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post #1 of 16 Old 08-18-2019, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Question about custom towers: project achievable?

Hello all,
I'm thinking to build from scratch a new set of more performing 4-way towers in order to replace my actual couple, 4-way as well built from a project designed by Ciare (this one: http://www.ciare.com/Portals/0/xBlog..._pes_h06.1.pdf , external measures are 55" H x 15" W x 15" D) using two CS326 woofers (https://www.lautsprechershop.de/pdf/...iare_cw326.pdf), one HW202 woofer (https://www.lautsprechershop.de/pdf/...iare_hw202.pdf), one HM500 mid-range (https://www.lautsprechershop.de/pdf/...iare_hm500.pdf) and one HT264 tweeter (https://www.lautsprechershop.de/pdf/...iare_ht264.pdf).
I need to say is that I do not consider kits of any kind, firstly because I love woodworking and electronics and second because, living in Italy, buying a kit overseas is not an option due to high shipping costs, taxes and custom duties.
I need also to say that those towers are equally used for music and movies and I do not use a subwoofer.
What I'd like to build is a tower using better components and that can possibly go down to 20/25hz: I do not know if this is achievable, using only a tower without the support of a subwoofer, but I want to try.
After reading many many threads, and yet to simulate, I could think to use one or potentially two PA-460 on each tower, almost certainly side mounted given their dimensions, but is this enough?
Or is it better to use smaller woofers but in a greater number (four or six for each tower, for example)?
For the high frequencies I'm thinking to use a Fostex FT17H, or similar, together with a compression driver (Celestion CDX1-1731 or DNA-360, if still available somewhere), and for the mid I could think at a Celestion TF1530.
I got some crossover design programs but I'm still at the beginning phase so it is quite possible that I am thinking to realize the unrealizable: is there anyone that could tell me if this project is technically feasible or is simply impossible?
In the mean time I'll continue to study those programs because I want to be able to build them (I'm not here to ask someone to design that system for me), no matter how many time I'll need, right now I simply need to know if I'm looking for the possible or the impossible.
Regarding the dimensions of the new set I can go up to 71" H x 20" W x 20" D, if this may be helpful.
Thank you in advance.
Best regards

Angelo

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post #2 of 16 Old 08-18-2019, 06:42 PM
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Hiya Angelo,

I'm sure the speaker you have in mind could be built. You're missing the biggest benefit of having your subs in separate boxes. It is very unlikely you will get optimum results from your subs in exactly the same place you get optimum results from the drivers that produce the rest of the frequency range.

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post #3 of 16 Old 08-19-2019, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Joseph,
thank you for your answer.
I'm missing the benefit of the sub because actually I cannot use it due a space problem, I used it many years ago and I have enjoyed it a lot but now I am obliged to use a full tower system, hence my question... actual towers are still ok even if I need to change both HW202 because the suspension broke down and the replacement job was not satisfying at all (I'm getting lot of vibrations), but the time has come to build, and hear, a better system.


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post #4 of 16 Old 08-20-2019, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelone View Post
What I'd like to build is a tower using better components and that can possibly go down to 20/25hz: I could think to use one or potentially two PA-460 on each tower.
For the high frequencies I'm thinking to use a Fostex FT17H, or similar, together with a compression driver (Celestion CDX1-1731 or DNA-360, if still available somewhere), and for the mid I could think at a Celestion TF1530. I am thinking to realize the unrealizable.
71" H x 20" W x 20" D
So basically what you are saying is: that you'd build my fronts, but without the FT17H being an after-thought, and using PA-460's instead of UM-15's?



^^^Left Speaker only. LFE and MBM subs are off.


My XO's are 10khz, 1khz, 150hz (all-active, XBS FP10k/20k powered. ~14kW per speaker.) Total overkill of course... You know me!
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post #5 of 16 Old 08-21-2019, 07:22 AM
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"no matter how many time I'll need, right now I simply need to know if I'm looking for the possible or the impossible."
Possible? Yes.
Can you design a 4way crossover for your very first project and have it sound good? No.
It does not appear that you understand how complicated designing a crossover is. There are many people on the internet that will tell you how easy it is and even show you, but for me and my ears, I only build speakers that have been designed by people that know what they are doing because I am very particular about sound. If you want to create a Frankenspeaker by all means spend your money on it. If you want something that resembles and audiophile level project, Then find a design made by a master speaker builder and copy it.
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post #6 of 16 Old 08-21-2019, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelone View Post
Hello all,
I'm thinking to build from scratch a new set of more performing 4-way towers in order to replace my actual couple, 4-way as well built from a project designed by Ciare (this one: http://www.ciare.com/Portals/0/xBlog..._pes_h06.1.pdf , external measures are 55" H x 15" W x 15" D) using two CS326 woofers (https://www.lautsprechershop.de/pdf/...iare_cw326.pdf), one HW202 woofer (https://www.lautsprechershop.de/pdf/...iare_hw202.pdf), one HM500 mid-range (https://www.lautsprechershop.de/pdf/...iare_hm500.pdf) and one HT264 tweeter (https://www.lautsprechershop.de/pdf/...iare_ht264.pdf).
I need to say is that I do not consider kits of any kind, firstly because I love woodworking and electronics and second because, living in Italy, buying a kit overseas is not an option due to high shipping costs, taxes and custom duties.
I need also to say that those towers are equally used for music and movies and I do not use a subwoofer.
What I'd like to build is a tower using better components and that can possibly go down to 20/25hz: I do not know if this is achievable, using only a tower without the support of a subwoofer, but I want to try.
After reading many many threads, and yet to simulate, I could think to use one or potentially two PA-460 on each tower, almost certainly side mounted given their dimensions, but is this enough?
Or is it better to use smaller woofers but in a greater number (four or six for each tower, for example)?
For the high frequencies I'm thinking to use a Fostex FT17H, or similar, together with a compression driver (Celestion CDX1-1731 or DNA-360, if still available somewhere), and for the mid I could think at a Celestion TF1530.
I got some crossover design programs but I'm still at the beginning phase so it is quite possible that I am thinking to realize the unrealizable: is there anyone that could tell me if this project is technically feasible or is simply impossible?
In the mean time I'll continue to study those programs because I want to be able to build them (I'm not here to ask someone to design that system for me), no matter how many time I'll need, right now I simply need to know if I'm looking for the possible or the impossible.
Regarding the dimensions of the new set I can go up to 71" H x 20" W x 20" D, if this may be helpful.
Thank you in advance.
Best regards

Angelo



I'd echo the last suggestion, and state that unless you are well versed in crossover design, it is unlikely you will create something that sounds good on and off axis. The inter-driver distance, bandwidth and directivity of each device used needs to be considered, plus accurate measured impedance and frequency response before designing a passive crossover.



If you are located in Italy, there exists little reason to import british and american made drivers. Italy is home to 18 Sounds, B&C, Ciare, Faital Pro and LaVoce. All of these companies make competent drivers that should be considered before importing a product.


25 hz out of a tower is an unlikely ask, unless your maximum required spl isn't high, and your listening distance is close.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, impulsivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #7 of 16 Old 08-21-2019, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks to all of you for your answers!


@BassThatHz : I already noticed your setup and I have to say that it is a little bit exaggerated for my needs!
Seriously, I like it too much but if I had enough space I would have gone with a sub, that's for sure.

@buggers : I'm really aware about the difficult to design a crossover and I don't pretend to be able to design a good one as my first design (not even in the 2nd, 3rd and so on)... as a DIY lover I know that I can learn only doing things but I don't want to start a project, investing time and money, for something that it is physically not possible to do, hence my question.
On the other hand that thing is possible but during my learning process I'll understand that the crossover design is out of my possibilities and/or capabilities, I'll accept it, at that point I'll look for an existing design and copy it.

@michael : you're absolutely right, and I have explained my point of view (at least I hope I did) just above, I have a lot to learn but I want to try hard, no hurry in this project.
Regarding the kits yes, I'm aware about those brands and I'll consider even 18 Sounds, B&C and Faital products (I know LaVoce but only by name, never heard their drivers), I was referring to complete kits such 1899s and so on.
No need for high spl and the listening distance is about 15ft.


Given the dimension of the towers I'm starting to think at a sealed enclosure bass section with a rough 9.1 cubic foot net volume.

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post #8 of 16 Old 08-22-2019, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelone View Post
@BassThatHz : I already noticed your setup and I have to say that it is a little bit exaggerated for my needs!
Seriously, I like it too much but if I had enough space I would have gone with a sub, that's for sure.
Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
Big woofers in mains is better than bookshelf speakers, hell it's better than most floorstanders! and definitely better than no bass at-all

Behringer is a European company.
Being active, if you buy a miniDSP 10x10 or NX1000DSP amps (both of which aren't american products), then you don't have to worry about complex-impedance (just nominal), and then you'd have adjustable XO (rather than set in stone with money/time/materials), you'd also have delay for time-alignment and EQ for smoothing/cutting/boosting. You also wouldn't have to worry about the different driver sensitivities and level-matching them with analog components. (All solved by the DSP.)

The hurdles of the physical attributes of the drivers, of course, still remain... but that's always the case...

PA woofers are very efficient, they don't need much power; 80w should get decently loud.
Two 5 channel AVR's with pre-in's would be enough.
(Of course you'd still want to keep whatever existing processor you have now for the actual digital decoding and HDMI video switching, and master volume etc etc.)

But yeah, if you go passive/analog XO's then your job gets MUCH harder.
Nobody is born a speaker designer, they had to learn it the same way as anyone else.

Pretty much every STEM career is that way.

But yeah, if your goal is 25hz, then you'd probably want the best & biggest woofers you can manage to stuff into the box with sufficient power behind it. The low-end would preferably be powered with a pro-amp of some sort (or a high-powered HiFi amp, at least 500w @ 8-ohm just for the bottom-end alone.) If you want superb results that is...
Dual AVR's would definitely be a compromise etc.

Depends on your budget and knowledge.
More learning on your end may be required. (Barbie and Batteries not included, sold separately... hehe! )
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post #9 of 16 Old 08-23-2019, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Big woofers is better: that's what I have always heard in the past, but I have heard that multiple smaller drivers (8" or 10") could be an even better choice depending by the environment (and probably by the enclosure), so who is right?
Unfortunately I still haven't the competency nor the experience needed to understand and decide which kind of project is feasible and suitable for my needs, that's the reason I want to work hard to learn all I need to know in this matter.
But please let me say one important thing: I'm not in any way against American products, I only said that I will not consider any kind of kit that are available overseas due shipment expenses, vat and other taxes (well, I AM against kits in general because I enjoy to do all the woodwork), so I'll consider any kind of driver, amplifier and other products that I can buy directly here in Europe, no problem about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz
Nobody is born a speaker designer, they had to learn it the same way as anyone else.
I completely agree!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz
Pretty much every STEM career is that way.
Sorry, what STEM means?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz
But yeah, if your goal is 25hz, then you'd probably want the best & biggest woofers you can manage to stuff into the box with sufficient power behind it. The low-end would preferably be powered with a pro-amp of some sort (or a high-powered HiFi amp, at least 500w @ 8-ohm just for the bottom-end alone.) If you want superb results that is...
Yes the goal is 25hz, but I still don't know if is feasible having a net volume of 9 cubic foot... I could think even at a pair of Dayton UM18-22, because looking at their characteristics seems to me they are more performing than the PA460-8... I tried to do some simulations with WinISD, here're are the screenshots:


One UM18-22:



One PA460-8:



Two UMs and two PAs:



As I am a complete noob I can very easily be completely wrong, but as far as I see using one driver in that net volume seems to have a better response... I could go for a 21" but I need to change shape, rectangular instead of squared, and even in such case I'm not sure I'll have the needed space for the depth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz
More learning on your end may be required. (Barbie and Batteries not included, sold separately... hehe! )
That's for sure (more learning and all the rest sold separately)!!!
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post #10 of 16 Old 08-23-2019, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelone View Post
Big woofers is better: that's what I have always heard in the past, but I have heard that multiple smaller drivers (8" or 10") could be an even better choice depending by the environment (and probably by the enclosure), so who is right?
Here's one speaker build i built few months ago. Its using Seas L26ROY (10" inch long stroke) as woofer and goes easily under 20hz in 60liter ported enclosure. Could that driver work ? just a thought.
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post #11 of 16 Old 08-23-2019, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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That sound very interesting, thank you very much!
Can you please confirm that the exact model is D1001-04?

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post #12 of 16 Old 08-24-2019, 11:04 AM
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Box modelling software only shows the 1m distance SPL.
Chances are you are further back than that.

Additionally they often show only either max-power output or 1w output,
realistically it will be somewhere in-between.

If you play it well-below max and add a ULF boost, it can be flat to 2hz just like mine.
Mine are dual UM-15's, a CEL-15 mid, a SEOS and a Fostex 17, box is 16x16x58. All sealed and stuffed and braced, 1.5" birch.

Dual 15's is the equivalent of a single 21. It has solid output to 17hz, and continues flat to single digits (but can't play it with authority, obviously...)

Low bass is expensive. Every octave lower costs about 4x as much, and requires 4x more hardware.
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post #13 of 16 Old 08-25-2019, 02:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
If you play it well-below max and add a ULF boost, it can be flat to 2hz just like mine.
Mine are dual UM-15's, a CEL-15 mid, a SEOS and a Fostex 17, box is 16x16x58. All sealed and stuffed and braced, 1.5" birch.

Dual 15's is the equivalent of a single 21. It has solid output to 17hz, and continues flat to single digits (but can't play it with authority, obviously...)

That's a result even better than what I was originally thought, I really cannot ask more than this!
Today I'll re-read your build thread, unfortunately videos are no longer available on youtube but for sure I want to fully understand your build.



Quote:
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Low bass is expensive. Every octave lower costs about 4x as much, and requires 4x more hardware.
Yes indeed, I have read many threads about the building of powerful monster subs authoritatively able to reach and maintain single digits, if and when I'll have a dedicated room big enough I'll think at them but that is a very different story, let's improve the reality for now!
Thank you again!


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post #14 of 16 Old 08-26-2019, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelone View Post
That sound very interesting, thank you very much!
Can you please confirm that the exact model is D1001-04?
Yes it is.
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post #15 of 16 Old 08-26-2019, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Perfect, thank you very much.
So right now I have at least two possible configuration that can let me reach my goal, beyond my best expectations!
I need to look into some specific details of those configurations, maybe I'll ask to both of you some specific questions but I hope I'm not bothering you.
Thank you again.


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post #16 of 16 Old 08-26-2019, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
So basically what you are saying is: that you'd build my fronts, but without the FT17H being an after-thought, and using PA-460's instead of UM-15's?


My XO's are 10khz, 1khz, 150hz (all-active, XBS FP10k/20k powered. ~14kW per speaker.) Total overkill of course... You know me!
I really can never get enough of seeing pictures of your speakers or theater. Whenever I see your thumbnail picture in a thread that I'm glossing over, especially if there's a pic involved, my interests are always piqued!
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