Does this Winisd Model look right? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
  • 1 Post By trojantrow
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 21 Old 10-19-2019, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ratm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,998
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Does this Winisd Model look right?

So I was trying to get a feel for Winisd before I pull the trigger on drivers. I was all set on getting the FiCar Ht3 and came across the SI HST-18 (which looks like a beast). And for the fun of it, I also added the UM 18-22. I entered the values exactly as they are listed on each brands website. For consistency, I choose a 6 cubic foot box (which I have modeled in another post). All are being driven with 1000 watts


Blue is SI 18
Red is Ficar
Green is Dayton.


Each is posted with a 15hz Highpass filter. I pulled that out of thin air. So if its wrong, let me know and I will model it again.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Winisd.png
Views:	35
Size:	63.4 KB
ID:	2629192  

Last edited by ratm; 10-19-2019 at 07:16 AM.
ratm is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 Old 10-19-2019, 07:45 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 2
The model looks ok for the graph you are on.

But you need to compare cone excursions.

It looks to me that these drivers all need different box sizes to each other to achieve the same overall Q value.

What would be a better test for you is to do the following.

1. Figure out what the biggest enclosure size you are happy with ( assuming 6cu ft)

2. Decide what overall Q you are happy with. ( depends on room and usage) maybe you can explain more.

3 . Se what box size is needed for each of the woofers to achieve the desired Q witching WinISD and feed them with 1000W.

Then compare how close all drivers are to Xmas.

The one that’s furthest away from Xmax is the best driver.

I say best driver for output. Doesn’t really say what’s the best driver period. All depends on the distortion created at certain Xmas compared to another.

For use with music and HT and going sealed, I tend to go for a lower Q. Like 0.57 or something like that.

I do this because room gain takes care out the output loss from 40 to 100hz. And it’s actually better as it rolls off sooner but not as steep. So the in room peaks are easier to tame with eq.

But the lower Q driver will extend lower.

If you wanted the best output 30hz and above, feed with more power and put in a smaller box.

If you want ridiculous volumes across all frequencies you want the big box, big xmax big power.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
trojantrow is offline  
post #3 of 21 Old 10-19-2019, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ratm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,998
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by trojantrow View Post
The model looks ok for the graph you are on.

But you need to compare cone excursions.

It looks to me that these drivers all need different box sizes to each other to achieve the same overall Q value.

What would be a better test for you is to do the following.
1. Figure out what the biggest enclosure size you are happy with ( assuming 6cu ft)

6 foot is what Fi Car is recommending for their driver. I modeled a box I am happy with

2. Decide what overall Q you are happy with. ( depends on room and usage) maybe you can explain more.

I am not sure what Overall Q means. My room is 14 x 25 with a cathedral ceiling in the front (14 ft wall) and sloping towards my LP. It will be for 95% TV and movies and the occasional music session.


3 . Se what box size is needed for each of the woofers to achieve the desired Q witching WinISD and feed them with 1000W.

Then compare how close all drivers are to Xmas.

The one that’s furthest away from Xmax is the best driver.

I say best driver for output. Doesn’t really say what’s the best driver period. All depends on the distortion created at certain Xmas compared to another.

For use with music and HT and going sealed, I tend to go for a lower Q. Like 0.57 or something like that.

I do this because room gain takes care out the output loss from 40 to 100hz. And it’s actually better as it rolls off sooner but not as steep. So the in room peaks are easier to tame with eq.

But the lower Q driver will extend lower.

If you wanted the best output 30hz and above, feed with more power and put in a smaller box.

If you want ridiculous volumes across all frequencies you want the big box, big xmax big power.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

See above.
ratm is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 21 Old 10-19-2019, 09:53 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
smcmillan2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Farmington, MI, USA
Posts: 2,233
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 987 Post(s)
Liked: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post
For consistency, I choose a 6 cubic foot box (which I have modeled in another post). All are being driven with 1000 watts.

Each is posted with a 15hz Highpass filter. I pulled that out of thin air. So if its wrong, let me know and I will model it again.
Drop the HPF. With 1kw none of the drivers exceeds Xmax in 6cuft boxes.

Other than that, your model matches what I came up with. The UM18 is best bang-for-buck, but 1kw on it leaves less headroom than the others (usable excursion on the UM18 is ~28mm according to information posted in other threads). If you have the money to spend on the other drivers and amps to drive them, the HT-3 is the better performer, although the HST-18 digs slightly deeper.

Here's what I get with each driver at xmax:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Capture.PNG
Views:	47
Size:	49.1 KB
ID:	2629298  

Sub builds: Yet another Infinity 1260 build | Twins! | Modified V.B.S.S. build | UM12-22 builds | AV stand and sealed UM18s

Speaker builds: DIYSG HTM-10 build | DIYSG Volt-6 build | DIYSG Fusion-8 builds
smcmillan2 is online now  
post #5 of 21 Old 10-19-2019, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ratm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,998
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Thanks Man. I was looking at the Crown XLS2502 to drive a pair of them. Thoughts?
ratm is online now  
post #6 of 21 Old 10-19-2019, 11:15 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
smcmillan2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Farmington, MI, USA
Posts: 2,233
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 987 Post(s)
Liked: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post
Thanks Man. I was looking at the Crown XLS2502 to drive a pair of them. Thoughts?
Depends on which drivers, desired SPL and what you plan on using for EQ (miniDSP?). There's a lot left on the table if you go with the HT-3 or HST-18, less if using the UM18s.

I think I recall the measured output of the NX6000 to be ~1500wpc at 4 ohms. Grab an NX6000D and you've got the power you need to drive a pair of any of them to at or near Xmax, and DSP to boot. Note that the NX6k isn't 2 ohm stable so you'll need to provide 4 ohm loads if you go that route.

Sub builds: Yet another Infinity 1260 build | Twins! | Modified V.B.S.S. build | UM12-22 builds | AV stand and sealed UM18s

Speaker builds: DIYSG HTM-10 build | DIYSG Volt-6 build | DIYSG Fusion-8 builds
smcmillan2 is online now  
post #7 of 21 Old 10-19-2019, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ratm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,998
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Depends on which drivers, desired SPL and what you plan on using for EQ (miniDSP?). There's a lot left on the table if you go with the HT-3 or HST-18, less if using the UM18s.

I think I recall the measured output of the NX6000 to be ~1500wpc at 4 ohms. Grab an NX6000D and you've got the power you need to drive a pair of any of them to at or near Xmax, and DSP to boot. Note that the NX6k isn't 2 ohm stable so you'll need to provide 4 ohm loads if you go that route.

Thanks man. I think I have settled on the FiCar HT3. I hear what you are saying about the NX6000D. Would it be better to get the drivers in 4 ohm and run them with the NX6k? Or get them in 2 ohm and run them with this Crown Amp



https://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-CRO-XLS250o


Both have DSP and I have read that the Crown amps are noticeably quieter. I would have no problem doing the fan mod on the NX6k.
ratm is online now  
post #8 of 21 Old 10-19-2019, 12:48 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 2
If it were me I would get the nx6000d and mid the fans to make them quiet.. from what I’ve read, no other amp can touch the nx6000d for DSP function at the same price point.

4ohms is better than 2. You get more power with 2 but subjectively more distortion and definitely more heat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
smcmillan2 likes this.
trojantrow is offline  
post #9 of 21 Old 10-19-2019, 04:28 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
smcmillan2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Farmington, MI, USA
Posts: 2,233
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 987 Post(s)
Liked: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post
Thanks man. I think I have settled on the FiCar HT3. I hear what you are saying about the NX6000D. Would it be better to get the drivers in 4 ohm and run them with the NX6k? Or get them in 2 ohm and run them with this Crown Amp



https://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-CRO-XLS250o


Both have DSP and I have read that the Crown amps are noticeably quieter. I would have no problem doing the fan mod on the NX6k.
I have no experience with the Crown amps, but from what I have read the DSP on the Behringers (which I own 2 of for full disclaimer) is superior.

And as trojantrow mentioned, driving them at 4 ohms is easier on the amp vs. 2 ohm.

Sub builds: Yet another Infinity 1260 build | Twins! | Modified V.B.S.S. build | UM12-22 builds | AV stand and sealed UM18s

Speaker builds: DIYSG HTM-10 build | DIYSG Volt-6 build | DIYSG Fusion-8 builds
smcmillan2 is online now  
post #10 of 21 Old 10-19-2019, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ratm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,998
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
I have no experience with the Crown amps, but from what I have read the DSP on the Behringers (which I own 2 of for full disclaimer) is superior.

And as trojantrow mentioned, driving them at 4 ohms is easier on the amp vs. 2 ohm.

Fantastic!
ratm is online now  
post #11 of 21 Old 10-19-2019, 07:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Gorilla Killa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Next in line for a coveted Red Button
Posts: 3,096
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1526 Post(s)
Liked: 2201
Out of all of them the UM will give the flatter response and has the lowest inductance. I don't even think it needs a lossy model and the difference is small. Fi doesn't list Le so its a guess but they are known to exhibit the hump.

FIHT3 6 cuft


HST18 4cuft


UM18 4 cuft

8hz ULF TR for the masses and the Cashless. Like a BOSS


If you can't stand behind our troops stand in front of them
Gorilla Killa is offline  
post #12 of 21 Old 10-20-2019, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ratm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,998
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Out of all of them the UM will give the flatter response and has the lowest inductance. I don't even think it needs a lossy model and the difference is small. Fi doesn't list Le so its a guess but they are known to exhibit the hump.

FIHT3 6 cuft


HST18 4cuft


UM18 4 cuft

I can't see any of those pics really. Another question. Does the UM18 or HST graph change if I go with a 6 cuft box? Or should I stick with 4 cuft?
ratm is online now  
post #13 of 21 Old 10-20-2019, 10:26 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Gorilla Killa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Next in line for a coveted Red Button
Posts: 3,096
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1526 Post(s)
Liked: 2201
Those sizes give you a qtc .7 which is what you want for sealed.

Pics showed in your quote for me.
Gorilla Killa is offline  
post #14 of 21 Old 10-20-2019, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ratm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,998
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Liked: 107
I see them too. I just can’t make them any bigger to see them
Better
ratm is online now  
post #15 of 21 Old 10-20-2019, 10:44 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Personally I think the Desired QSC value is dependant on personal preference and intended usage.

For movies where bass goes very deep I recommend a lower QTC of around 0.55 to 0.6. (Larger box)

The bass will start to roll off sooner but will go lower. Room gain will make up for the earlier roll off.

And you will get more output at lower frequencies.

Subjectively, I’ve also heard that the lower Q sub will be more musical as the amp has more control over the cone. Rather than the air in the box having too much control over it.

Watch your Xmas though. Requires less power to reach xmax


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
trojantrow is offline  
post #16 of 21 Old 10-20-2019, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ratm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,998
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Thanks Trojan. I’m
Not looking to get too technical. I’ll stick with whatever the manufacture recommends.
ratm is online now  
post #17 of 21 Old 10-21-2019, 02:59 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 18,834
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2579 Post(s)
Liked: 2794
Like I said before the go to bang for buck is the UM18. It measured very well on Databass. When you simulate these remember the Um18 has a rated x-max like other pro drivers where the HT drivers rate them differently which is higher x-max. To compare fairly as output goes to x-max you would use 28mm of x-max for the UM18. The databass numbers show this as it is close to higher x-max drivers.

Building the room, speakers, and subs.
MKtheater is offline  
post #18 of 21 Old 10-21-2019, 03:32 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Gorilla Killa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Next in line for a coveted Red Button
Posts: 3,096
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1526 Post(s)
Liked: 2201
I agree, UM18.

FI


HST


UM18

8hz ULF TR for the masses and the Cashless. Like a BOSS


If you can't stand behind our troops stand in front of them
Gorilla Killa is offline  
post #19 of 21 Old 10-21-2019, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ratm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,998
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
I agree, UM18.

FI


HST


UM18

Thanks GK!


What do the different lines signify (red vs grey)?
ratm is online now  
post #20 of 21 Old 10-21-2019, 05:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Gorilla Killa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Next in line for a coveted Red Button
Posts: 3,096
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1526 Post(s)
Liked: 2201
Red lines are adjusted for inductance on the motors, loss of Bl in short. Complex topic so Google if you are inclined The UM is well designed and probably doesn't need to be run with that feature but i did it anyway.

8hz ULF TR for the masses and the Cashless. Like a BOSS


If you can't stand behind our troops stand in front of them
Gorilla Killa is offline  
post #21 of 21 Old 10-22-2019, 04:39 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ratm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,998
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Red lines are adjusted for inductance on the motors, loss of Bl in short. Complex topic so Google if you are inclined The UM is well designed and probably doesn't need to be run with that feature but i did it anyway.

Thank you!
ratm is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off