Which VBSS to build? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Which VBSS to build?

I discovered the wonderful world of DIY subs last year and paired a minimarty with a NX6000D with plenty of help from these forums. Measurements for my current setup can be seen here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post57190186

Now I'm back for some more mid-range bass. I use my setup for equal parts music (hard rock/metal), gaming, and movies. I just bought 2 PA460s to power off the other channel of my inuke (I know I could do more!), but I'm torn on which subs to build. So I'm looking for opinions - should I build the standard 20Hz VBSS, the 31Hz VBSS, or a 4 ft^3 sealed box? Any input is appreciated!
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post #2 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 06:59 AM
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I haven't seen any sealed PA460 builds, but with that much power and you on the hunt for midbass, sealed is an attractive option. Would be interested in seeing how it models sealed.

If you're looking at ported I'd go with 31Hz slot ported.
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post #3 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 08:06 AM
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If your focus is mid-bass, why would you even consider a 20hz tuned cab? I'd go with the 31Hz tuned cab; even go higher if you want.
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post #4 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
If your focus is mid-bass, why would you even consider a 20hz tuned cab? I'd go with the 31Hz tuned cab; even go higher if you want.

I was thinking the same way, until I read this comment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jevchance View Post
I would go with the default 20Hz tuning. All 3 tunes model identical above 35Hz anyway.
from this thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...ce-needed.html


If it's true that they all behave the same above 35Hz, should I not go ahead and add more to my low end as well? Or is this statement untrue?
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post #5 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abpatter View Post
I was thinking the same way, until I read this comment:

from this thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...ce-needed.html

If it's true that they all behave the same above 35Hz, should I not go ahead and add more to my low end as well? Or is this statement untrue?
Fair point. Theoretically it does a little better with the 31Hz tune, but @mtg90 's outdoor measurements proved identical. Perhaps he can comment here.

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post #6 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abpatter View Post
If it's true that they all behave the same above 35Hz, should I not go ahead and add more to my low end as well?
Well you've answered your own question What driver is loaded in your minimarty? Personally, I wouldn't consider a PA460 to be a driver that will improve on one's low end... that's just me.

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post #7 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
Well you've answered your own question What driver is loaded in your minimarty? Personally, I wouldn't consider a PA460 to be a driver that will improve on one's low end... that's just me.
It's the UM18-22. I appreciate the replies - don't think I'm being argumentative. You guys know way more than I do, I'm just trying to get a good understanding of the differences.
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post #8 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abpatter View Post
It's the UM18-22. I appreciate the replies - don't think I'm being argumentative. You guys know way more than I do, I'm just trying to get a good understanding of the differences.
If you want mid bass and improve on your low end, then get one of these and build a ported cab for it

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post #9 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
If you want mid bass and improve on your low end, then get one of these and build a ported cab for it


Or for the same money, build 4-6 of the VBSS. That will also have killer low end.
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post #10 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Or for the same money, build 4-6 of the VBSS. That will also have killer low end.
Chris


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post #11 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Or for the same money, build 4-6 of the VBSS. That will also have killer low end.
Chris


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Just to clarify, mid-range is what I'm after. I'm simply saying that if the different cabinet options have no negative impacts on the mid-range, I might as well squeeze everything I can out of them on the low end, right?
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post #12 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 09:24 AM
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Which VBSS to build?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
Yep, space permitted.
Sorry, just amuses me when people recommend way more expensive drivers, especially when the OP already bought pa’s.

To answer the original question, I’d go with the 20hz vbss. 2x pa460’s will be an insane amount of midbass compared to the single UM. 2 Um’s to 1 pa would be a better ratio but of course doesn’t work with amp or money.
The 20hz tune should match pretty well with the mini marty (19hz iirc) and will add some. You’ll probably need some EQ, unless you like the midbass super heavy.
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post #13 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abpatter View Post
Just to clarify, mid-range is what I'm after. I'm simply saying that if the different cabinet options have no negative impacts on the mid-range, I might as well squeeze everything I can out of them on the low end, right?


Yup, that’s my take on the situation as well.
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post #14 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abpatter View Post
I was thinking the same way, until I read this comment:



from this thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...ce-needed.html


If it's true that they all behave the same above 35Hz, should I not go ahead and add more to my low end as well? Or is this statement untrue?
Post number 1 of the main VBSS thread seems to indicate that the 31 hz tune is 5 db louder at 35 hz.

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post #15 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 11:12 AM
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I built 31 hz pa-460 VBSS's (John's ported versions from page 27 of the thread) with the intention of integrating them in with existing um18-22 mini-marty's. The VBSS build came out perfectly and they graphed exactly as they should. However, I found integration exceedingly difficult with the different port tunes (18 hz mini-marty's and 31 hz VBSS's). There was no combination of timing, placement, phase, or slope that that didn't result in destruction at some point in the bass spectrum. I was able to do a work-around by splitting the bass spectrum with the marty's doing under 40 Hz and the VBSS's doing 40-80 or 90, but the end result was not worth the addition of more amps and subs. Room issues come into play and the room dictates where you need to place a sub to make mid bass and where you need to place a sub to make low bass. In my case my room constraints ended up being an issue and I ended up taking the VBSS's out of the mix.

I hear tale of folks finding some combination of phase/timing/slope that allows them to integrate everything while running full range, but I wasn't able to find one. If your intention is to run the mini marty full range with the VBSS you may have a very hard time integrating a 31 hz box. If your intention is to split the sub signal and have your mini marty take the low end, cross at 40ish, and have your VBSS take the upper end, it may or may not provide some benefit depending on room and placement. Just some food for thought before you start sawing and sanding.

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post #16 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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However, I found integration exceedingly difficult with the different port tunes (18 hz mini-marty's and 31 hz VBSS's). There was no combination of timing, placement, phase, or slope that that didn't result in destruction at some point in the bass spectrum. I was able to do a work-around by splitting the bass spectrum with the marty's doing under 40 Hz and the VBSS's doing 40-80 or 90, but the end result was not worth the addition of more amps and subs. Room issues come into play and the room dictates where you need to place a sub to make mid bass and where you need to place a sub to make low bass. In my case my room constraints ended up being an issue and I ended up taking the VBSS's out of the mix.
Well that's discouraging. Thanks for sharing though! I'd be curious to know if others have experienced similar issues.
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post #17 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abpatter View Post
Well that's discouraging. Thanks for sharing though! I'd be curious to know if others have experienced similar issues.
Right now I have 2 VBSS as the bass section of my 3way mains and 2 Full Marty with RSS460.... room is 17X22..



I had no issues with integration and I run my mains as LARGE....several PA460 will kick you in the chest like a mule... be careful what you ask for


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Quote:
Originally Posted by jujuman200 View Post
Right now I have 2 VBSS as the bass section of my 3way mains and 2 Full Marty with RSS460.... room is 17X22..



I had no issues with integration and I run my mains as LARGE....several PA460 will kick you in the chest like a mule... be careful what you ask for


Juju


Are your vbss the 20hz tune?
If so, that comes very close to matching the marty tune, and I wouldn’t expect any cancellation.
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post #19 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 12:39 PM
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Are your vbss the 20hz tune?
If so, that comes very close to matching the marty tune, and I wouldn’t expect any cancellation.
Chris
31Hz tune.... but it works in my room because 60Hz-ish was hot..... tames that bump in response.


I built both and the 31Hz worked better..... crazy physics



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31Hz tune.... but it works in my room because 60Hz-ish was hot..... tames that bump in response.


I built both and the 31Hz worked better..... crazy physics



Juju


Interesting. Measured or by ear?

Wish I was that lucky with my integration.

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post #21 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jevchance View Post
Fair point. Theoretically it does a little better with the 31Hz tune, but @mtg90 's outdoor measurements proved identical. Perhaps he can comment here.
The outdoor measurement is only showing the frequency response of the different tunes after EQ, not max outputs. The WinISD graph is the one that shows approximate max output for each tuning mode and you can see the differences there.

I do agree with that has been said so far, if you plan on using the VBSS in the same range as your existing subs choose a tuning mode closest to that of your existing subs for easiest integration. If you're breaking the signal up between the VBSS and existing subs then go for the higher tune to get additional output in the range that will count.

I recommend the the former as running more subs over the same range when properly setup should lessen the impact of room modes giving you a flatter response and more more output over the whole subwoofer range vs splitting the subwoofer bandwidth up between the subs.
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post #22 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone! I guess I'll be building the 20Hz version. Now back to Parts Express to order the ports.
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post #23 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Interesting. Measured or by ear?

Wish I was that lucky with my integration.

Chris


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Both.... winning


Juju

Sub List: 1- Red Five Mini V1 Devastator 18" w/PA460, 1- Red Five Devastator LFE 21", 1- Red Five Devastator 21" Finalizer V2 DF , 1- BOSS platform [The Hideaway Theater], 2- 18" "Full Marty" tuned to 17Hz w/RSS460HO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abpatter View Post
Thanks everyone! I guess I'll be building the 20Hz version. Now back to Parts Express to order the ports.
Slot version is way easier and you will already have the wood....


Just a thought....


Juju
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Quote:
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Slot version is way easier and you will already have the wood....


Just a thought....


Juju
I'm not opposed to the slot version, looks to be the same as my minimarty. But I thought the main advantage of the 4" port is that it's even simpler. Just fire up the router and pop out a hole.
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post #26 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abpatter View Post
I'm not opposed to the slot version, looks to be the same as my minimarty. But I thought the main advantage of the 4" port is that it's even simpler. Just fire up the router and pop out a hole.

I’d say slot is cheaper, precision port is easier.

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post #27 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 02:00 PM
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A quick shot of what the slotted vbss looks like next to a mini Marty. The only difference in the slot port build between 20 hz and 31 hz is the internal port length
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post #28 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 02:38 PM
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I can vouch for four VBSS's with the 15hz tune and their low end response as well as mid bass punch. I have four in my garage and I am not wanting for more. Plenty of low end but also have that impactful mid-bass which is great for movies, even with the low tune.
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post #29 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 03:57 PM
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abpatter,

I agree 100% with Zarkoff500! I've got 10 VBSS subs mounted on the walls in my garage (20 Hz tune) using the dual 4" precision ports. Both the bass and mid-bass is stupid fun.
You're smart to do 2 of them - they take little power to run and you'll have very little distortion. Plus you'll find yourself wanting to build more soon.

Dave
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post #30 of 42 Old 10-29-2019, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
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abpatter,

I agree 100% with Zarkoff500! I've got 10 VBSS subs mounted on the walls in my garage (20 Hz tune) using the dual 4" precision ports. Both the bass and mid-bass is stupid fun.
You're smart to do 2 of them - they take little power to run and you'll have very little distortion. Plus you'll find yourself wanting to build more soon.

Dave
Dave, are you the same guy who previously had 7 of these subs in your garage? If so, I applaud your dedication by adding three more

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