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post #211 of 934 Old 01-23-2020, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
If the box were to grow and I sort through some engineering challenges a BMD Nano could be doable. This would be a concept of that.
Looks like i have to wait anyway, to see where this goes, LOL.

Some gain here and there, more usable curve

If i want to stack a couple, it would maybe be better to lay them down. So, could it work with ports out the bottom?

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post #212 of 934 Old 01-23-2020, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Looks like i have to wait anyway, to see where this goes, LOL.

Some gain here and there, more usable curve

If i want to stack a couple, it would maybe be better to lay them down. So, could it work with ports out the bottom?

I am not sure if you could get the sub out, that is the tricky part in designing a BMD with a fold. The box would probably go 5 or 6" deeper than the Nano if I attempted to design it and lose a few inches in height.

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post #213 of 934 Old 01-23-2020, 03:23 PM
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For a 21” driver, it seems that the Mini Devastator 21" Version 2 HCR has the least deep Cabinet of 26”.
Is it possible to get that below 20”, so there isn’t too much loss of depth behind an AT screen? Width and certainly height is unlimited...

I also suppose it’s best to keep de dev at least 1 foot behind the screen.

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post #214 of 934 Old 01-23-2020, 03:52 PM
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Would this box work for the

Dayton Audio TIT400C-4 15'' Titanic Mk III Subwoofer 4 Ohm ? I just bought one and need a really low hitting box for my HT setup


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post #215 of 934 Old 01-23-2020, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan3 View Post
For a 21” driver, it seems that the Mini Devastator 21" Version 2 HCR has the least deep Cabinet of 26”.

Is it possible to get that below 20”, so there isn’t too much loss of depth behind an AT screen? Width and certainly height is unlimited...



I also suppose it’s best to keep de dev at least 1 foot behind the screen.
A BMD at 76 x 25.4 x 24 is doable and not released. 76 x 30 x 20 might be doable, but the sub depth could potentially be an issue.

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post #216 of 934 Old 01-23-2020, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hessc50 View Post
Would this box work for the

Dayton Audio TIT400C-4 15'' Titanic Mk III Subwoofer 4 Ohm ? I just bought one and need a really low hitting box for my HT setup


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Could you post T/S parameters please?

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post #217 of 934 Old 01-23-2020, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
Could you post T/S parameters please?


Product Specifications
Nominal Diameter15"Power Handling (RMS)800 Watts
Power Handling (max)1600 WattsImpedance4 ohms
Frequency Response19 to 500 HzSensitivity88.7 dB 1W/1m
Voice Coil Diameter2.5"Magnet Weight136 oz.
Thiele-Small Parameters
Resonant Frequency (Fs)24.2 HzDC Resistance (Re)3.8 ohms
Voice Coil Inductance (Le)3.11 mHMechanical Q (Qms)6.75
Electromagnetic Q (Qes)0.52Total Q (Qts)0.49
Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas)5.46 ft.³Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms)0.17 mm/N
BL Product (BL)16.8 TmDiaphragm Mass Inc. Airload (Mms)253.9g
Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax)20.5 mmSurface Area of Cone (Sd)804.2 cm²


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post #218 of 934 Old 01-23-2020, 11:31 PM
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Sorry I think I put the info for the Mkiii
I have the MK4


Thiele-Small Parameters
Resonant Frequency (Fs)16.8 HzDC Resistance (Re)3.5 ohms
Voice Coil Inductance (Le)3.6 mHMechanical Q (Qms)5.96
Electromagnetic Q (Qes)0.33Total Q (Qts)0.32
Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas)7.80 ft.³Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms)0.22 mm/N
BL Product (BL)21.3 TmDiaphragm Mass Inc. Airload (Mms)323.5g
Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax)19 mmSurface Area of Cone (Sd)822.2 cm²
Materials of Construction
Cone MaterialPaper / KevlarSurround MaterialSantoprene
Voice Coil Wire MaterialCopperBasket / Frame MaterialCast Aluminum
Magnet MaterialFerrite


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post #219 of 934 Old 01-24-2020, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
I am not sure if you could get the sub out, that is the tricky part in designing a BMD with a fold. The box would probably go 5 or 6" deeper than the Nano if I attempted to design it and lose a few inches in height.
You are talking about the Nano BMD, right?

Not the bottom port question ?

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post #220 of 934 Old 01-24-2020, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
You are talking about the Nano BMD, right?

Not the bottom port question ?
Kinda both, the bottom openings could be doable, but the length of the port could cause an issue since it is extended by running under the horn section. The box height would most likely need tweaking and that would also effect the box depth.
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post #221 of 934 Old 01-24-2020, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
Kinda both, the bottom openings could be doable, but the length of the port could cause an issue since it is extended by running under the horn section. The box height would most likely need tweaking and that would also effect the box depth.
Noted. Never mind then, you could just point the port to the sides if you stacked them laying down. Problem solved

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post #222 of 934 Old 01-24-2020, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
A BMD at 76 x 25.4 x 24 is doable and not released. 76 x 30 x 20 might be doable, but the sub depth could potentially be an issue.

Interesting! "doable"... you mean for the sub to work well or if it's still too deep? 76 x 30 x 20 would be really perfect, if not 76 x 25.4 x 24 is also very interesting.

Am I correct that devs 21" works with both B&C and Lavoce driver models without change? THought i read it here somewhere to my surprise. I now have 2 18Hz ported 21DS115's but Lavoce can be found cheaper here in Europe.
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post #223 of 934 Old 01-24-2020, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jan3 View Post
Interesting! "doable"... you mean for the sub to work well or if it's still too deep? 76 x 30 x 20 would be really perfect, if not 76 x 25.4 x 24 is also very interesting.

Am I correct that devs 21" works with both B&C and Lavoce driver models without change? THought i read it here somewhere to my surprise. I now have 2 18Hz ported 21DS115's but Lavoce can be found cheaper here in Europe.

Doable, the 20" depth could potentially work for that BMD HCR model. It would eat up more material than the one I posted at the 25.5x24 width and depth. The 21DS115 usually has the best looking response out of any of the subs, not that the SAN214.50 is bad by any means.

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post #224 of 934 Old 01-24-2020, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
Doable, the 20" depth could potentially work for that BMD HCR model. It would eat up more material than the one I posted at the 25.5x24 width and depth. The 21DS115 usually has the best looking response out of any of the subs, not that the SAN214.50 is bad by any means.
It's ok to spend more material, and I'll stay with the 21DS115, no compromises. I have time as my new house with basement is under construction, very excited though. Are you planning to release plans for this model / does your software allow to convert with a click on a button to metric? MDF in Europe is 18mm or 0.708661 inch

Very much appreciate your contributions!
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post #225 of 934 Old 01-24-2020, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jan3 View Post
It's ok to spend more material, and I'll stay with the 21DS115, no compromises. I have time as my new house with basement is under construction, very excited though. Are you planning to release plans for this model / does your software allow to convert with a click on a button to metric? MDF in Europe is 18mm or 0.708661 inch

Very much appreciate your contributions!

I am going finish up that BMD HCR at some point. It does take some time to readjust a box to different dimensions and calculate the math once again. For changing a box up into mm vs in I can send the CAD file over when a design is finished up. FreeCAD is not too terrible to learn, HR took me a lot longer. You can change the unit of measure, I think it defaults to mm. Then adjust the panels to 18mm thick then move them into the correct alignments. There is a spread sheet that was used in a build thread for Dual BMDs, you could also adjust the panel sizes that way for 18mm.
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post #226 of 934 Old 01-24-2020, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hessc50 View Post
Sorry I think I put the info for the Mkiii
I have the MK4


Thiele-Small Parameters
Resonant Frequency (Fs)16.8 HzDC Resistance (Re)3.5 ohms
Voice Coil Inductance (Le)3.6 mHMechanical Q (Qms)5.96
Electromagnetic Q (Qes)0.33Total Q (Qts)0.32
Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas)7.80 ft.³Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms)0.22 mm/N
BL Product (BL)21.3 TmDiaphragm Mass Inc. Airload (Mms)323.5g
Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax)19 mmSurface Area of Cone (Sd)822.2 cm²
Materials of Construction
Cone MaterialPaper / KevlarSurround MaterialSantoprene
Voice Coil Wire MaterialCopperBasket / Frame MaterialCast Aluminum
Magnet MaterialFerrite


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ran a few sims for you.

Micro FR:
900W input power. 18hz 2nd order BW HPF
Cone excursion: 19mm
Port Velocity: 31m/s


Mini v2:
900w input power. 18hz 2nd order BW HPF
Cone excursion: 21mm
Port Velocity: 40m/s


Chris
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post #227 of 934 Old 01-24-2020, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Ran a few sims for you.

Micro FR:
900W input power. 18hz 2nd order BW HPF
Cone excursion: 19mm
Port Velocity: 31m/s


Mini v2:
900w input power. 18hz 2nd order BW HPF
Cone excursion: 21mm
Port Velocity: 40m/s


Chris


Thanks Chris.
What box would I use? I also have a Dayton 12HO driver that I’m going to make a box for


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post #228 of 934 Old 01-24-2020, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by hessc50 View Post
Thanks Chris.
What box would I use? I also have a Dayton 12HO driver that I’m going to make a box for


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Up to you. The mini v2 response looks better, but port velocity is stupid high.

I can model it in the 21 mini if you want.

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post #229 of 934 Old 01-25-2020, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Up to you. The mini v2 response looks better, but port velocity is stupid high.

I can model it in the 21 mini if you want.

Chris

I am surprised a 15 inch woofer pushed port velocity that much, it must have a pretty decent motor.

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post #230 of 934 Old 01-25-2020, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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@Nalleh how space constrained is your project? I am tempted with those 12"s to design something that handles two of them eventually

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post #231 of 934 Old 01-25-2020, 12:14 PM
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I am surprised a 15 inch woofer pushed port velocity that much, it must have a pretty decent motor.

20mm on 900w, I’m thinking yes.

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post #232 of 934 Old 01-25-2020, 12:24 PM
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@Nalleh how space constrained is your project? I am tempted with those 12"s to design something that handles two of them eventually
Well, i have JBL’s in VNF’s today and they are 1cf per driver, so compared to that, a Nano Dev will be huge, LOL.

But yeah, i think multiple 12" in the same box would save som materials and space, espesially since the driver is so cheap. I actually mentioned multiple driver Dev in my first question about these

Were you thinking two side by side?

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post #233 of 934 Old 01-25-2020, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, i have JBL’s in VNF’s today and they are 1cf per driver, so compared to that, a Nano Dev will be huge, LOL.



But yeah, i think multiple 12" in the same box would save som materials and space, espesially since the driver is so cheap. I actually mentioned multiple driver Dev in my first question about these



Were you thinking two side by side?
I am thinking over under would work well. The port would get moved to the back like the Mini 18v1. The S1 S2 meeting point would get moved to the center point between both woofers. The right side gets a steeper roll-off, but the design is not hurting for right corner reach. Displacement would get bumped up since two subs will need more volume to breathe, the box gets some deeper. I could see how wide a side by side box would get. Does wider work better than deeper? If you want to be the beta tester I will design it the best I can for your space requirements.
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post #234 of 934 Old 01-25-2020, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
I am thinking over under would work well. The port would get moved to the back like the Mini 18v1. The S1 S2 meeting point would get moved to the center point between both woofers. The right side gets a steeper roll-off, but the design is not hurting for right corner reach. Displacement would get bumped up since two subs will need more volume to breathe, the box gets some deeper. I could see how wide a side by side box would get. Does wider work better than deeper? If you want to be the beta tester I will design it the best I can for your space requirements.
Ok, i didn’t think a over/under would work, as the horn lengths would be different for each driver, but if simply was the centerpoint between them, i guess it is ok then

Side by side would just be like two Nano Dev beside each other i guess, so the design is pretty much there already, but you save some plywood building just one box.

My reasoning for multiple driver Dev is since it is just a 12" , you would probably need more than one to make a impact, compared to its big brothers, so either more drivers per box or easy to stack/place.

But like i said, i won’t be able to start any building for months yet, so no rush on my part.

Thanks again for taking the time to do all this, i am in awe at the speed you keep pumping these out, LOL.
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post #235 of 934 Old 01-25-2020, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hessc50 View Post
Thanks Chris.
What box would I use? I also have a Dayton 12HO driver that I’m going to make a box for


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Fired up hornresp to try a skinny submax for a riser.
While I was on it, modeled the mini dev 21 v2 for ya.

900w input power
19hz 2nd order BW HPF
19mm excursion
27m/s port velocity



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post #236 of 934 Old 01-27-2020, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
I am thinking over under would work well. [snip]......

So you know the next leap will be a QUAD 12" DEV..... since they are so cheap and all.....LOL.


LaVoce 21 SD = 1661 CM2


4- JBL GT5-12D SD= 2120 CM2
4- JBL CX1200 SD= 2204 CM2
4- JBL STAGE 1210 SD= 2123.6 CM2
* These are some of the variants in that family of woofers...

Just sayin'


Juju

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post #237 of 934 Old 01-27-2020, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jujuman200 View Post
So you know the next leap will be a QUAD 12" DEV..... since they are so cheap and all.....LOL.


LaVoce 21 SD = 1661 CM2


4- JBL 12" {GT5-12D} SD= 2120 CM2
* This is one of the variants in that family of woofers...

Just sayin'


Juju
The thought went through my head. It would be a big BMD variant, woofers need to breathe. I have not simmed it yet, yet....
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post #238 of 934 Old 01-27-2020, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
The thought went through my head. It would be a big BMD variant, woofers need to breathe. I have not simmed it yet, yet....

Four of those GT5 will run you $250-ish.... for more SD than a 21"..... I'll take it. Quad 12" LFE [cough, cough]...LOL


The SI HS-24 SD= 2077.8 CM2.... QUAD 12" SD= 2120 CM2..... interesting observation.....
** NO way that I am implying that they will equal to the task of that BEAST of a 24"..... just an observation.....

I'd be happy just to equal the 21"..... one can dream.....
The wood is cut for my 2nd LFE just trying to decide which way to go......


Juju
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Sub List: 1- Red Five Mini Devastator 18" w/460HO, 1- Red Five Devastator LFE 21", 1- BOSS platform [The Hideaway Theater], 1- 21" "Marty" tuned to 20Hz, 1- 18" "Marty" tuned to 17Hz
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Last edited by jujuman200; 01-27-2020 at 03:38 PM.
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post #239 of 934 Old 01-27-2020, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jujuman200 View Post
Four of those GT5 will run you $250-ish.... for more SD than a 21"..... I'll take it. Quad 12" LFE [cough, cough]...LOL


The SI HS-24 SD= 2077.8 CM2.... QUAD 12" SD= 2120 CM2..... interesting observation.....
** NO way that I am implying that they will equal to the task of that BEAST of a 24"..... just an observation.....

I'd be happy just to equal the 21"..... one can dream.....
The wood is cut for my 2nd LFE just trying to decide which way to go......


Juju
I might have some research on this one or a PM or two to send. I would rather not mess up actual compression ratios. It would side by side over under. The side by side has me questioning the math.
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post #240 of 934 Old 01-27-2020, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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@LTD02 John would you happen to know how quad 12"s would work in a Devastator? Would the compression ratio take combined Sd into consideration or behave the same as a single woofer?
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