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post #61 of 90 Old 12-01-2019, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Ahh, ok. I assumed you had them as spares for a pro setup, with the road cases in the background.

Can’t argue with picking up a good deal.

SKHorn at home should be fun, especially that close.

Chris

It's most likely that they'll be used in a pro setup in my own design. Both the 12's and the 21's actually. Simulations are very promising and the performance of the drivers in the SKHorn is outstanding. Plus they're cheap (actually the most output per dollar if you consider that you can't even get two 12's for the price of this one).

My SKHorn at home is using the 17Hz tuning and is powered by a FP-13000, let's say it fulfils my bass desires

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post #62 of 90 Old 12-02-2019, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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So I was browsing JTR’s site today, and noticed that the cap 4000ulf has nearly identical dimensions to the ported box I’m considering, yet has a 10hz tune and dual woofers.
If they can build and market a setup like that, I can certainly try one.

Instead of putting all the eggs in one basket, I’m going to build multi tune boxes for the HST’s.
External dimensions 36x42x20, 10cu net.
3x 5.67x5 ports, 60” total length.
All ports open: 19hz
One port blocked: 15hz
Two ports blocked: 11hz
Port velocity gets stupid at 11hz, but apparently JTR gets away with it, and they use dual woofers.

Anyone see any issues with this plan?

Only issue I see is first port resonance is at 115hz.
I should be able to cross low, since I’ll have devastators and v3’s with pro drivers pounding the midbass.
I could drop the ports to 4.5” and get it to 130hz, but velocity goes up of course.

Chris
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post #63 of 90 Old 12-02-2019, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
So I was browsing JTR’s site today, and noticed that the cap 4000ulf has nearly identical dimensions to the ported box I’m considering, yet has a 10hz tune and dual woofers.
If they can build and market a setup like that, I can certainly try one.

Instead of putting all the eggs in one basket, I’m going to build multi tune boxes for the HST’s.
External dimensions 36x42x20, 10cu net.
3x 5.67x5 ports, 60” total length.
All ports open: 19hz
One port blocked: 15hz
Two ports blocked: 11hz
Port velocity gets stupid at 11hz, but apparently JTR gets away with it, and they use dual woofers.

Anyone see any issues with this plan?

Only issue I see is first port resonance is at 115hz.
I should be able to cross low, since I’ll have devastators and v3’s with pro drivers pounding the midbass.
I could drop the ports to 4.5” and get it to 130hz, but velocity goes up of course.

Chris
Where are you thinking of crossing it over? Low tune could lead to more phasing issues.

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post #64 of 90 Old 12-02-2019, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Where are you thinking of crossing it over? Low tune could lead to more phasing issues.


Depending on which tune, obviously. The 19hz uses a simple 2nd order at 15, should be no phasing issues hopefully.

The lower tunes I’m using some cascading filters to match phase response in winisd to the sealed hack I was using to integrate with the mini dev’s.

Of course I have no idea if that will also work with submax, My hornresp skills aren’t good enough to trust my results.

I was hoping John could help answer, but I’m sure he’s been busy. I sent him a pm awhile ago.

If you’ve got some extra time, give it a shot and see what you come up with.

Of course the cascading filters add the complexity of needing to use biquad inputs on the minidsp, and I haven’t yet found the formulas/calculator to build them. One issue at a time.

Thanks,
Chris
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post #65 of 90 Old 12-02-2019, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Depending on which tune, obviously. The 19hz uses a simple 2nd order at 15, should be no phasing issues hopefully.

The lower tunes I’m using some cascading filters to match phase response in winisd to the sealed hack I was using to integrate with the mini dev’s.

Of course I have no idea if that will also work with submax, My hornresp skills aren’t good enough to trust my results.

I was hoping John could help answer, but I’m sure he’s been busy. I sent him a pm awhile ago.

If you’ve got some extra time, give it a shot and see what you come up with.

Of course the cascading filters add the complexity of needing to use biquad inputs on the minidsp, and I haven’t yet found the formulas/calculator to build them. One issue at a time.

Thanks,
Chris
Otherwise fire me a PM, I can answer questions on HR. I really need to make a tutorial for simulating the Devastators and how to get the info in etc.

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post #66 of 90 Old 12-02-2019, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
Otherwise fire me a PM, I can answer questions on HR. I really need to make a tutorial for simulating the Devastators and how to get the info in etc.


Thanks.

I need to spend more time familiarizing myself to know what to ask, lol.
On the basic ported sims, i was getting an error of s1=0 when trying to correct the le for large coil. Also, my acoustic power sims for the sealed and ported boxes seemed strangely low. I’ll play with it more when I get some time.

Integration uncertainty is the reason behind the multi tune. I know the 19hz will work, but I want to use the ulf capabilities of the HST’s if possible. This way I can have both by just adjusting the minidsp and plugging ports.

You can send me a screenshot of the inputs for the mini, if you don’t mind.

Thanks,
Chris
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post #67 of 90 Old 12-02-2019, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Thanks.

I need to spend more time familiarizing myself to know what to ask, lol.
On the basic ported sims, i was getting an error of s1=0 when trying to correct the le for large coil. Also, my acoustic power sims for the sealed and ported boxes seemed strangely low. I’ll play with it more when I get some time.

Integration uncertainty is the reason behind the multi tune. I know the 19hz will work, but I want to use the ulf capabilities of the HST’s if possible. This way I can have both by just adjusting the minidsp and plugging ports.

You can send me a screenshot of the inputs for the mini, if you don’t mind.

Thanks,
Chris
Have you been using the input wizard? That's up in the help menu from the input window. Sub max should be a 4 section horn, all parabolic flares. It is also on an offset alignment with a sealed rear chamber. The thing is just a massive 4th Order beast!

Usually that type of error is a chamber volume less than the displacement of the woofer or a throat chamber area that is smaller than Sd.

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post #68 of 90 Old 12-02-2019, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Have you been using the input wizard? That's up in the help menu from the input window. Sub max should be a 4 section horn, all parabolic flares. It is also on an offset alignment with a sealed rear chamber. The thing is just a massive 4th Order beast!

Usually that type of error is a chamber volume less than the displacement of the woofer or a throat chamber area that is smaller than Sd.


... no. That might help, lol.

Submax isn’t the issue, I have John’s parameters for that one. And I can swap in woofer specs without screwing stuff up. (I think ) The NSW does have the sd to throat warning, but doesn’t seem to mess with calcs.

The issue is building simple boxes to compare, and just understanding what the program is telling me in general. The input wizard will probably help with the first part.

Chris
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post #69 of 90 Old 12-02-2019, 08:54 PM
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... no. That might help, lol.

Submax isn’t the issue, I have John’s parameters for that one. And I can swap in woofer specs without screwing stuff up. (I think ) The NSW does have the sd to throat warning, but doesn’t seem to mess with calcs.

The issue is building simple boxes to compare, and just understanding what the program is telling me in general. The input wizard will probably help with the first part.

Chris
Lol. It helps a lot for getting the inputs setup right. Bass Reflex in the DR options that is probably what you want. Then once that is setup you can paste your woofer. There is also the loudspeaker wizard for changing the parameters in real time. Also very useful. Cltr+E from the input window opens that up. I think it is also in the tools menu.

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post #70 of 90 Old 12-02-2019, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
Lol. It helps a lot for getting the inputs setup right. Bass Reflex in the DR options that is probably what you want. Then once that is setup you can paste your woofer. There is also the loudspeaker wizard for changing the parameters in real time. Also very useful. Cltr+E from the input window opens that up. I think it is also in the tools menu.

The loudspeaker wizard is what was breaking my ported design with the le correction, lol. I’m sure i had something simple screwed up with enclosure. I’ve got some time, I’ll go mess with it.



Chris
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post #71 of 90 Old 12-02-2019, 09:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, that resulted in a much more successful model.

I’m not sure what it tells me though. Comparing phase is really frustrating, since you can only compare 1 previous iteration and changing crossovers kills it. Also, I don’t think it has the option of cascaded crossovers.

Also, how are you supposed to model diaphragm displacement and acoustical power under actual amplifier output?

Thanks,
Chris
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post #72 of 90 Old 12-03-2019, 03:09 AM
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Generally ATC input you use the SD of the driver.

If you dbl click acoustical power graph it will show amp efficiency at a specific hz. Dbl click diaphragm displacement to get velocity and acceleration at a hz/displacement. LR filters are cascaded Butterworth filters

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post #73 of 90 Old 12-03-2019, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I now understand why the SI24 sale is local pickup / delivery

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Generally ATC input you use the SD of the driver.



If you dbl click acoustical power graph it will show amp efficiency at a specific hz. Dbl click diaphragm displacement to get velocity and acceleration at a hz/displacement. LR filters are cascaded Butterworth filters


Ok, I didn’t realize atc would change for a different driver in the same design. Does vtc need to be adjusted as well?

Acoustical power is near driver sensitivity, and diaphragm displacement is around 1mm, so I’m assuming it’s modeling 1w or 2.8v.

LR’s don’t help when I’m trying to cascade different frequencies and orders of BW, but thanks.


Chris

Last edited by a77cj7; 12-03-2019 at 08:26 AM.
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post #74 of 90 Old 12-03-2019, 06:35 AM
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You will end up using the Windows Snipping tool to take screen grabs, since you cannot do direct comparisons with filters on. If you double left click on the Eg box you can put in the number of watts, then use Re of the sub to determine the power.

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post #75 of 90 Old 12-03-2019, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
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You will end up using the Windows Snipping tool to take screen grabs, since you cannot do direct comparisons with filters on. If you double left click on the Eg box you can put in the number of watts, then use Re of the sub to determine the power.

Yeah, assumed snips were necessary. Didn’t take the time to mess with it. Winisd definitely wins on GUI, lol.

I’ll look for Eg.

Thanks,
Chris
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post #76 of 90 Old 12-03-2019, 04:17 PM
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Are you just trying to set PEQs and HS/LS. It will allow 2 if that's what you're looking for
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post #77 of 90 Old 12-03-2019, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I now understand why the SI24 sale is local pickup / delivery

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Are you just trying to set PEQs and HS/LS. It will allow 2 if that's what you're looking for


No, I’m trying to cascade crossovers to match phase. I believe one of the combos that looked promising in winISD was a 10hz 4th order BW HPF and a 8hz 2nd order BW HPF. I forget which tune that was for.

In winisd, that combo matched up almost perfectly with a sealed sub with a 10hz 8th order BW. I used that setup to integrate the sealed with the mini dev’s, not sure if it will match with submax or not.

There’s a whole lot of “Ifs” and “maybes” involved, hence the multi tune design.

EDIT: I just got home, but have to change the oil in my car and make deviled eggs for a work party. I’ll try to mess with it more later tonight.

Chris
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post #78 of 90 Old 12-03-2019, 05:26 PM
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Im not familiar enough with winISD but in HR The active gives 1 HP and 1 LP dedicated. The equaliser will let you do 2 more HP or 2 LP or 1 of each etc.

For what it's worth HR will be far more accurate than winISD
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post #79 of 90 Old 12-03-2019, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Im not familiar enough with winISD but in HR The active gives 1 HP and 1 LP dedicated. The equaliser will let you do 2 more HP or 2 LP or 1 of each etc.



For what it's worth HR will be far more accurate than winISD


Ahh. Ok, hadn’t opened the eq. That sounds like it will do the trick.

I know hr is more accurate, thats why I’m attempting to learn it. Well, that and the 4 horns I’ll be running.

Chris
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post #80 of 90 Old 12-03-2019, 10:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks @Red Five and @Gorilla Killa !
I think I have workable HR models now.

By playing with basic crossovers, I was able to match phase response relatively close between the v3 and all three tunes of the ported box.

HR is giving me a lower tune for given port length than WinISD, any idea which is correct?
I like HR’s answer better, allows me to shorten the port to 130cm and get the first port resonance up to 130hz.

It’s looking like I’ll have to throw an 8th order butterworth LPF in at 70-80 to match phase, so the resonance is probably irrelevant.

Is there a port velocity model in HR?

Is allowing Submax to run up to the 120hz global LPF going to be a problem? Throwing a 80hz on it will change phasing, not sure I can easily match it.

I don’t have any idea what the mini dev does yet, so hopefully it plays nice.

Chris
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post #81 of 90 Old 12-04-2019, 02:50 AM
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Dbl click diaphragm displacement, it will give port info
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post #82 of 90 Old 12-04-2019, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Dbl click diaphragm displacement, it will give port info


Just double click everything in this program apparently, lol.

Thanks again,
Chris
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post #83 of 90 Old 12-04-2019, 06:39 AM
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Thanks @Red Five and @Gorilla Killa !
I think I have workable HR models now.

By playing with basic crossovers, I was able to match phase response relatively close between the v3 and all three tunes of the ported box.

HR is giving me a lower tune for given port length than WinISD, any idea which is correct?
I like HR’s answer better, allows me to shorten the port to 130cm and get the first port resonance up to 130hz.

It’s looking like I’ll have to throw an 8th order butterworth LPF in at 70-80 to match phase, so the resonance is probably irrelevant.

Is there a port velocity model in HR?

Is allowing Submax to run up to the 120hz global LPF going to be a problem? Throwing a 80hz on it will change phasing, not sure I can easily match it.

I don’t have any idea what the mini dev does yet, so hopefully it plays nice.

Chris

Port velocity/horn velocity is a little tricky to find. From the Acoustical Power windows go into tools. Change output to port vs combined. Go back into tools, go down to Particle velocity then chose inlet or outlet. You can also see the horn velocity from the mouth by switching output to horn. HR is pretty spot on with calculating port length, no correction needed. The input for the Mini is in the attachments for the design. I fat fingered .75 in S3, it should be .58, not that it changes anything since the value is so minute.




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post #84 of 90 Old 12-04-2019, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I now understand why the SI24 sale is local pickup / delivery

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Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
Port velocity/horn velocity is a little tricky to find. From the Acoustical Power windows go into tools. Change output to port vs combined. Go back into tools, go down to Particle velocity then chose inlet or outlet. You can also see the horn velocity from the mouth by switching output to horn. HR is pretty spot on with calculating port length, no correction needed. The input for the Mini is in the attachments for the design. I fat fingered .75 in S3, it should be .58, not that it changes anything since the value is so minute.




Whoops, didn’t notice you had the HR design on the design post.
Thanks again,
Chris
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post #85 of 90 Old 12-04-2019, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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@Red Five , @Gorilla Killa

Atc (and vtc) for v3, do I need to change them by driver or are they based on the box?

Chris
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post #86 of 90 Old 12-04-2019, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Im not familiar enough with winISD but in HR The active gives 1 HP and 1 LP dedicated. The equaliser will let you do 2 more HP or 2 LP or 1 of each etc.

Found the crossover featured in EQ. I will have to do some reading to implement them, since they’re based on frequency and Q value.

I’m hoping to avoid cascaded crossovers anyway, as learning how to calculate them and build as biquads seems pretty complex.

Chris
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post #87 of 90 Old 12-04-2019, 10:00 AM
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Somebody wrote a biquad calculator I'll see if I can find it, not sure what PC it's on. Keep in mind a Linkwitz-Riley is a cascaded Butterworth, depending on what shape your trying to achieve it may save a input.
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post #88 of 90 Old 12-04-2019, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Somebody wrote a biquad calculator I'll see if I can find it, not sure what PC it's on. Keep in mind a Linkwitz-Riley is a cascaded Butterworth, depending on what shape your trying to achieve it may save a input.


Yeah, LR is two cascaded at the same center. I’m trying to use a shallow to control cone excursion, then a steeper at lower frequency to shape phase.

Minidsp has a spreadsheet, but i still have to figure out the math for higher orders and/or cascading.

If there’s a spreadsheet that builds the full set of 8 biquads, I’d love to see it.

Thanks,
Chris
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post #89 of 90 Old 12-04-2019, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, got the mini dev model added. Phasing looks much like a ported box. And just throwing a 80hz 2nd order LPF on the ported seems to match it pretty well with the mini dev.

I have no idea how the submax and the devastator supposedly play nicely though. The phasing is not remotely similar.

I guess I will just have to build it and measure, then go from there.

Chris
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post #90 of 90 Old 12-05-2019, 04:57 AM
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It may be miniDSP's calculator I was thinking of.
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