Can someone explain these specifications to me? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 28 Old 08-19-2019, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Can someone explain these specifications to me?

I understand that the ohm value is dependent on the speaker itself and the configuration of the speakers in series/parallel.

What I don't understand is what determines the different RMS watts per channel in this specification books chart? It seems to me that a header with different categories is missing, but most likely it's implied. I've included a link to the manual of my amp where I obtained the attached screen capture from also.

I'm having an issue where this amp is not putting out the amount of wattage it should and I'm trying to figure out what I've configured incorrectly on it. (apparently Idk what I'm doing and need help) .

https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs...000-manual.pdf (page 11)
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post #2 of 28 Old 08-19-2019, 12:24 PM
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@gte I don't own one of those amps but others here who can help will probably need to know a few things first.

1. What speakers do you have?
2. Are they 4 or 8 ohm?
3. How did you wire then from the Pyle?
4. How do you know the Pyle is not putting out the correct amount of wpc?
5. What device is driving the Pyle?

p.s. Its blurry so I cant see it, but those look like the power specs for the Pyle relating to the channels driven, series wiring vs. bridged wiring, 8 ohm speakers vs 4 ohm speakers.

p.s.s If it sounds too low or sounds like crap then you could have a bad speaker(s) or you possibly wired them incorrectly.

Those are some initial thoughts, hope it helps.
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post #3 of 28 Old 08-19-2019, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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If you click on the attachment or the li nk to the pdf file, it's not blurry anymore. The forum is doing that.

1/2.I used a 12" Kenwood to test with, 4ohm. I have not purchased any permanent speakers yet and am in the process of deciding which ones to get.
3. It's wired in bridged mono mode and I also tried it in a single channel mode. It's with 18 gauge speaker wire and of course + goes to + and - to - if that's what you are asking.
4. I'm going to use some measuring devices to test with today, but it's underperforming so much, something isn't correct. I don't know what it is yet, but to get any decent bass out of a single 12, I'm pushing a "supposed" 2000w rms to it, which should virtually explode the speaker. I'm sure that my lack of knowledge is the issue.
5. I'm using a Denon avr-s700w receiver.


Hopefully this image is better. I'm thinking of returning it and getting something better as the more I read about Pyle on this forum, the more I'm uneasy? I'm a newb at home audio, but not at car audio if that helps.




Quote:
Originally Posted by eriksells916 View Post
@gte I don't own one of those amps but others here who can help will probably need to know a few things first.

1. What speakers do you have?
2. Are they 4 or 8 ohm?
3. How did you wire then from the Pyle?
4. How do you know the Pyle is not putting out the correct amount of wpc?
5. What device is driving the Pyle?

p.s. Its blurry so I cant see it, but those look like the power specs for the Pyle relating to the channels driven, series wiring vs. bridged wiring, 8 ohm speakers vs 4 ohm speakers.

p.s.s If it sounds too low or sounds like crap then you could have a bad speaker(s) or you possibly wired them incorrectly.

Those are some initial thoughts, hope it helps.
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post #4 of 28 Old 08-19-2019, 12:46 PM
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@gte are you using this Pyle for outdoor PA speakers in zone 2 or for left right home theater speakers?
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post #5 of 28 Old 08-19-2019, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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The way I have it hooked up is there are 2 preouts on the Denon and I've piped them into the Pyle to test the 2 different amp inputs. I'm only using the amp to drive subs.

I have a small window to return it, so if it's not a configuration error (me) I want to be able to do that.





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@gte are you using this Pyle for outdoor PA speakers in zone 2 or for left right home theater speakers?
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post #6 of 28 Old 08-19-2019, 02:16 PM
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@gte the s700 has a y splitter in those subs outs, so are trying to use both outputs into the Pyle or do you have a single lfe signal going from the s700 into the pyle? I do not see an lfe input which means you are probably not going to be able to output anything below 40hz?

I see that this pyle is used a lot for PA sound system speakers but I cannot find any useful info on how to use it with a sub, let alone dual subs. You could possibly ask @rboster to move this to the diy speaker and sub forum as those guys over there know everything about subs and amps.


Good luck!
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post #7 of 28 Old 08-19-2019, 04:27 PM
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Quick and simple biased answer, with a short return window:

It says Pyle on the front of the box, return it.

Look around the diy section here. You'll start running across the same 5ish amps/brands.

Speakerpower
Crown
Peavey/Crest
Behringer
Clones


Behringer NU or NX, DSP, is probably the value leader.

As far as configuration, I don't know that receiver. Just make sure you have the RCA to XLR or TRS wired properly. There is a third wire for low level balanced connections on a pro amp that you aren't used to.

Last edited by reference level; 08-19-2019 at 04:35 PM.
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post #8 of 28 Old 08-19-2019, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gte View Post
I understand that the ohm value is dependent on the speaker itself and the configuration of the speakers in series/parallel.

What I don't understand is what determines the different RMS watts per channel in this specification books chart? It seems to me that a header with different categories is missing, but most likely it's implied. I've included a link to the manual of my amp where I obtained the attached screen capture from also.

I'm having an issue where this amp is not putting out the amount of wattage it should and I'm trying to figure out what I've configured incorrectly on it. (apparently Idk what I'm doing and need help) .

https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs...000-manual.pdf (page 11)
Hi gte,

The problem is a gain mismatch between the subwoofer output of your receiver and the line input for your amplifier. Consumer audio gear expects a line level peak voltage of < 0.5V for max volume whereas pro gear expects a line level input of > 1.7V for max volume (wattage) output. This wiki will explain the mismatch, but bottom line is the best you could expect with your setup is only 25% power output from your amp.

Mike
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post #9 of 28 Old 08-19-2019, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gte View Post
What I don't understand is what determines the different RMS watts per channel in this specification books chart?
The watts that the coil can handle is mostly defined by the awg of the voicecoil, and the ventilation and amount of mass surrounding it, also possibly xmech...

For the amplifier it is based on what the internal components can handle into a given ohm.
Generally it is the transistors that are the primary limit, they convert the ac to dc and dc to ac while also boosting the signal. Basically any silicon gate (rectifiers, diodes, NPN/PNP's etc)

As for why you aren't getting the output you want... well for starters:
1) marketing people lie
Additionally, XLR requires MUCH higher input voltages.

If the amp has a level indicator, -3db would be half-power, clip is full-power and -10db is 1/10th power, -20db is 1/100th power.
So until you can clip the output, you aren't at full power just yet (and that is assuming the breaker holds, and the amplifier doesn't melt or explode in the process... $h1t happens!)

Last edited by BassThatHz; 08-19-2019 at 06:01 PM.
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post #10 of 28 Old 08-19-2019, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reference level View Post
Quick and simple biased answer, with a short return window:

It says Pyle on the front of the box, return it.

Look around the diy section here. You'll start running across the same 5ish amps/brands.

Speakerpower
Crown
Peavey/Crest
Behringer
Clones


Behringer NU or NX, DSP, is probably the value leader.

As far as configuration, I don't know that receiver. Just make sure you have the RCA to XLR or TRS wired properly. There is a third wire for low level balanced connections on a pro amp that you aren't used to.
So you are saying scrap the amp or the amp and the receiver? I believe I have the rca to xlr wired properly, they're just mono cables from line out to line in correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhutchins View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gte View Post
I understand that the ohm value is dependent on the speaker itself and the configuration of the speakers in series/parallel.

What I don't understand is what determines the different RMS watts per channel in this specification books chart? It seems to me that a header with different categories is missing, but most likely it's implied. I've included a link to the manual of my amp where I obtained the attached screen capture from also.

I'm having an issue where this amp is not putting out the amount of wattage it should and I'm trying to figure out what I've configured incorrectly on it. (apparently Idk what I'm doing and need help) .

https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs...000-manual.pdf (page 11)
Hi gte,

The problem is a gain mismatch between the subwoofer output of your receiver and the line input for your amplifier. Consumer audio gear expects a line level peak voltage of < 0.5V for max volume whereas pro gear expects a line level input of > 1.7V for max volume (wattage) output. This wiki will explain the mismatch, but bottom line is the best you could expect with your setup is only 25% power output from your amp.

Mike
That makes sense with my 'symptoms' and the 1.7v sounds like a standard silicone transistor turn on voltage value where as 0.5v sounds like a transistor with a more exotic material (gallium iirc?)

To make sure I understand you, the Pyle wants 1.7v and the Denon only outputs 0.5v? Is there a conversion interface device? If not, do you recommend swapping out the receiver or amp kr both?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gte View Post
What I don't understand is what determines the different RMS watts per channel in this specification books chart?
The watts that the coil can handle is mostly defined by the awg of the voicecoil, and the ventilation and amount of mass surrounding it, also possibly xmech...

For the amplifier it is based on what the internal components can handle into a given ohm.
Generally it is the transistors that are the primary limit, they convert the ac to dc and dc to ac while also boosting the signal. Basically any silicon gate (rectifiers, diodes, NPN/PNP's etc)
So those values listed in the spec book are dependent on the build properties of the speaker components? I'm not sure I understood?

Quote:
As for why you aren't getting the output you want... well for starters:
1) marketing people lie
Additionally, XLR requires MUCH higher input voltages.

If the amp has a level indicator, -3db would be half-power, clip is full-power and -10db is 1/10th power, -20db is 1/100th power.
So until you can clip the output, you aren't at full power just yet (and that is assuming the breaker holds, and the amplifier doesn't melt or explode in the process... $h1t happens!)
This matches what I see. The most I see on the lcd scale is - 10db and that would match what I am experiencing. I appreciate this explanation. Should I get rid of the receiver and replace it with one that has the proper line out voltage?
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post #11 of 28 Old 08-19-2019, 08:59 PM
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The easiest solution to your gain problem is to return your amp and purchase an amp intended for consumer audio input levels. Alternatively, you can buy a miniDSP Balanced 2x4 which you can use to level match as well as EQ your subwoofers.

Good luck.
Mike
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post #12 of 28 Old 08-20-2019, 06:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I actually like the amp and do not like the receiver as it's so overly complex. I am probably going to try to find a different 7.2 receiver that's less complex to set up and does not require a tv to configure and has more buttons and knobs lol.

I ordered a mini dsp (thanks for that suggestion) and will report back on the difference, hopefully it's significant. &#x1f642;

If not, I'll try a crown as reference level suggested, along with a less complicated receiver.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mhutchins View Post
The easiest solution to your gain problem is to return your amp and purchase an amp intended for consumer audio input levels. Alternatively, you can buy a miniDSP Balanced 2x4 which you can use to level match as well as EQ your subwoofers.

Good luck.
Mike

Last edited by gte; 08-20-2019 at 09:34 AM.
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post #13 of 28 Old 08-20-2019, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gte View Post
So those values listed in the spec book are dependent on the build properties of the speaker components? I'm not sure I understood?
Woofers are rated to "handle" power, Amplifiers are rated to "produce" power.
Both are mere suggestions and full of marketing lies and thus shouldn't be taken as the word of god.
The exact implementation of what happens in the "guts" of the device is irreverent unless you are going to build one of either by yourself, for which there are endless websites and books on the related engineering topics.

Basically:
If it clips, feels hot, smells hot or bottoms out or sounds bad; then turn it down... (Otherwise turn it up. hehe! )

There are products that output XLR. such as the AV7705 or XMC-2 or miniDSP or CleanboxPro etc etc. (Depends on your budget and long-term goals...)

If you need an amp that can do XLR and RCA the Behringer A500 or 800 might do the trick. If you need DSP then perhaps an inuke or crown is the better choice.
If you need lots of channels of amplification for-cheap Dayton has some 8 or 16-ch amps on PE if I recall.
If you need lots of no-nonsense power then a DSP FP20k might be in order.

Last edited by BassThatHz; 08-20-2019 at 07:06 PM.
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post #14 of 28 Old 08-21-2019, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Mike,

Is there a product you can recommend that doesn't require configuration. I purchased one of these from Amazon and the person that sold it was explaining to me how to set it up and it's quite complicated according to them and I don't want to do that. I want something to plug in and fix the issue, I don't have time to devote hours and hours to learning this software and different configurations.

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhutchins View Post
The easiest solution to your gain problem is to return your amp and purchase an amp intended for consumer audio input levels. Alternatively, you can buy a miniDSP Balanced 2x4 which you can use to level match as well as EQ your subwoofers.

Good luck.
Mike
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post #15 of 28 Old 08-21-2019, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there a way to salvage what I have? I want to be able to plug things in and go, and so far it's been the exact opposite. I do not want to have read up on and learn about this as I don't have time for that, so any option like the minidsp isn't a good fit for me.

At this point I don't care if I have to return the amp, the receiver or both. The end goal is to have a nice loud stereo in my garage without audiophile quality because I'm a gearhead, not an audiophile.

Suggestions that will be turnkey would be greatly appreciated.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gte View Post
So those values listed in the spec book are dependent on the build properties of the speaker components? I'm not sure I understood?
Woofers are rated to "handle" power, Amplifiers are rated to "produce" power.
Both are mere suggestions and full of marketing lies and thus shouldn't be taken as the word of god.
The exact implementation of what happens in the "guts" of the device is irreverent unless you are going to build one of either by yourself, for which there are endless websites and books on the related engineering topics.

Basically:
If it clips, feels hot, smells hot or bottoms out or sounds bad; then turn it down... (Otherwise turn it up. hehe! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG])

There are products that output XLR. such as the AV7705 or XMC-2 or miniDSP or CleanboxPro etc etc. (Depends on your budget and long-term goals...)

If you need an amp that can do XLR and RCA the Behringer A500 or 800 might do the trick. If you need DSP then perhaps an inuke or crown is the better choice.
If you need lots of channels of amplification for-cheap Dayton has some 8 or 16-ch amps on PE if I recall.
If you need lots of no-nonsense power then a DSP FP20k might be in order.
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post #16 of 28 Old 08-22-2019, 11:01 AM
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BassThat Hz gave you several recommendations that would work. Have you looked at any of those options?
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post #17 of 28 Old 08-22-2019, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gte View Post
...
What I don't understand is what determines the different RMS watts per channel in this specification books chart? It seems to me that a header with different categories is missing, but most likely it's implied. I've included a link to the manual of my amp where I obtained the attached screen capture from also.
...
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs...000-manual.pdf (page 11)
each column in the manual is for a different amplifier.

there is no indication which column applies to your amplifier.

the website indicates "total power" as 3000 watts, so using a universal translator, it is probably a 150 watt per channel amp, maybe.

https://www.pyleaudio.com/sku/PTA3000

a guy on amazon seems to suggest that it is a 150-200 watt amp or perhaps a little more.



https://www.amazon.com/Pyle-PTA3000-.../dp/B0010KAJLY
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post #18 of 28 Old 08-22-2019, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
a guy on amazon seems to suggest that it is a 150-200 watt amp or perhaps a little more.

I love it. They can't even spell "no" correctly... that's gotta instill some confidence. LOL!
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post #19 of 28 Old 08-22-2019, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gte View Post
I want to be able to plug things in and go, and so far it's been the exact opposite.
Perhaps this is more to your needs. You flick the power button, and turn the volume knob. (You're done...)
https://www.parts-express.com/lepai-...upply--310-303

It can only connect 2 things to it though... a bluetooth device or 1 stereo rca analog device.
It also may or may not have the power you need.

With the A500 you'd have to keep the receiver, as the A500 has two discrete input attenuators which could get annoying if that was your ONLY device for controlling loudness.
The setup isn't any more complicated than the Lepai. You crank the knobs fully clockwise on both channels, and then slowly turn up the volume knob on the receiver. You never have to touch the A500 again if you don't want to. Technically you don't ever need to turn it off. It won't even add $10 to your power bill.

I don't recall if it has a remote trigger input or not (used for automatic power toggling). Triggers use a simple "1/8th mini" connector. I also don't know if your receiver has a trigger. But with it installed... the receiver powers on the amplifier when it itself turns on.

I don't really understand how a receiver could be confusing. It only has a volume knob and a input selector (used to select the input you want to listen to, such as: radio or HDMI1 or mains-in etc.) The rest is just useless settings that can be left as default-values.

The only tricky part is knowing that you MUST select what you want to listen to before you can listen to it (it will either startup on input 1 or the last input used).
All receivers act in this way, they are all functionally the same.

Perhaps the only hard part is enabling analog inputs if the thing has that turned off from the factory, and ensuring that the selector name is "named" what the input device actually is.... if that model even has that capability... some don't. If it doesn't then that can be hella annoying and confusing because input "DVD" might actually be an iPhone headphone jack or a CD player. (Print out the mappings in large font and staple it to the wall. DVD -> Phone. HDMI1 -> CD Player) etc...
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post #20 of 28 Old 08-22-2019, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't know if it means anything but it's only 2 channels and they are currently bridged?

Do you still think it's only 150w per channel out of a theoretical 1500w per channel?



Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gte View Post
...
What I don't understand is what determines the different RMS watts per channel in this specification books chart? It seems to me that a header with different categories is missing, but most likely it's implied. I've included a link to the manual of my amp where I obtained the attached screen capture from also.
...
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs...000-manual.pdf (page 11)
each column in the manual is for a different amplifier.

there is no indication which column applies to your amplifier.

the website indicates "total power" as 3000 watts, so using a universal translator, it is probably a 150 watt per channel amp, maybe.

https://www.pyleaudio.com/sku/PTA3000

a guy on amazon seems to suggest that it is a 150-200 watt amp or perhaps a little more.



https://www.amazon.com/Pyle-PTA3000-.../dp/B0010KAJLY
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post #21 of 28 Old 08-22-2019, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you.

I read this today trying to learn

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora...-dbv-and-4-dbu

And it sounded identical to my problem so I ordered the below earlier today

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ine_Level.html

If for some reason it doesn't work, I will get that Lepai.

The receiver was overly complicated because it cannot be configured without a television, because the menu is not intuitive and because you have to set the speaker size to 'small' to be able to enable the subwoofer options? Also, there is a well hidden setting to enable more than the 2 front main channels, even though I told it I had 6 speakers during the Audyssey setup and configuration? The Bluetooth also has to be paired with a soft menu setting on the TV, which I think is a poor design and is time consuming. So in essence nothing worked aside from the two front speakers until I started guessing at things in the menu and googling issues, which took an hour or two to work through.

Maybe there is a reason for all of that, but I expected it to be as you described where you change a few knobs and go.

When the LM2B device gets here tomorrow I will try it and report back. Thank you for your reply.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gte View Post
I want to be able to plug things in and go, and so far it's been the exact opposite.
Perhaps this is more to your needs. You flick the power button, and turn the volume knob. (You're done...)
https://www.parts-express.com/lepai-...upply--310-303

It can only connect 2 things to it though... a bluetooth device or 1 stereo rca analog device.
It also may or may not have the power you need.

With the A500 you'd have to keep the receiver, as the A500 has two discrete input attenuators which could get annoying if that was your ONLY device for controlling loudness.
The setup isn't any more complicated than the Lepai. You crank the knobs fully clockwise on both channels, and then slowly turn up the volume knob on the receiver. You never have to touch the A500 again if you don't want to. Technically you don't ever need to turn it off. It won't even add $10 to your power bill.

I don't recall if it has a remote trigger input or not (used for automatic power toggling). Triggers use a simple "1/8th mini" connector. I also don't know if your receiver has a trigger. But with it installed... the receiver powers on the amplifier when it itself turns on.

I don't really understand how a receiver could be confusing. It only has a volume knob and a input selector (used to select the input you want to listen to, such as: radio or HDMI1 or mains-in etc.) The rest is just useless settings that can be left as default-values.

The only tricky part is knowing that you MUST select what you want to listen to before you can listen to it (it will either startup on input 1 or the last input used).
All receivers act in this way, they are all functionally the same.

Perhaps the only hard part is enabling analog inputs if the thing has that turned off from the factory, and ensuring that the selector name is "named" what the input device actually is.... if that model even has that capability... some don't. If it doesn't then that can be hella annoying and confusing because input "DVD" might actually be an iPhone headphone jack or a CD player. (Print out the mappings in large font and staple it to the wall. DVD -> Phone. HDMI1 -> CD Player) etc...
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post #22 of 28 Old 08-23-2019, 12:29 AM
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I don't know if it means anything but it's only 2 channels and they are currently bridged?

Do you still think it's only 150w per channel out of a theoretical 1500w per channel?
in bridged mode, power is typically about 4x into 4 ohms what the stereo power is into 8 ohms, so probably somewhere around 600-800 watts, maybe a little more, it is a pyle, so who knows unless one gets measured.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #23 of 28 Old 08-23-2019, 06:17 AM
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...The receiver was overly complicated because it cannot be configured without a television, because the menu is not intuitive and because you have to set the speaker size to 'small' to be able to enable the subwoofer options? Also, there is a well hidden setting to enable more than the 2 front main channels, even though I told it I had 6 speakers during the Audyssey setup and configuration? The Bluetooth also has to be paired with a soft menu setting on the TV, which I think is a poor design and is time consuming. So in essence nothing worked aside from the two front speakers until I started guessing at things in the menu and googling issues, which took an hour or two to work through.

Maybe there is a reason for all of that, but I expected it to be as you described where you change a few knobs and go...
That's why they all come with manuals.

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post #24 of 28 Old 08-23-2019, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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So this did it, even at a 1/4 power from the amp knob and a volume level of 50 I am bottoming out the sub &#x1f642; so thank you everyone for replying and helping me learn.

Can we talk speakers now? What do you all think of 2 of these?

https://www.amazon.com/Q-POWER-QPF15...c71bf9acd18778

My amp is rated at 1,500 watts x 2 @ 2 ohms, so I could run 2 of those in parallel and hopefully it would sound good (it doesn't need to be audiophile good)
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post #25 of 28 Old 08-26-2019, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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No one wants to discuss sub woofers?
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post #26 of 28 Old 08-26-2019, 03:57 PM
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You really need the Thiele-Small parameters to adequately design an enclosure for a subwoofer. Here is an example of a subwoofer and its TS parameters.

Mike
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post #27 of 28 Old 08-28-2019, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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From the speaker you linked to

Sealed Volume 1.762 ft.&#179;
Sealed F3 73.72 Hz
Vented Volume 5.592 ft.&#179;
Vented F3 37.12 Hz

Does the vented volume have a lower hz value because it becomes a helmholtz chamber that mutes some of the higher frequencies in a subwoofers range?


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You really need the Thiele-Small parameters to adequately design an enclosure for a subwoofer. Here is an example of a subwoofer and its TS parameters.

Mike
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post #28 of 28 Old 08-29-2019, 02:46 PM
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No, all of the difference is in the lowest octaves where the vented enclosure has greater output. In the upper octaves, the performance is very similar. The port output is additive to the speakers output, thus you see increased output in the bottom octave.

Mike
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