My DIY IXL 18.4 Sub Bild I have questions still?? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 31 Old 10-20-2019, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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New Subject onto Buttkickers now..

Hey All,

I am currently interested in doing what was in the BEQ thread but before I start on that I was wondering a couple things..

The sub consists of the following::

1. Mach 5 IXL 18.4 Subwoofer in a 12cu. ft. box ported.
2. Behringer iNuke 3000 DSP Amplifier..

here are the T/S Specs for the subwoofer:


Thiele-Small parameters:

Fs = 17.7 Hz
Re = 3.4 ohms[dc]
Le = 6.09 mH
Qt = 0.37
Qes = 0.39
Qms = 5.59
Mms = 434.34 grams
Rms = 8.69 kg/s
Cms = 0.184 mm/N
Vas = 274.1 liters
Sd= 1029.22 cm^2
Bl = 20.51 Tm
Lp(2.83V/1m) = 91.60 dB
xMax is 22mm


When I built this thing I had a thread at another forum and still had unanswered questions. I am going to see if I can find WinISD again and input the specs and see what I come up with..

I am currently trying to find out what I could push Wattage wise the the sub without damaging it.. I know the subwoofer was rated at 800W RMS.. I remember in the old thread some guys stated with the box I was building I could put in 1000W into it??

Now I never did that and kept the Watts to 800 most times.. I think for a while I did not have the Peak limiter set and ran it at max wattage which was 880w..

my biggest question is how low am I going with this sub and how would I go about finding out how low and loud does the subwoofer play at currently..

I figure I am going to have to get reaquantied with REW and get a new U-Mik if that is the case then I will but I am just trying to determine how low I can go and if something is missing.. I keep reading the posts in the DIY sub section about some feeling the lower Hz which I really don't or maybe I just don't know I feel it lol!!

I did have 2 of these IXL's but since sold the 2nd one and just kept one, I really regret doing that now..

So how can I find out how low can I go is what is driving me mad.. I am thinking since I have and use the iNuke DSP I am missing out on some ULF?? I do have the shelf set to go below 20hz and is at -6 there was a sticky on it here and the other forum how to do it. But I am unsure if it really works as it is supposed too..

I need to find a way to test the Hz range below 20 ?? I just downloaded WinISD and it has a tone generator. If I use that with a laptop connected to my AVR will that work ok?

My Humble HT: Integra 40.3 Audyssey Calibrated / Denon 1930Ci SACD/DVD-A Player / Sony 3600 3D blu Ray / Behringer iNuke 3000DSP / Mach 5 IXL 18.4 Subwoofer / Optoma HD142x 3D REady 1080P DLP Projector / 92" 16:9 Manual screen

Last edited by The_Nephilim1; 10-24-2019 at 09:15 PM. Reason: removed old title as it is not relevant now..
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post #2 of 31 Old 10-21-2019, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Dayton Audio 18" Ultimax Subwoofer, If I bought two of these would it be better then my 1 IXL 18.4??

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...ndle--300-7099


I ask because I think there is something wrong with the IXL. I am going to test it tomorrow with the tone generator and see how low and loud it gets.. I will be using a inuke 3000dsp to drive both Daytons..

My Humble HT: Integra 40.3 Audyssey Calibrated / Denon 1930Ci SACD/DVD-A Player / Sony 3600 3D blu Ray / Behringer iNuke 3000DSP / Mach 5 IXL 18.4 Subwoofer / Optoma HD142x 3D REady 1080P DLP Projector / 92" 16:9 Manual screen
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post #3 of 31 Old 10-22-2019, 07:54 AM
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If you want to see what the theoretical max is, watch this video:

You don't want to cross the red line or you will likely damage the driver.

You can also use WinISD to test theoretical max SPL using your amp and amp output.

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post #4 of 31 Old 10-22-2019, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes I had modeled the IXL with Win ISD and all is fine there. I am trying to determine if there is either somethinng wrong physically with the subwoofer or amp settings.

I, had emailed Mach 5 and the wattage of the Subwoofer is in fact at 800w RMS.. so I changed the wattage on the iNuke and what I need to do now is to get my laptop with WinISD and use the tone generator to see If I can get a 16hz tone to play and how loaud it can do that..

Like I was saying in my first post I think something might be wrong with the sub itself maybe I am unsure..

Right now I have a bigger room then I was when I first built the IXL, Right now I am downstairs in an unfinished basement with no walls... I either have a defective subwoofer or the space is too big for 1 IXL 18.4..

that is why I posted mmy 2nd post as I can get 2 of those Daytons and build the box as the wood is all cut for me I just need to assemble it and have 2 subs vs 1.. I was just wondering if those Daytons would be better then my IXL 18.4..

I will run the numbers on those daytons.

Thursday I am going to get my laptop and run the signal generator with ULF too see if my sub can infact play those frequencies.. I kinda answered my questions with some research but just need to test it out with my laptop on Thursday I will know for sure.. But I was unsure if the tone would play properly wth the AVR connected to the laptop via HDMI.


EDIT: I just tried to model the Ultimax 18" and I keep getting floating poin errors I tried both version of Win ISD.

My Humble HT: Integra 40.3 Audyssey Calibrated / Denon 1930Ci SACD/DVD-A Player / Sony 3600 3D blu Ray / Behringer iNuke 3000DSP / Mach 5 IXL 18.4 Subwoofer / Optoma HD142x 3D REady 1080P DLP Projector / 92" 16:9 Manual screen

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post #5 of 31 Old 10-22-2019, 08:16 PM
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You can use the tone generator in REW with your laptop connected to the AVR, to see what the low notes sound like.

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post #6 of 31 Old 10-22-2019, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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OK Win ISD is nearly unusable.. I seen 1 program called BassBox Pro but it costs a lot of money.. is there another programs that are like WinISD that are not too buggy and accurate..




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fackamato View Post
You can use the tone generator in REW with your laptop connected to the AVR, to see what the low notes sound like.

Well I was more wondering how accurate it would be going through the laptop to the AVR? I would like to do this as I think my DSP in the iNuke limits the lower notes really bad to the point nothing is there.

My Humble HT: Integra 40.3 Audyssey Calibrated / Denon 1930Ci SACD/DVD-A Player / Sony 3600 3D blu Ray / Behringer iNuke 3000DSP / Mach 5 IXL 18.4 Subwoofer / Optoma HD142x 3D REady 1080P DLP Projector / 92" 16:9 Manual screen

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post #7 of 31 Old 10-22-2019, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1 View Post
Well I was more wondering how accurate it would be going through the laptop to the AVR? I would like to do this as I think my DSP in the iNuke limits the lower notes really bad to the point nothing is there.
Very accurate. However, if you have setup your iNuke to reduce the lower frequencies, that's a different matter.

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post #8 of 31 Old 10-22-2019, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fackamato View Post
Very accurate. However, if you have setup your iNuke to reduce the lower frequencies, that's a different matter.

Well I set it up according to a guide with the shelf filter to go below 20Hz with a -4shelf or whatever it was called.. So it should at least do a 16Hz note.. now if it does not I will know something is up with the sub itself or a null I guess..

My Humble HT: Integra 40.3 Audyssey Calibrated / Denon 1930Ci SACD/DVD-A Player / Sony 3600 3D blu Ray / Behringer iNuke 3000DSP / Mach 5 IXL 18.4 Subwoofer / Optoma HD142x 3D REady 1080P DLP Projector / 92" 16:9 Manual screen
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post #9 of 31 Old 10-22-2019, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1 View Post
Well I set it up according to a guide with the shelf filter to go below 20Hz with a -4shelf or whatever it was called.. So it should at least do a 16Hz note.. now if it does not I will know something is up with the sub itself or a null I guess..
I don't understand what you are trying to do. Are you trying to see if the sub can play a low note? Just play the note and listen, turn it up.

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post #10 of 31 Old 10-22-2019, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fackamato View Post
I don't understand what you are trying to do. Are you trying to see if the sub can play a low note? Just play the note and listen, turn it up.

Yes, Basically I am trying to determine if it can play a low note. I am going to try and do that tomorrow afternoon. I was going to do it thursday but I should be able to do it tomorrow..

What I was trying to explain was with the inuke the lower limit is 20Hz but there was a guide on another forum that showed you how to lower the filter to get the lower notes this sub should be capable of..

I guess what started this off was looking at some others posts on the star wars movies they seemed to say they felt alot of the bass. well currently I do not and I thought either I have a really bad null which I will need to get REW and a U-Mik to determine that. But it might be that the limit on the inuke DSP kills this sub and I should get a mini DSP.

Or the subwoofer is defective or just plane broken and I would need to look into getting a new sub or 2..

Thank you for the help I know the way now.

My Humble HT: Integra 40.3 Audyssey Calibrated / Denon 1930Ci SACD/DVD-A Player / Sony 3600 3D blu Ray / Behringer iNuke 3000DSP / Mach 5 IXL 18.4 Subwoofer / Optoma HD142x 3D REady 1080P DLP Projector / 92" 16:9 Manual screen
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post #11 of 31 Old 10-22-2019, 11:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fackamato View Post
I don't understand what you are trying to do. Are you trying to see if the sub can play a low note? Just play the note and listen, turn it up.


this is what I was trying to explain about the iNukes DSP settings:



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...z-dcx2496.html

My Humble HT: Integra 40.3 Audyssey Calibrated / Denon 1930Ci SACD/DVD-A Player / Sony 3600 3D blu Ray / Behringer iNuke 3000DSP / Mach 5 IXL 18.4 Subwoofer / Optoma HD142x 3D REady 1080P DLP Projector / 92" 16:9 Manual screen
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post #12 of 31 Old 10-23-2019, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1 View Post
EDIT: I just tried to model the Ultimax 18" and I keep getting floating poin errors I tried both version of Win ISD.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...to-winisd.html

There are a number of tutorials on WinISD, here's one that is regularly pointed to: https://www.hometheatershack.com/for...inisd-pro.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1
OK Win ISD is nearly unusable.. I seen 1 program called BassBox Pro but it costs a lot of money.. is there another programs that are like WinISD that are not too buggy and accurate.
I have not experienced the "buggy" you describe with WinISD in the 5+ years I have been using it. What specifically are you finding buggy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1
What I was trying to explain was with the inuke the lower limit is 20Hz but there was a guide on another forum that showed you how to lower the filter to get the lower notes this sub should be capable of.
Incorrect. The lowest HPF you can natively apply is 20Hz. The link you already provided is a work-around to get the HPF effectively lower.

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post #13 of 31 Old 10-23-2019, 07:18 AM
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Okay, so just an extended HPF. But yes, a mic and REW is certainly the way to go!

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post #14 of 31 Old 10-23-2019, 09:44 AM
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Were you bridging the 3000DSP into the IXL, or just running it off one channel? If you were just running one channel, you wouldn't need to limit voltage, but probably excursion. If you were running bridged, you most certainly cooked your woofer.

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post #15 of 31 Old 10-23-2019, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jevchance View Post
Were you bridging the 3000DSP into the IXL, or just running it off one channel? If you were just running one channel, you wouldn't need to limit voltage, but probably excursion. If you were running bridged, you most certainly cooked your woofer.
I was running single channel I never bridged the amp

Quote:
Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...to-winisd.html

There are a number of tutorials on WinISD, here's one that is regularly pointed to: https://www.hometheatershack.com/for...inisd-pro.html



I have not experienced the "buggy" you describe with WinISD in the 5+ years I have been using it. What specifically are you finding buggy?

When I enter the T/S Paramaters and I followed the guide when I try and input box size I get errors when doing the Ultimax driver. I had no issues when I modeled the IXL 18.4 just the other day

Incorrect. The lowest HPF you can natively apply is 20Hz. The link you already provided is a work-around to get the HPF effectively lower.

Yes I said the same thing you just said what was incorrect?

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post #16 of 31 Old 10-23-2019, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1 View Post
Yes I said the same thing you just said what was incorrect?

No, you said "the inuke the lower limit is 20Hz" and that is incorrect. It can drive the subwoofer(s) to well into the single digits.


"Lower limit" != HPF.

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post #17 of 31 Old 10-23-2019, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
No, you said "the inuke the lower limit is 20Hz" and that is incorrect. It can drive the subwoofer(s) to well into the single digits.


"Lower limit" != HPF.

Well in the iNuke settings it goes from 20hz to 20Khz. I did not mean that was absolute bottom, it should slope off but with a ported sub it will rolloff quickly. so that is why I lowered it down to 16hz like in that link I posted..

Thank you for your help and all who participated.. I know the way now.
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post #18 of 31 Old 10-23-2019, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1 View Post
Yes I did say that and in the inuke it says 20 to 20K is that not correct? but I am not going to argue semantics with you thank you for the help..
Nor am I with you. I believe your statement is based on the stated sensitivity FR in the manual, but that is not the limiting factor. Look at the Crown amp specs (https://3e7777c294b9bcaa5486-bc95634...5_original.pdf) and you'll see the same thing. My nu3k and NX3k both drive my subs below 20Hz, easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1
I know what I need to do know get a MiniDSP
The miniDSP is a fine choice for adjusting the frequencies to where you need them (PEQ). It has no bearing on how "low" the amp that is driving the subs will go.

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post #19 of 31 Old 10-23-2019, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Nor am I with you. I believe your statement is based on the stated sensitivity FR in the manual, but that is not the limiting factor. Look at the Crown amp specs (https://3e7777c294b9bcaa5486-bc95634...5_original.pdf) and you'll see the same thing. My nu3k and NX3k both drive my subs below 20Hz, easily.



The miniDSP is a fine choice for adjusting the frequencies to where you need them (PEQ). It has no bearing on how "low" the amp that is driving the subs will go.


Well I really need to get the minidsp for the BEQ thread I saw I want to do that with the Blu ray movies. Tomorrow I will run the tests with my laptop and the tone generator to see if in fact my subwoofer is hitting lower then I think it is. I think either it is not enough or the sub has a defect or been damaged. I am in a bigger room then when I first built it so maybe that is why I don't feel it as much now then from before..


I do beleive the area is to big now and I need a 2nd sub..

My Humble HT: Integra 40.3 Audyssey Calibrated / Denon 1930Ci SACD/DVD-A Player / Sony 3600 3D blu Ray / Behringer iNuke 3000DSP / Mach 5 IXL 18.4 Subwoofer / Optoma HD142x 3D REady 1080P DLP Projector / 92" 16:9 Manual screen
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post #20 of 31 Old 10-23-2019, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1 View Post
Well I really need to get the minidsp for the BEQ thread I saw I want to do that with the Blu ray movies.
If you have the subwoofers to make use of the BEQ, that is definitely something to look into. From what I have read in that thread it produces a noticeable difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1
I think either it is not enough or the sub has a defect or been damaged. I am in a bigger room then when I first built it so maybe that is why I don't feel it as much now then from before..
Simple enough to test with an inexpensive SPL meter. Even an SPL app on your phone, while it may not be accurate enough, will show you what the sub is producing. Best would be REW measurements with a calibrated UMIK-1, but not everyone has that ability.

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post #21 of 31 Old 10-23-2019, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
If you have the subwoofers to make use of the BEQ, that is definitely something to look into. From what I have read in that thread it produces a noticeable difference.





Simple enough to test with an inexpensive SPL meter. Even an SPL app on your phone, while it may not be accurate enough, will show you what your sub is producing. Best would be REW measurements with a calibrated UMIK-1, but not everyone has that ability.

Well, I have a IXL 18.4 in a ported 12cu. ft. enclosure with a inuke 3000DSP. This should work. but since I am in a bigger room perhaps another sub would help. in that case I might build 2 new subs that dig low.

My Humble HT: Integra 40.3 Audyssey Calibrated / Denon 1930Ci SACD/DVD-A Player / Sony 3600 3D blu Ray / Behringer iNuke 3000DSP / Mach 5 IXL 18.4 Subwoofer / Optoma HD142x 3D REady 1080P DLP Projector / 92" 16:9 Manual screen

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post #22 of 31 Old 10-24-2019, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I ran the tone generator and under 16 was really low, it rattled the wall upstairs a bit but I did not feel anything almost like nothing was there..

I think I need to get REW and test that way so I can see if there is any volume to the lower Hz sounds.. This is gonna maybe have to wait until after Christmas but I mmight be able to sneak in a uMik before then..

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post #23 of 31 Old 10-24-2019, 01:54 PM
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Well I ran the tone generator and under 16 was really low, it rattled the wall upstairs a bit but I did not feel anything almost like nothing was there..

I think I need to get REW and test that way so I can see if there is any volume to the lower Hz sounds.. This is gonna maybe have to wait until after Christmas but I mmight be able to sneak in a uMik before then..

It sounds like it works just fine. You don't hear 16Hz, you feel it (or in your case, hear the effects of it on the surroundings).


Case closed, all works as intended?

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post #24 of 31 Old 10-24-2019, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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It sounds like it works just fine. You don't hear 16Hz, you feel it (or in your case, hear the effects of it on the surroundings).


Case closed, all works as intended?

YES, Case Closed. I took one last stab at it and I ran 16Hz and turned up the amp volume and WOW blasted out of the house. I tried some lower Hz rates and it shook the house LOL!!

Guess it works after all but I still may decide to build 2 next time

My Humble HT: Integra 40.3 Audyssey Calibrated / Denon 1930Ci SACD/DVD-A Player / Sony 3600 3D blu Ray / Behringer iNuke 3000DSP / Mach 5 IXL 18.4 Subwoofer / Optoma HD142x 3D REady 1080P DLP Projector / 92" 16:9 Manual screen

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post #25 of 31 Old 10-24-2019, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Guys, I think I see what is going on here. for one I am in the basement with a concrete slab and cynder bricks for walls.. so I would need probally a wall of subs and massive amounts of power for the amplifiers..

So, since my pockets are pretty shallow I have figured I could go with some Buttkickers for below 16 Hz.. I have a small problem with that, my seat is a metal framed Futon and I am unsure how well the buttkickers would work on a Futon..

I could experiment with my Buttkicker on my PC chair to get an idea what to do. but I could also ask here if anybody mounted some buttkickers to a Futon how did it work out??

I could go with 2 or 3 gamer buttkickers and connect a new circuit in the basement just for the buttkickers.. but unsure if the Futon will transmit the transducers rumble to the seat efficiently..

My Humble HT: Integra 40.3 Audyssey Calibrated / Denon 1930Ci SACD/DVD-A Player / Sony 3600 3D blu Ray / Behringer iNuke 3000DSP / Mach 5 IXL 18.4 Subwoofer / Optoma HD142x 3D REady 1080P DLP Projector / 92" 16:9 Manual screen

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post #26 of 31 Old 10-24-2019, 08:52 PM
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Are you trying to troubleshoot your sub, or are you trying to get in room response to 10Hz? Completely different subjects.

What are you actually trying to do / aiming for?

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post #27 of 31 Old 10-24-2019, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Are you trying to troubleshoot your sub, or are you trying to get in room response to 10Hz? Completely different subjects.

What are you actually trying to do / aiming for?

1. I am done troubleshooting the Sub it works as it should see post # 25

2. Well not inroom responce with subs as I know that would probally be big money and power hungry and I have neither..

3. What I am trying to do is get a buttkicker or 2 connected to the Futon and get the lower under16Hz with the Buttkickers..


I figured instead of starting yet another post just continue here as I did not want to get blammed for spamming the forums.. !!

My Humble HT: Integra 40.3 Audyssey Calibrated / Denon 1930Ci SACD/DVD-A Player / Sony 3600 3D blu Ray / Behringer iNuke 3000DSP / Mach 5 IXL 18.4 Subwoofer / Optoma HD142x 3D REady 1080P DLP Projector / 92" 16:9 Manual screen

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post #28 of 31 Old 10-24-2019, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fackamato View Post
Are you trying to troubleshoot your sub, or are you trying to get in room response to 10Hz? Completely different subjects.

What are you actually trying to do / aiming for?

1. I am done troubleshooting the Sub it works as it should see post # 25

2. Well not inroom responce with subs as I know that would probally be expensive and power hungry and I have neither..

3. What I am trying to do is get a buttkicker or 2 connected to the Futon and get the lower under16Hz with the Buttkickers.. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]


I figured instead of starting yet another post just continue here as I did not want to get blammed for spamming the forums.. !!
So you're trying to get low end extension. You have already settled for butt kickers it seems. It sure is cheaper than building more subs.

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post #29 of 31 Old 10-24-2019, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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So you're trying to get low end extension. You have already settled for butt kickers it seems. It sure is cheaper than building more subs.

Well it will definetly be cheaper that is for certain.. I am just trying to determine if the Futon will be good enough to put the kickers on there and feel them kick well..

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post #30 of 31 Old 10-24-2019, 10:43 PM
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Well it will definetly be cheaper that is for certain.. I am just trying to determine if the Futon will be good enough to put the kickers on there and feel them kick well..
Why would a futon be any different than chairs? It will actually shake it more, being is it's light and not much to them. You just have to figure out a way to mount them.

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