gimmicky as is possible when compared to a good subharmonic generator. Not to mention you don't get any of the visceral impact.

Subharmonic synths and ported boxes are fine, you just have to set your high pass filter correctly. Audiocontrol home products set it at 25hz, not sure what their car products do but it's generally switchable (and you can make your own). I have a 15hz filter on the computer setup and a 6hz one on the main system.
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post #56 of 65 Old 08-15-2019, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimlock View Post
Were you running Dirac? Or any other tuning software? What was the sealed you were running, and when you say flat do you have a measurement of it? I’ve never seen a car flat with anything down to 10hz without some serious tuning.


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My apologies... I just realized this comment was directed towards me haha.

I misspoke, actually. It was flat to 15hz, not 10. Zero tuning, sealed box with the $30 JBL from Best Buy, and the amp I was using actually had a HPF at 18hz. Next time I was use a different amp for a consistent voltage signal, then I expect it to be flat down to about 12hz.

Red = Close-mic response of enclosure
Blue = inside car, showing cabin gain

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post #57 of 65 Old 08-15-2019, 07:36 PM
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With a HP at 18 it makes sense you were getting 15hz


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post #58 of 65 Old 08-15-2019, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian Chavez View Post
I literally just want a sub that will sound deeper at any given frequency out of the box like my klipsch does. Plug it in, play music through it, and it has a deeper sound signature overall than your average car sub. Everyone gets what I'm saying right?
Ha ha, obviously not. I *think* I get you though-what you mean is of course not that the tone sounds like a different lower tone, but that
- The tone sounds cleaner/clearer and/or
- Very low stuff that you don't hear on typical speakers comes through.
The theoretical rolloff of a sealed box matches the theoretical cabin gain of a small sealed environment. So theoretically a flatter ported box may have a peak. There are a lot of variables, but my suggestion to you is a low-tuned ported box, whose response is NOT flat at all but rather "droops" and rolls of slowly from the upper frequencies down to the port tuning. "Undertuned" if you will.

This also tends to a better transient response that a "flat" ported box, an area I wish I had more time to simulate and investigate. The hard part about all this is that yes, tuning low means longer ports, so you need a simulator that can spit out airflow velocity, to keep it reasonable. By the way, response is by no means all about flatness, that's just frequency response. The TIME response is what our ears really perceive, and the tuning affects that a lot. Lower and lower tuning starts to approach a sealed box, but with reduction of excursion at the lowest frequencies...and a hole to vent heat out of!
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post #59 of 65 Old 08-16-2019, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimlock View Post
With a HP at 18 it makes sense you were getting 15hz

Why do you say that?
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post #60 of 65 Old 08-21-2019, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I tried the epicenter and it did not do what I was expecting... I'm just not getting low bass. I'm sure it's my actual sub / box combination that isn't the best at reproducing it's effects because it just doesn't touch my HT sub. The epicenter is very cool in that it makes kick drums reaaally fat and punchy but it didn't seem to do anything under 40 hz even with both the frequency and width knob all the way down which is the lowest setting. The delay is definitely terrible which is a huge drawback. I maxed out the time alignment distance on the sub stage to 160" and that helped a lot. Not sure if I'm going to keep it. It's hard to tell if it's going to be beneficial with a different build since the fundamental sound isn't there. Well I tried and now I have an idea of what it can do. I think I'm going to reach out to the car audio forums and keep talking to people at shops or find a car audio show/ meet if I can. Thanks for the input!

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