Just pulled the trigger on the HTM-12's for L/C/R and I'm excited - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 138 Old 09-19-2019, 07:36 AM
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Well my xovers are all pre-wired and installed , hopefully tonight I’ll put the wall lining in , egg crate, then tomorrow finish with the drivers ...
disclaimer... I’ve got mtb ride after work, then pickup son from soccer practice, then 2 meetings with overseas japan team... so if not tired at 10pm then egg crate lining going in


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post #92 of 138 Old 09-24-2019, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Almost done. They are still drying in this picture. A light sanding and then the final coat will go on some time this week.

I will say that the foam roller was not the way to go. I put on three coats of primer and just wasn't liking the way the foam roller was laying the paint. I wrongly thought the foam would lay down a much smoother coat than a nappier roller. Well, this morning I laid down a second coat of black but decided to switch over to a 1/4" nap roller and couldn't be happier. The 1/4" is laying down a much smoother coat than the foam roller.

There's definitely a few things I would do differently the second time around.

1. Glue up all of the sides first to make sure it's all square. And then, I would glue in the braces and spread them if need be.
2. IF....I had to use a router with a flush bit again I would not use a 2-Handed router. The base of it is just to large for routing the small, flat piece up by the wave guide. I ended up getting jittery there and couldn't keep the router stable and made some divots that I had to fill in. I would use the smaller 1-handed router or what ever it is called that has a much smaller base. I only used the flush bit on two of the boxes. For the third box I used the sander with 80 grit and it took care of any lips pretty quick. Just have to be careful.
3. I would use a LOT more bondo to fill in even the tiniest of cracks/seams even if they don't look like that bad. That's because they sure do show when you paint.
4. I would start with a 1/4" nap roller if I had to use a roller but from here on out I will use my HVLP gun (after I get some practice with it).

Once I get these completed I've got to start thinking about speaker stands. I'm going to ask my son to build them on his X-Carve just not sure on height yet and if I should have them built so I can put lead shot in them or if that's even needed.
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post #93 of 138 Old 09-24-2019, 07:15 AM
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Hrmmm curious how you made divots with the trim bit. The bearing should keep it at the right depth.

Despite the divots, were you pleased with how the trim bit evened the edge to the panel?

Getting close now.

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post #94 of 138 Old 09-24-2019, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jevchance View Post
Hrmmm curious how you made divots with the trim bit. The bearing should keep it at the right depth.

Despite the divots, were you pleased with how the trim bit evened the edge to the panel?

Getting close now.

The base of the router would dip inside of the wave guide opening just a little causing the router to go off camber and so the cutting portion of the bit would cut deeper into the rounded part of the face of the speaker box. All of the divots happened on the face of the speaker and not the top. It's kind of hard to explain but I hope that made sense.

And yeah, that bit made uber quick work of any lips or overhangs. It was perfectly flush. If I had one of those smaller palm routers it would have worked out much better and if I ever find one on sale I'll be picking it up.

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post #95 of 138 Old 09-25-2019, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
Almost done. They are still drying in this picture. A light sanding and then the final coat will go on some time this week.

I will say that the foam roller was not the way to go. I put on three coats of primer and just wasn't liking the way the foam roller was laying the paint. I wrongly thought the foam would lay down a much smoother coat than a nappier roller. Well, this morning I laid down a second coat of black but decided to switch over to a 1/4" nap roller and couldn't be happier. The 1/4" is laying down a much smoother coat than the foam roller.

There's definitely a few things I would do differently the second time around.

1. Glue up all of the sides first to make sure it's all square. And then, I would glue in the braces and spread them if need be.
2. IF....I had to use a router with a flush bit again I would not use a 2-Handed router. The base of it is just to large for routing the small, flat piece up by the wave guide. I ended up getting jittery there and couldn't keep the router stable and made some divots that I had to fill in. I would use the smaller 1-handed router or what ever it is called that has a much smaller base. I only used the flush bit on two of the boxes. For the third box I used the sander with 80 grit and it took care of any lips pretty quick. Just have to be careful.
3. I would use a LOT more bondo to fill in even the tiniest of cracks/seams even if they don't look like that bad. That's because they sure do show when you paint.
4. I would start with a 1/4" nap roller if I had to use a roller but from here on out I will use my HVLP gun (after I get some practice with it).

Once I get these completed I've got to start thinking about speaker stands. I'm going to ask my son to build them on his X-Carve just not sure on height yet and if I should have them built so I can put lead shot in them or if that's even needed.
#3 . You never know about those seams or imperfections until the paint goes on! My first shot at DIY was the UM18/4cuft flat pack. I thought I had those seams sanded smooth. Wrong. You've got to get it to where you can run your fingers across the seam and not be able to tell that there's a seam there. I've started putting filler in seams and dings and that helps a lot.

Good job on your build. I look forward to your impressions of the HTM-12's.
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post #96 of 138 Old 09-26-2019, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Got them all finished up today and took them for a quick test drive after re-running Audyssey on my Onkyo TX-NR809.

I'll build stands for them after I figure out what design direction I want to go with.

But, right off the bat these speakers are very detailed. I'm hearing a little more from them than I was with my Klipsch and they sound much more spacious as well. The sound stage is definitely larger. I will say they aren't as bright as the Klipsch though. They are more laid back and I didn't even use the jumper that I think makes them even more laid back. I think I'm the only person that likes the brightness of the Klipsch. Maybe my ears or the drivers need to break in.

There is one thing though that is really bothering me and I'm not sure how I'm going to be able to correct for it and that is the center speaker is taking me out of the two movies that I used for tests. With my much smaller Klipsch center the voices sounded like they were coming from the middle'ish of the screen. From the HTM-12 center it sounds like the voices are definitely coming from below the very bottom of the screen. I would never have expected this from these and I've never seen it mentioned. If I were putting these behind an AT screen this would be a non-issue. Maybe I'll play around with tilting that center up even more tonight to see if I can find a sweet spot for them. I don't know what I'll do if I can't get the voices to move up.


UPDATE: Hooooollllleeeee schnikies! I decided to plug my iPhone into the receiver and play some music with no Audyssey involved. I've got goosebumps. It sounds phenomenally good. I'm blown away. I played everything from techno, to Phil Collins to The Cult and the HTM's blew me away every time, and that was with only two speakers playing music. Sitting in my MLP it sounded like the singers were right in front of my face. It was awesome. I think it's finally time to upgrade my receiver to one that can handle 4K so I can use the onscreen setup to make adjustments to the EQ because Audyssey for some reason is doing a disservice to these speakers.
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post #97 of 138 Old 09-26-2019, 04:01 PM
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Congrats! Glad you're liking them so far.

You want to tip them so the waveguide is pointed to ear level at the MLP. I recently built an HTM-8 for center duty and while not completely on the floor, I don't notice that the voices sound like they're below the screen (nor has anyone else who has heard the setup).

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post #98 of 138 Old 09-27-2019, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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So I spent some time during my lunch hour to try and get that center channel to be less super localized

This time I re-ran Audyssey using 8 test points instead of just 1. And other than removing a lot of bass it all still sounds good Except for that center. I swapped it with the right channel speaker thinking maybe I had some weird crossover issue but nope, it sounded the same. Then I disconnected the HTM center and put my Klipsch center back into the equation and although I can now hear that the Klipsch doesn't sound nearly as detailed and it lacks presence, the voices are way less localized and sound like they are coming from the screen and not under it.

So, I put the HTM back in but tried it flat, then tilted up to ear level and then finally tilted it like in my pic below. At that extreme angle it helped a little but not much. My Klipsch center is an MTM configuration using dual 5.25" woofers so maybe the MTM config works better for a center? Or maybe the MLP is just too close. We sit 11' away from the screen and maybe that's just too close for the HTM-12's? I don't know, I'm grasping at straws here.
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post #99 of 138 Old 09-27-2019, 01:28 PM
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I hate to say it since you already bought three speakers but perhaps try phantom center.
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post #100 of 138 Old 09-27-2019, 02:05 PM
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I would play with positioning a bit. Make sure that tweeter is laser-pointed straight at your mlp ears. Try pulling the speaker away from the wall a little.

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post #101 of 138 Old 09-27-2019, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
I hate to say it since you already bought three speakers but perhaps try phantom center.
Yeah, it's something I've been thinking about since music sounds so good on them.


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Originally Posted by jevchance View Post
I would play with positioning a bit. Make sure that tweeter is laser-pointed straight at your mlp ears. Try pulling the speaker away from the wall a little.
I did try pointing the CD directly at the MLP ear area and it just makes it even more localized. I even tried sitting way off axis and that actually helps it a tiny bit but not much. What I did not try though was it pulling it away from the wall in increments to see if it changes the localization. I will try that later tonight. Heck, I'm even going to try setting it on it's side (which is a no-no) so that the dispersion is greater and see if it makes a difference. And I may try reducing the gain on the center channel in the AVR settings.

I'm starting to think though that maybe it's a combination of the lower screen height, carpeted floor and the very large speaker size. I would almost bet an HTM-8 would sound less localized because I could get it up off the floor.
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post #102 of 138 Old 09-27-2019, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
And I may try reducing the gain on the center channel in the AVR settings.
Next thing I would try at this point. If that doesn't do it, as you noted, try moving it out from the wall (you'll likely have to play with center gain as you do this as well).

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post #103 of 138 Old 09-27-2019, 02:51 PM
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Time to DIY a spandex screen? You may try standing the center channel on something that puts the bottom of it around the bottom of your screen. If you like it an AT screen might be your best option.
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post #104 of 138 Old 09-27-2019, 03:03 PM
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"We sit 11' away from the screen and maybe that's just too close for the HTM-12's? I don't know, I'm grasping at straws here."

precisely (mol) how this is set up, the 11'
toe in of the l/r depends on mode, more for stereo, between 66 and 75-sih "
the xo's are like 900 vs. 950 ,
now the speakers are about 26-27" from the front wall
otherwise, rather awesome, certainly no localization issue,
for legacy stereo > tighter toe-in >sound stage is fabulous by any adjective

what are the avr gains of l/c/r after a audy session?

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post #105 of 138 Old 09-28-2019, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Next thing I would try at this point. If that doesn't do it, as you noted, try moving it out from the wall (you'll likely have to play with center gain as you do this as well).
Unfortunately I didn't have time last night to play around with the center but I'm hoping too today.


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Originally Posted by BlueGhost View Post
Time to DIY a spandex screen? You may try standing the center channel on something that puts the bottom of it around the bottom of your screen. If you like it an AT screen might be your best option.
Putting the speakers behind an AT screen is my ultimate goal but the aesthetics of it while keeping the fireplace to the left of the screen (our only source of heat when power goes out during winter) is my biggest issue. The wall would stick out quite a ways next to the fireplace.


Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
"We sit 11' away from the screen and maybe that's just too close for the HTM-12's? I don't know, I'm grasping at straws here."

precisely (mol) how this is set up, the 11'
toe in of the l/r depends on mode, more for stereo, between 66 and 75-sih "
the xo's are like 900 vs. 950 ,
now the speakers are about 26-27" from the front wall
otherwise, rather awesome, certainly no localization issue,
for legacy stereo > tighter toe-in >sound stage is fabulous by any adjective

what are the avr gains of l/c/r after a audy session?

DIYSG ROCKS
I had just enough time late last night to grab the values that Audyssey set for the speakers:


Front: 50 Hz
Center: 40 Hz
Surrounds: 40 Hz
Sub: 80 Hz
Note: I am an Audyssey newbie but to me this seems odd.


Left: 11.5 ft
Center: 9.5 ft
Right: 10.0 ft
SR: 11.0 ft
SL: 13.5 ft
Subs: 12.5 ft
Note: I'm going to measure these today but they do seem correct.


Left: -7.5 db
Center: -8.0 db
Right: -9.0 db
SR: -1.0 db
SL: -1.5 db
Subs: +0.5 db
Note: Again I'm not very knowledgeable with Audyssey but this would seem to be close
based on the measurements above. Not sure how much more adjustment I have after -8db.



And I really appreciate all of the help while I get this figured out.

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post #106 of 138 Old 09-28-2019, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
Putting the speakers behind an AT screen is my ultimate goal but the aesthetics of it while keeping the fireplace to the left of the screen (our only source of heat when power goes out during winter) is my biggest issue. The wall would stick out quite a ways next to the fireplace.
I did a "floating" screen. I made two shelves out of 1x12's and boxed them in with 1x4's. My screen hangs from the top shelf and rest against the bottom. My HTM10's will sit on the bottom shelf behind the screen, if I ever get them finished. My subs are going under the screen.

My room is small, 12x14, so this keep the screen from protruding out into the room too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
I had just enough time late last night to grab the values that Audyssey set for the speakers:


Front: 50 Hz
Center: 40 Hz
Surrounds: 40 Hz
Sub: 80 Hz
Note: I am an Audyssey newbie but to me this seems odd.


Left: 11.5 ft
Center: 9.5 ft
Right: 10.0 ft
SR: 11.0 ft
SL: 13.5 ft
Subs: 12.5 ft
Note: I'm going to measure these today but they do seem correct.


Left: -7.5 db
Center: -8.0 db
Right: -9.0 db
SR: -1.0 db
SL: -1.5 db
Subs: +0.5 db
Note: Again I'm not very knowledgeable with Audyssey but this would seem to be close
based on the measurements above. Not sure how much more adjustment I have after -8db.



And I really appreciate all of the help while I get this figured out.
The standard approach is to go back in after you run Audyssey and set your speakers to "small" and crossovers to 80Hz. This will send LFE and any bass below 80Hz to your subs rather than your mains.

If something sounds funky after that then adjust crossover up or down to your liking. I ended up raising the crossover points in my living room because male voices sounded too boomy.
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post #107 of 138 Old 09-29-2019, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueGhost View Post
I did a "floating" screen. I made two shelves out of 1x12's and boxed them in with 1x4's. My screen hangs from the top shelf and rest against the bottom. My HTM10's will sit on the bottom shelf behind the screen, if I ever get them finished. My subs are going under the screen.

My room is small, 12x14, so this keep the screen from protruding out into the room too much.

The standard approach is to go back in after you run Audyssey and set your speakers to "small" and crossovers to 80Hz. This will send LFE and any bass below 80Hz to your subs rather than your mains.

If something sounds funky after that then adjust crossover up or down to your liking. I ended up raising the crossover points in my living room because male voices sounded too boomy.
Last night I adjusted my crossovers to 80Hz and I dropped the CC db to -8.5db and this actually did help a little. I have to raise my screen a few inches because the center is in the way with 4K material but I think with a combination of tweaks (screen height, crossover frequency, getting the speaker off the floor, MLP distance and wall treatments) I should get the center channel localization to an acceptable level.

I also put a UMIK-1 mic on order and will try my hand at REW.

The next items on the agenda will be to get some stands built and then think about replacing my rear surrounds with another DIYSG speaker kit and getting some 18" subs upfront. But for now I think we can close out this thread.

Thank you all for all of the help with my questions and getting these HTM-12's built. If I have any more questions on this center channel issue I'll just make a new thread.

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post #108 of 138 Old 09-30-2019, 02:17 PM
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Your setup isn't that much different than mine (except for your big-a$$ screen)

I'm not bothered by localization of the center speaker. Mine is a little raised off the floor and a little pulled out from the wall but I don't see how that would make much difference. I'm 11' away and the CD is aimed right at my head (center tilted back)

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post #109 of 138 Old 10-01-2019, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
Last night I adjusted my crossovers to 80Hz and I dropped the CC db to -8.5db and this actually did help a little. I have to raise my screen a few inches because the center is in the way with 4K material but I think with a combination of tweaks (screen height, crossover frequency, getting the speaker off the floor, MLP distance and wall treatments) I should get the center channel localization to an acceptable level.

I also put a UMIK-1 mic on order and will try my hand at REW.

The next items on the agenda will be to get some stands built and then think about replacing my rear surrounds with another DIYSG speaker kit and getting some 18" subs upfront. But for now I think we can close out this thread.

Thank you all for all of the help with my questions and getting these HTM-12's built. If I have any more questions on this center channel issue I'll just make a new thread.

How about keeping your screen flush mounted and simply do an in wall installation of the center channel with an AT screen.
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post #110 of 138 Old 10-01-2019, 05:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Your setup isn't that much different than mine (except for your big-a$$ screen)

I'm not bothered by localization of the center speaker. Mine is a little raised off the floor and a little pulled out from the wall but I don't see how that would make much difference. I'm 11' away and the CD is aimed right at my head (center tilted back)

Wow! Nice setup! If you don't mind me asking, what crossover frequency are you running for your LCR's? Oh, and I've been wanting to try my hand with those Best Buy JBL's, when they go back on sale. Are you using those for MBM or full subwoofers? Do they go pretty deep?


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How about keeping your screen flush mounted and simply do an in wall installation of the center channel with an AT screen.

The screen is in the basement against an outside supporting concrete wall. I believe the interior wall is 2x4 studs with the concrete wall directly behind those. So, my thinking is that wall is only 4" deep. The speakers are 9.75" D and so 9.75" - 4" + the depth of any sound absorption material = how deep the wall will have to be if I mount the CC behind the screen. So the wall would have to be brought out some but now that I think about it, maybe not as much as I had originally thought. However, I think for now I still want to try and get it way less localized. It's most likely that I'm just way more sensitive to the localization than others. And to be honest, I watched Alita Battle Angel for the first time last night and half way through the movie I completely forgot about the localization. That movie was much, much better than I had anticipated.
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post #111 of 138 Old 10-01-2019, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueGhost View Post
The standard approach is to go back in after you run Audyssey and set your speakers to "small" and crossovers to 80Hz. This will send LFE and any bass below 80Hz to your subs rather than your mains.
There is a recent discussion about this topic here.

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post #112 of 138 Old 10-02-2019, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
Wow! Nice setup! If you don't mind me asking, what crossover frequency are you running for your LCR's? Oh, and I've been wanting to try my hand with those Best Buy JBL's, when they go back on sale. Are you using those for MBM or full subwoofers? Do they go pretty deep?
I'm set at 90Hz for the crossover. Not because of any dropoff below that in the HTMs but I get some "boomy-ness" in male voices in movies. The fact that the woofer for the HTM-12 is equidistant from the sides, sloped sides, and ceiling probably doesn't help. I built bass traps for each corner and the ceiling up front and up'd the crossover to 90Hz and that took care of it.

Yeah those $29 JBLs are something else. The only thing is that you've got to have a few of them. You also have to work on your EQ (with help from REW) and boost the low end. They dig plenty deep. I'll see if I can find an REW sweep to post...
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post #113 of 138 Old 10-03-2019, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Witchboard View Post
There is a recent discussion about this topic here.

Thanks Witchboard. I read through the entire discussion but to me it seemed very subwoofer focused and I'm just not there quite yet. I just got my UMIK-1 yesterday and got it installed on my laptop and even did a couple of L/R sweeps (using the tiny stand) just to see what it was all about. I have a boom mic stand arriving this Friday. Using REW will be all new to me and after reading all 136 pages of the REW Guide I have brain cramps.


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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
I'm set at 90Hz for the crossover. Not because of any dropoff below that in the HTMs but I get some "boomy-ness" in male voices in movies. The fact that the woofer for the HTM-12 is equidistant from the sides, sloped sides, and ceiling probably doesn't help. I built bass traps for each corner and the ceiling up front and up'd the crossover to 90Hz and that took care of it.

Yeah those $29 JBLs are something else. The only thing is that you've got to have a few of them. You also have to work on your EQ (with help from REW) and boost the low end. They dig plenty deep. I'll see if I can find an REW sweep to post...

Thanks jcmccorm. I'm hoping that after I get some time under my belt with using REW it will help with this CC issue.



By the way, is there a REW focused thread for beginners if I have questions?
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post #114 of 138 Old 10-03-2019, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by spshultz View Post

By the way, is there a REW focused thread for beginners if I have questions?
Right here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...et-graphs.html
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post #115 of 138 Old 10-03-2019, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Awesome! Thanks DigiWega.
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post #116 of 138 Old 10-03-2019, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
Awesome! Thanks DigiWega.
REW has what seems to be, at first, a daunting learning curve. Once you get everything working though (mine worked off the bat but some folks have issues) you pick it up quick and then you can start obsessing over your brand new hobby

What issues are you having with the CC other than audio localization?
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post #117 of 138 Old 10-03-2019, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
REW has what seems to be, at first, a daunting learning curve. Once you get everything working though (mine worked off the bat but some folks have issues) you pick it up quick and then you can start obsessing over your brand new hobby

What issues are you having with the CC other than audio localization?

Just the localization. Although, if I had to nitpick I would say that the center sounds just a hair muddier than the L/R. But I mean it's very minute and I'm not sure if it's just me hearing things or that's the way the audio was mixed.

But, other than that I was going to learn to use REW to do a check up on the system. To see if what I think sounds perfectly fine is actually not fine and could be better. And better is almost always better.
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post #118 of 138 Old 10-03-2019, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
Just the localization. Although, if I had to nitpick I would say that the center sounds just a hair muddier than the L/R. But I mean it's very minute and I'm not sure if it's just me hearing things or that's the way the audio was mixed.

But, other than that I was going to learn to use REW to do a check up on the system. To see if what I think sounds perfectly fine is actually not fine and could be better. And better is almost always better.
At this point, I might recommend double-checking phase on your center channel.

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post #119 of 138 Old 10-03-2019, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
I'm set at 90Hz for the crossover. Not because of any dropoff below that in the HTMs but I get some "boomy-ness" in male voices in movies.
The boomy-ness is likely because you have the speaker against the floor AND the wall, so you are getting bass reinforcement from two surfaces. Speakers are typically designed to be flat-ish anechoically (4 pi space), not against wall and floor (pi space). I believe Matt designed a slight bass bump in the frequency response too. You should EQ that bass reinforcement down if it's making voices sound weird. Depending on what version of Audyssey you have, you can limit the EQ to just the bass region as well, which is the recommended approach, as above the bass region (modal region of your room), you don't want to alter the already flat on-axis sound the speaker is designed to have.

As far as localization, that is the nature of these narrower dispersion waveguide speakers. You are getting a more focused sound with less room reflections that would add spaciousness to the sound and reduce localization.

I strongly recommend an AT screen regardless of what kind of speaker you use. There is no replacement for the sounds coming from the exactly correct location.
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post #120 of 138 Old 10-03-2019, 04:10 PM
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I am not familiar with your brand of receiver but my Yamaha has an option for Dialog Lift. In the manual it states that It adjusts the perceived height of dialogue sounds. If the dialog sounds as if it is coming from below the tv screen you can raise its perceived height by increasing this setting. I am sure yours has something similar buried in the manual somewhere. It makes a dramatic difference on mine. I like it set in about the middle setting. I have diysg fusion 8 and center and it makes the center blend in seamlessly. Hope that helps
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