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post #91 of 124 Old 12-17-2019, 10:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I now understand why the SI24 sale is local pickup / delivery

Well, I’ve been slacking on these builds other than picking up an additional 4 sheets of MDF. Hoping to get both builds knocked out over the holiday.

The NSW’s showed up today though , so here’s the obligatory comparison shots.
HST-18 mkIII vs NSW6021-6

Very different design styles, but both are quite ridiculous.

Chris


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post #92 of 124 Old 12-23-2019, 11:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Projects are stacking up:

Ported flatpack sitting on submax side panels.
I was hoping to get the ported boxes assembled before Christmas, but I overestimated my speed and ambition. Looks like the submax’ will stretch into next year.
18’s in 2019, 21’s in 2020.

Chris


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post #93 of 124 Old 12-25-2019, 04:46 AM
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Just wondering how do you install such heavy drivers into your cabinets? Some sort of attachment to a hydraulic lift?

Thinking of buying a chinese 24" incher as an experiment.
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post #94 of 124 Old 12-25-2019, 07:53 AM
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I put mine in and removed with just my fingers. It is possible you just need willpower and a bit of strength helps too. They are heavy not unmovable.
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post #95 of 124 Old 12-25-2019, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I now understand why the SI24 sale is local pickup / delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_monkey View Post
Just wondering how do you install such heavy drivers into your cabinets? Some sort of attachment to a hydraulic lift?



Thinking of buying a chinese 24" incher as an experiment.


Large zip ties through 2 of the screw holes and lower the woofer into place. It is hard on the hands, but not too challenging.

I’ve never tried to install one with box upright, would be a fight. I believe @Jk7.2 said that he installed his HST’s this way, maybe he can chime in.

Chris


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post #96 of 124 Old 12-25-2019, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
I’ve never tried to install one with box upright, would be a fight.
I would have to REALLY hate myself to try that.

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post #97 of 124 Old 12-27-2019, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I now understand why the SI24 sale is local pickup / delivery

Large subwoofers and car batteries make good weights for clamping.



That pile should be right around 400lbs.

Chris


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post #98 of 124 Old 12-28-2019, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Large zip ties through 2 of the screw holes and lower the woofer into place. It is hard on the hands, but not too challenging.

I’ve never tried to install one with box upright, would be a fight. I believe @Jk7.2 said that he installed his HST’s this way, maybe he can chime in.

Chris


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I did swap my ds4’s for hst’s with the cabs upright. It was not easy, and it was a 2 person job. I’d never try it with a 24. This is an old pic, but you’ll get the idea.
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post #99 of 124 Old 12-28-2019, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
I did swap my ds4’s for hst’s with the cabs upright. It was not easy, and it was a 2 person job. I’d never try it with a 24. This is an old pic, but you’ll get the idea.
holy crap. You installed those 18's up there? Ballsy AF.
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post #100 of 124 Old 12-28-2019, 06:32 PM
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holy crap. You installed those 18's up there? Ballsy AF.


Yup. They are heavy. I also took them back out, with the cab vertical, got rid of the old cabs and built my current cabs. The new cabs I loaded the drivers in while the cab was laying on its back. Honestly, it was easier to lift the drivers up there then the loaded cabs.
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post #101 of 124 Old 12-28-2019, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
Yup. They are heavy. I also took them back out, with the cab vertical, got rid of the old cabs and built my current cabs. The new cabs I loaded the drivers in while the cab was laying on its back. Honestly, it was easier to lift the drivers up there then the loaded cabs.

Impressive man.
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post #102 of 124 Old 12-28-2019, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Well, I’ve been slacking on these builds other than picking up an additional 4 sheets of MDF. Hoping to get both builds knocked out over the holiday.

The NSW’s showed up today though , so here’s the obligatory comparison shots.
HST-18 mkIII vs NSW6021-6

Very different design styles, but both are quite ridiculous.

Chris


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I'm actually trying to decide between these two drivers (or the B&C IPAL 21). For simplicity and size I'd start with a sealed cabinet 4-5 cubic feet.

Assuming my WinISD modeling is accurate, both drivers appear to have about the same output (within a few db) at 20hz with the nod going to the HST. Above 35hz, the pro drivers start to have an advantage. This is given a 2000w input.

So what would make the HST better than the NSW/IPAL or vice versa?
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post #103 of 124 Old 12-28-2019, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I now understand why the SI24 sale is local pickup / delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pultzar View Post
I'm actually trying to decide between these two drivers (or the B&C IPAL 21). For simplicity and size I'd start with a sealed cabinet 4-5 cubic feet.



Assuming my WinISD modeling is accurate, both drivers appear to have about the same output (within a few db) at 20hz with the nod going to the HST. Above 35hz, the pro drivers start to have an advantage. This is given a 2000w input.



So what would make the HST better than the NSW/IPAL or vice versa?


I haven’t modeled the IPAL, since I didn’t have any interest in that driver. Way too low of an impedance load for my amps.

I originally picked up the HST’s for the simple reason that I’ve wanted some since they first came out, and they’re the biggest, craziest long throw 18 available. I originally intended to put them in LLT sonotubes.

Then I built a set of mini devastators that turned out really well, so I decided to get more elaborate. The Submax V3 modeled nicely with the HST, and worked perfectly with the space I have available.
After getting the panels cut, I discovered that the new heavy-basket HST is too deep to fit. The submax is not an easily adjustable design, so this completely shut me down.

Since I really liked the idea and fitment of submax, I decided to pick the ideal driver for that cabinet, and my amplifiers. My amps are relatively simple, 2500w at 4 to 16ohm. After some back and forth discussion with ltd02, and quite a few models, the NSW was chosen as the best option. Most expensive too, of course.

As I mentioned earlier, I had wanted to own some of the HST’s since they first came out. I wasn’t ready to let them go without usage, so I decided to build some narrow cabs to replace my 4cf sealed HT18’s. I was convinced by members here to go with a ported design. I really wanted to go low tune, but wasn’t sure if I could integrate it with the mini dev’s and submax’s. I ended up with a tri-tune design: 11,16,and 20hz.

Here’s where those are now, one just assembled, the other cleaned up and ready for the outer baffle:


For what you’re doing, a 4-5cf sealed isn’t a good option for either driver.
I was modeling the HST hitting xmax at 6cf sealed on 2500w. You’re going to need even more volume with 2000w.

The NSW isn’t a great match for a sealed box in general. It is much happier ported. Databass has tested the nsw sealed so you can see the response.

I haven’t heard either yet, but by models:
If this is going to be your only sub: go NSW ported at 20ish.
If you have to go sealed, go HST for theater use, or NSW for music.

Chris
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post #104 of 124 Old 12-28-2019, 09:52 PM
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Thanks Chris!

I use my setup for both theater and music use, but I always tend to put priority on the music performance. With theater, there is so much going on visually that I'm less critical of the audio in comparison.

Whatever I build I'm going to start with two subs and perhaps expand to 4 for smoother response (not necessarily for more output).

Cheers,

Scott
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post #105 of 124 Old 12-31-2019, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I now understand why the SI24 sale is local pickup / delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_monkey View Post
Just wondering how do you install such heavy drivers into your cabinets? Some sort of attachment to a hydraulic lift?



Thinking of buying a chinese 24" incher as an experiment.


Just did a test fit on the HST, so took some pics. The screwdrivers save fingers from the zip ties.
Controlled lift and lower of an 87lb driver at shoulder height is a good workout. I’m sure a 24” is even more fun.




EDIT:
If you haven’t eaten your wheaties, and don’t have an unsuspecting friend who owes you a favor, I guess you could use one of these:



I have cleaned it up and brought it inside before, but was for 500+lb forklift batteries in a solar setup, not subwoofers.


Chris
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post #106 of 124 Old 12-31-2019, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Just did a test fit on the HST, so took some pics. The screwdrivers save fingers from the zip ties.
Controlled lift and lower of an 87lb driver at shoulder height is a good workout. I’m sure a 24” is even more fun.





Chris
That roundover work is superb!!! Mine doesn't look anything like that. Care to share your technique and bit you used?

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post #107 of 124 Old 12-31-2019, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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That roundover work is superb!!! Mine doesn't look anything like that. Care to share your technique and bit you used?


Sure. I try to document my builds well, so I have pics. I will post up a full build thread once they’re complete and working.

I think the roundover part is pretty easy. It’s the flush trim on the ports that gives me issues.

Tools:



The 1/4 roundover I used on the driver recess is part of an ultra cheap set from amazon.
The 3/8 roundover used on the ports is from lowes, I bought it because it has a 1/2” bearing, matching the flush trim bit I use. It has since become my go-to bit. I will use it to do the outsides of these boxes after I finish sanding.

I always struggle to keep the flush trim bit from gouging on the ports, so I measure very carefully and cut to to 1/8-1/4in with a jigsaw.


Then, I very carefully use the flush trim. I have used my plunge base with the large circle jig as an oversized base to prevent tipping in the past. This time I just used the fixed base.


I ended up with three nicks total, yay bondo. Use Bondo BEFORE the roundover or the nicks will be transferred.


Blend the port cutouts with a sanding block. Then hit with the roundover. Again, be careful to prevent tipping the router. The roundover seems to be much more forgiving though.


I cheated on the driver recess, and ran the roundover before making the cutout. No tipping issues.

The triple baffle was too thick for my bit. I need to buy a full-size router, lol. I cut it as deep as I could, then finished the last 3/8in with a jigsaw.


Let me know if you have any more questions.

Chris
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post #108 of 124 Old 01-11-2020, 09:13 AM
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Awesome build! I have two HST’s collecting dust - need to make a box. Care to share the exact box specs?


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post #109 of 124 Old 01-11-2020, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Awesome build! I have two HST’s collecting dust - need to make a box. Care to share the exact box specs?


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I hope to have them running tonight, will post a build thread tomorrow.

These boxes have lots of compromises based on available space and footprint. Built them with multiple tune options due to integration concerns with horns.
20x36x36.75. 5x5.67 ports. Triple baffle.
Bracing:



All ports open, 20hz tune. 9.3cf , 2500w, under 20m/s port velocity


2 ports open, 16hz tune. 2500w, 30m/s port velocity.


1 port open, 11hz tune. 1000w, 30m/s port velocity.


All ports plugged, sealed box 11cu. 2000w due to xmax.


Chris
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post #110 of 124 Old 01-16-2020, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Large zip ties through 2 of the screw holes and lower the woofer into place. It is hard on the hands, but not too challenging.

I’ve never tried to install one with box upright, would be a fight. I believe @Jk7.2 said that he installed his HST’s this way, maybe he can chime in.

Chris


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Thanks, the idea of zip ties is genius.


Now another mundane question, what screw specifications do you guys use? And no inserts?
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post #111 of 124 Old 01-16-2020, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Just did a test fit on the HST, so took some pics. The screwdrivers save fingers from the zip ties.
Controlled lift and lower of an 87lb driver at shoulder height is a good workout. I’m sure a 24” is even more fun.

Chris
Nice photos!
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post #112 of 124 Old 01-16-2020, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I now understand why the SI24 sale is local pickup / delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_monkey View Post
Thanks, the idea of zip ties is genius.





Now another mundane question, what screw specifications do you guys use? And no inserts?


I use threaded inserts with socket head cap screws, for these drivers anyways. 1/4-20 thread. Pro drivers just get black machine screws. Whatever works with the gasket.




I love the threaded inserts, use them on all my builds

EDIT: I use these:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B002W...b_b_asin_title

Chris
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post #113 of 124 Old 01-16-2020, 06:10 AM
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I have those on order. What size hole did you drill for the insert? Do you use any epoxy or glue to ensure the vibrations don't cause them to back out?

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post #114 of 124 Old 01-16-2020, 06:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I have those on order. What size hole did you drill for the insert? Do you use any epoxy or glue to ensure the vibrations don't cause them to back out?


The bag says to use a 9mm drill, which is 23/64 roughly. I use a 21/64 in MDF, very snug.
I always use some JB weld, but never had one spin or back out.

Chris
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post #115 of 124 Old 01-16-2020, 07:07 AM
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The bag says to use a 9mm drill, which is 23/64 roughly. I use a 21/64 in MDF, very snug.
I always use some JB weld, but never had one spin or back out.

Chris
Just curious, what length of bolt do you use? 1 1/2"? 1 3/4? 2"?

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Just curious, what length of bolt do you use? 1 1/2"? 1 3/4? 2"?


Depends on the thickness of the driver flange I’m currently using. Just add the length of the insert to the driver flange thickness.
For these HST’s, I used 1 1/4”.

Chris
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post #117 of 124 Old 01-16-2020, 07:21 AM
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Depends on the thickness of the driver flange I’m currently using. Just add the length of the insert to the driver flange thickness.
For these HST’s, I used 1 1/4”.

Chris
Got it. I don't have the driver in hand at the moment to measure the flange, but I'll be using a B&C 21DS.

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post #118 of 124 Old 01-16-2020, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Got it. I don't have the driver in hand at the moment to measure the flange, but I'll be using a B&C 21DS.


Top mount, or bottom mount like a devastator?

Chris
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post #119 of 124 Old 01-16-2020, 07:26 AM
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Top mount, or bottom mount like a devastator?

Chris
I have a devastator.

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post #120 of 124 Old 01-16-2020, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
I have a devastator.


The DS flange is about 1/2” in that configuration. I used 1” machine screws, but I also used 1/2” inserts installed blind because of the window:



I’d get 1 1/2” bolts with the 1” inserts, just make sure the bolt you use doesn’t have a shoulder longer than the driver flange thickness.

Chris
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