3 Way Tower Baffle Step Compensation Question - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 23 Old 10-21-2019, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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3 Way Tower Baffle Step Compensation Question

I am working on a crossover for a 3 way tower I'm building with the following drivers.

Dual Denovo Anarchy-708 Woofers with 84.7db @1w/1m
SBAcustics SB15CAC30-4 MidRange with 88db @ 2.83V/1m
Mundorf AMT®19CM1.1-C Tweeter with 91db @ 2.83V/1m

I'm crossing the woofers to the midrange at 450HZ with a 1st order crossover and the midrange to the tweeter at 3khz with 3rd order crossover. My baffle width is 10.5 inches. The BSC formula gives me an f3 of 434 HZ.

Finally my question, do I need a BSC circuit at all or is an LPad on the midrange going to solve my problem? My theory is the baffle step will have little effect on the woofers and it will be just on the midrange, I already have a -3db LPad on the midrange so I'm all set. I've done measurements and I don't don't see a rise in the 400hz to 500hz range.

My math looks like this, two woofers at 84.7db in parallel is 90.7db, the midrange at 88db + 6db for baffle step is 94db - 3db LPad is 91db. Am I wrong?
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post #2 of 23 Old 10-21-2019, 02:04 PM
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@PriamFromTroy I know nothing about building crossovers, but when I was searching for diy speakers to build, I often emailed back and forth with some of the builders (meniscus, diysg, madisound, PE) about porting and bsc. My LCR speakers were going to be sitting in a custom entertainment center cabinet so they told me to build something with very little bsc.

Where do you plan to place these speakers? Near a back or side wall or totally away and in an open area for the speakers to breathe and have no immediate reflections?

hope that helps?
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post #3 of 23 Old 10-21-2019, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PriamFromTroy View Post
I am working on a crossover for a 3 way tower I'm building with the following drivers.

Dual Denovo Anarchy-708 Woofers with 84.7db @1w/1m
SBAcustics SB15CAC30-4 MidRange with 88db @ 2.83V/1m
Mundorf AMT®19CM1.1-C Tweeter with 91db @ 2.83V/1m

I'm crossing the woofers to the midrange at 450HZ with a 1st order crossover and the midrange to the tweeter at 3khz with 3rd order crossover. My baffle width is 10.5 inches. The BSC formula gives me an f3 of 434 HZ.

Finally my question, do I need a BSC circuit at all or is an LPad on the midrange going to solve my problem? My theory is the baffle step will have little effect on the woofers and it will be just on the midrange, I already have a -3db LPad on the midrange so I'm all set. I've done measurements and I don't don't see a rise in the 400hz to 500hz range.

My math looks like this, two woofers at 84.7db in parallel is 90.7db, the midrange at 88db + 6db for baffle step is 94db - 3db LPad is 91db. Am I wrong?

Can you share the measurements?

Did you take these measurements far enough back that baffle step comes into play? At least 2x baffle width...

Your LF driver will certainly be affected if its only crossing first order at 450hz, it will be interacting with your mid for a long time.

The shape and width and even edge treatment on your baffle will dictate how sharp or abrupt any baffle step will be... Best to post more data so we can help. I can even model the baffle step for you and show you what it should be doing to the response.

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post #4 of 23 Old 10-21-2019, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by eriksells916 View Post
@PriamFromTroy I know nothing about building crossovers, but when I was searching for diy speakers to build, I often emailed back and forth with some of the builders (meniscus, diysg, madisound, PE) about porting and bsc. My LCR speakers were going to be sitting in a custom entertainment center cabinet so they told me to build something with very little bsc.

Where do you plan to place these speakers? Near a back or side wall or totally away and in an open area for the speakers to breathe and have no immediate reflections?

hope that helps?
Baffle step differs from boundary interactions.

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post #5 of 23 Old 10-21-2019, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I made the measurements from one meter. The room was pretty bad so graphs are pretty ugly. The baffle is rectangular, 10.5 inches wide with 1 inch 45 degree chamfers on both edges. I'm attaching the frd file (in a zip file because it is to large) and two snapshots of the measurements. 20-20K and 400hz to 600hz. 1/24 smoothing.
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post #6 of 23 Old 10-22-2019, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by PriamFromTroy View Post
I made the measurements from one meter. The room was pretty bad so graphs are pretty ugly. The baffle is rectangular, 10.5 inches wide with 1 inch 45 degree chamfers on both edges. I'm attaching the frd file (in a zip file because it is to large) and two snapshots of the measurements. 20-20K and 400hz to 600hz. 1/24 smoothing.

Bring the speaker out in the room, preferably 4ft+ away from any boundary, set the gating of your measurements to 10ms, and measure at approx 1m. It should look a lot cleaner and be accurate well below your baffle step range.


Are these measurements of the full speaker with crossover?
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post #7 of 23 Old 10-22-2019, 10:51 AM
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Measurements will tell you what to do. I don't have the time to explain how to do good measurements, but yours don't look realistic or useful. Having said that, I do have some observations:

1) BSC is not a discrete circuit. It is simply additional "shaping" included in your crossover network.

2) using an Lpad on a mid crossed low is a bad idea. You'll be sinking a lot of energy into the shunt resistor.

3) what are you using for a crossover?
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post #8 of 23 Old 10-22-2019, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BigJake82 View Post
Bring the speaker out in the room, preferably 4ft+ away from any boundary, set the gating of your measurements to 10ms, and measure at approx 1m. It should look a lot cleaner and be accurate well below your baffle step range.


Are these measurements of the full speaker with crossover?
I'm going to drag it outside this weekend and measure again. I will gate it as you say. This was with the crossover connected.
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post #9 of 23 Old 10-22-2019, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by augerpro View Post
Measurements will tell you what to do. I don't have the time to explain how to do good measurements, but yours don't look realistic or useful. Having said that, I do have some observations:

1) BSC is not a discrete circuit. It is simply additional "shaping" included in your crossover network.

2) using an Lpad on a mid crossed low is a bad idea. You'll be sinking a lot of energy into the shunt resistor.

3) what are you using for a crossover?
1) OK
2) How do I deal with a Mid that is more sensitive than my woofers?
3) Attached
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post #10 of 23 Old 10-22-2019, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by PriamFromTroy View Post
I'm going to drag it outside this weekend and measure again. I will gate it as you say. This was with the crossover connected.

You may want to go on Youtube and have a look at Impulse Audio (tuxedocivic on AVS). He has some good videos on taking measurements and crossover design that might be useful for you.
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post #11 of 23 Old 10-22-2019, 12:47 PM
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The level of the mid will be primarily driven by C1 and R4, with some smaller contribution with how the rest of the components interact with C1 and R4. Trying deleting the shunt resistor and reworking the values to see what you can come up with. I would use the shunt resistor as a last resort.

1.5uH seems awfully small on the woofers. Do you have measurements of just the woofers?
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post #12 of 23 Old 10-23-2019, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by augerpro View Post
The level of the mid will be primarily driven by C1 and R4, with some smaller contribution with how the rest of the components interact with C1 and R4. Trying deleting the shunt resistor and reworking the values to see what you can come up with. I would use the shunt resistor as a last resort.

1.5uH seems awfully small on the woofers. Do you have measurements of just the woofers?
Not sure if you misread the schematic but it is 1.5mH, which all my calculations is what is required for an 450Hz crossover. I will remove the shunt and calculate a series resister to give me the -3db. I assume I should remove the shunt on the tweeter also. Attached are the woofer measurements, they were made in a bigger room, a near field, a 5ms gated and the port measurements. One is 20 to 20k, the other is zoomed in to 30 to 500hz.
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post #13 of 23 Old 10-23-2019, 08:06 AM
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You're correct, I meant mH.

Throw those textbook calculators into the garbage, they're worse than useless. Check out the link mentioned above for youtube videos on measurement. I'm not sure if they go over crossover modeling at all, but you should brush up on that. You have good driver choices, give them the skilled design they deserve.

Here is a good tutorial: http://audio.claub.net/software/FRD_...0to%2010Hz.pdf. Notice that the near field measurements are combined with the baffle diffraction model. If the above plot is what you used for woofers I can see why your inductor is so small - it is missing the 6 dB slope that the baffle diffraction causes.
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post #14 of 23 Old 10-23-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by augerpro View Post
You're correct, I meant mH.

Throw those textbook calculators into the garbage, they're worse than useless. Check out the link mentioned above for youtube videos on measurement. I'm not sure if they go over crossover modeling at all, but you should brush up on that. You have good driver choices, give them the skilled design they deserve.

Here is a good tutorial: http://audio.claub.net/software/FRD_...0to%2010Hz.pdf. Notice that the near field measurements are combined with the baffle diffraction model. If the above plot is what you used for woofers I can see why your inductor is so small - it is missing the 6 dB slope that the baffle diffraction causes.

I agree with everything above. Textbook calculators are straight trash. You need to take frequency response measurements of each driver in the enclosure you are using, and take each drivers impedance measurement to even get started to making an accurate crossover model. Seriously, check out the link augerpro posted above and the Impulse vids. He's got some measurement vids and crossover modeling vids, definitely think it would give you a good start. If you're going to take the time to build it, might as well build it right.
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post #15 of 23 Old 10-27-2019, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BigJake82 View Post
I agree with everything above. Textbook calculators are straight trash. You need to take frequency response measurements of each driver in the enclosure you are using, and take each drivers impedance measurement to even get started to making an accurate crossover model. Seriously, check out the link augerpro posted above and the Impulse vids. He's got some measurement vids and crossover modeling vids, definitely think it would give you a good start. If you're going to take the time to build it, might as well build it right.
I actually did take measurements of the drivers in the box, I then used those measurements to model the crossover in Xsim. The mistake I made was that I made the measurements in my office, it is a small room. I did use a calculator to set the the crossover frequencies, honestly I'm not sure how else I could pick a starting point without doing any calculations. As I said previously I would measure again outside, this helped a bit with reflections, but I live on a corner with two busy streets. I believe this might account for some of the ups in downs in the graphs. I used all the individual measurements and fed them back into Xsim. I used the FRD blender spreadsheet to combine the Woofer's near, gated and port measurements. Also per advice I removed the shunt resisters and left the series resisters. There is a huge spike in the Anarchy's FRD at 4khz, I guess this is the cone breakup, should I put a notch filter to correct it. I think I should increase the series resister on the tweeter to tone it down a bit. I really appreciate the advice everyone is giving and I have every intention of getting this crossover as good as I can get it. I'm attaching the Xsim model FRD(Green), the measured FRD(Violet) and the Anarchy's gated FRD. The Xsim shows a 3db baffle step,but the measured seems less. Lastly the Xsim FRD has the midrange inverted, but I swear it wasn't when I measured.
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post #16 of 23 Old 10-27-2019, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by PriamFromTroy View Post
I actually did take measurements of the drivers in the box, I then used those measurements to model the crossover in Xsim. The mistake I made was that I made the measurements in my office, it is a small room. I did use a calculator to set the the crossover frequencies, honestly I'm not sure how else I could pick a starting point without doing any calculations. As I said previously I would measure again outside, this helped a bit with reflections, but I live on a corner with two busy streets. I believe this might account for some of the ups in downs in the graphs. I used all the individual measurements and fed them back into Xsim. I used the FRD blender spreadsheet to combine the Woofer's near, gated and port measurements. Also per advice I removed the shunt resisters and left the series resisters. There is a huge spike in the Anarchy's FRD at 4khz, I guess this is the cone breakup, should I put a notch filter to correct it. I think I should increase the series resister on the tweeter to tone it down a bit. I really appreciate the advice everyone is giving and I have every intention of getting this crossover as good as I can get it. I'm attaching the Xsim model FRD(Green), the measured FRD(Violet) and the Anarchy's gated FRD. The Xsim shows a 3db baffle step,but the measured seems less. Lastly the Xsim FRD has the midrange inverted, but I swear it wasn't when I measured.
It would be helpful to see the drivers' individual responses along with the summed response (with crossover). Honestly it does look pretty good, but raising that resistor value on the tweeter will get this looking even better.

The notch may not be necessary if you are indeed crossing at 450hz, but wouldn't know for sure unless you showed the individual driver responses with the crossover.

Showing the response with the mid inverted would help as well in seeing how your phase is tracking.

I would say this is an excellent start. How are they sounding?
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post #17 of 23 Old 10-27-2019, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by scottvalentin View Post
It would be helpful to see the drivers' individual responses along with the summed response (with crossover). Honestly it does look pretty good, but raising that resistor value on the tweeter will get this looking even better.

The notch may not be necessary if you are indeed crossing at 450hz, but wouldn't know for sure unless you showed the individual driver responses with the crossover.

Showing the response with the mid inverted would help as well in seeing how your phase is tracking.

I would say this is an excellent start. How are they sounding?
So I should measure again with the crossover in the circuit but with one driver connected at a time. Should I measure just one woofer or both? I've been looking at the FRD and if the spike at 4K is from the woofer is there it very small, maybe 2db. I only have one built so it has been just mono listening and after putting a couple thousand hours I'm a little biased. But it sounds pretty good, I have a mono mastered version of the Let it Be album and "Get Back" sounded clean. All I had when I was measuring was some Rachmaninoff. Even though I only heard one track and it was played from my laptop which seems to be a substandard source it sounded very nice.
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post #18 of 23 Old 10-27-2019, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by PriamFromTroy View Post
So I should measure again with the crossover in the circuit but with one driver connected at a time. Should I measure just one woofer or both? I've been looking at the FRD and if the spike at 4K is from the woofer is there it very small, maybe 2db. I only have one built so it has been just mono listening and after putting a couple thousand hours I'm a little biased. But it sounds pretty good, I have a mono mastered version of the Let it Be album and "Get Back" sounded clean. All I had when I was measuring was some Rachmaninoff. Even though I only heard one track and it was played from my laptop which seems to be a substandard source it sounded very nice.
Yes crossover in the circuit just one driver at a time but measure the woofers together. This will help show the rolloff, integration, summing, etc.

You have picture of this tower? Let's see, glad it is sounding pretty good. The measurements are pretty good, so no surprise there.
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post #19 of 23 Old 10-28-2019, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by PriamFromTroy View Post
I actually did take measurements of the drivers in the box, I then used those measurements to model the crossover in Xsim. The mistake I made was that I made the measurements in my office, it is a small room. I did use a calculator to set the the crossover frequencies, honestly I'm not sure how else I could pick a starting point without doing any calculations. As I said previously I would measure again outside, this helped a bit with reflections, but I live on a corner with two busy streets. I believe this might account for some of the ups in downs in the graphs. I used all the individual measurements and fed them back into Xsim. I used the FRD blender spreadsheet to combine the Woofer's near, gated and port measurements. Also per advice I removed the shunt resisters and left the series resisters. There is a huge spike in the Anarchy's FRD at 4khz, I guess this is the cone breakup, should I put a notch filter to correct it. I think I should increase the series resister on the tweeter to tone it down a bit. I really appreciate the advice everyone is giving and I have every intention of getting this crossover as good as I can get it. I'm attaching the Xsim model FRD(Green), the measured FRD(Violet) and the Anarchy's gated FRD. The Xsim shows a 3db baffle step,but the measured seems less. Lastly the Xsim FRD has the midrange inverted, but I swear it wasn't when I measured.
Sorry, I didn't get that from the previous posts, I assume too much sometimes.

Using the blended measurements should be pretty accurate, and might be preferable to dealing with the noise outside. Increasing the slope on the crossover of the Anarchys should help with the breakup and will lessen their contribution in the midrange possibly allowing you to have less padding on the SB15. You may have to notch it regardless, but I would opt for that as oppose to padding the tweeter to compensate. That being said it looks like the Mundorf is a little hot, 5db or so at 9K, so I might pad it down a little anyways. Posting the measurement of the individual sections with the crossover intact would be good, allows you to see what each driver is doing.

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post #20 of 23 Old 10-28-2019, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, I didn't get that from the previous posts, I assume too much sometimes.

Using the blended measurements should be pretty accurate, and might be preferable to dealing with the noise outside. Increasing the slope on the crossover of the Anarchys should help with the breakup and will lessen their contribution in the midrange possibly allowing you to have less padding on the SB15. You may have to notch it regardless, but I would opt for that as oppose to padding the tweeter to compensate. That being said it looks like the Mundorf is a little hot, 5db or so at 9K, so I might pad it down a little anyways. Posting the measurement of the individual sections with the crossover intact would be good, allows you to see what each driver is doing.
Can I measure the individual drivers near-field? If so, I can get that done sooner, what with all the rain in the forecast. I would like to keep the 1st order on the woofers and high pass on the mid range if possible.
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Can I measure the individual drivers near-field? If so, I can get that done sooner, what with all the rain in the forecast. I would like to keep the 1st order on the woofers and high pass on the mid range if possible.

You can probably just do gated on the mid and tweet, and blended for the woofs. If you want 1st order on the woofers I would notch the cone breakup.
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post #22 of 23 Old 10-30-2019, 05:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by scottvalentin View Post
Yes crossover in the circuit just one driver at a time but measure the woofers together. This will help show the rolloff, integration, summing, etc.

You have picture of this tower? Let's see, glad it is sounding pretty good. The measurements are pretty good, so no surprise there.
Here is a photo, there wasn't much light so it is a little blurry. I put the woofers in one enclosure and the midrange and tweeter in another. I will be replacing the mid/tweeter box because it is out of square and I did a bad job on the chamfers. I hope to make more measurements this weekend, but I have leaves to deal with so it might be another week.
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post #23 of 23 Old 10-31-2019, 12:19 PM
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Here is a photo, there wasn't much light so it is a little blurry. I put the woofers in one enclosure and the midrange and tweeter in another. I will be replacing the mid/tweeter box because it is out of square and I did a bad job on the chamfers. I hope to make more measurements this weekend, but I have leaves to deal with so it might be another week.
Thanks for sharing!!
Excellent choice of drivers and I think you will get a lot of sage advice from here on the crossover.

Good luck!
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