What should I do...bass upgrade path...MBM's? Upgrade 18" marty to a 21"...? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Question What should I do...bass upgrade path...MBM's? Upgrade 18" marty to a 21"...?

Currently, I have a mini Marty with a um18 that I am satisfied with overall for the low end, but I am looking to add some higher frequency mid-bass to my setup (yeah, another one of those "I want chest slam bass threads, sorry lol). I also have a ported Klipsch 12" sub I am using for a bit better response in my room and it has helped with a 50hz null I had. So I have one 18" and one 12" in a room that is roughly 2784 cubic feet (14.5ft x 24ft with 8ft ceilings). I'm not looking to necessarily increase spl, as the wife doesn't like the power levels I can get to already; just more 50hz-150hz thump.

My um18 is being run off a nx3000d (bridged) and is in the best place in my room according to rew.

Budget wise I'm looking to stay under $1k.


Option 1 - MBM's

Would you suggest 1 or 2 pa460 cabs?

My initial thought is to add 2 pa460 sealed/ported (not sure which would integrate better, or pro's/con's as a mbm here - help?) cabs sitting behind the "2 seat couch" up next to the "bar" wall. This would put them approximately 4.5ft away from the mlp, so not super nearfield, but pretty close. Or I could move the Mini Marty to the bar wall and stack the pa460's in place where the Mini Marty currently is, which would make them more nearfield.

Is there a go-to size and cutlist for pa460's for mbm use (like I found for the marty diy builds)? Is the PE 4 cu ft flatpack ideal? I'd probably build them myself to save $.

For mbm frequencies with the pa460's, what size cab is ideal - 3 cu ft? 4 cu ft?

Ported vs sealed for the mbm?

Which amp are guys using if I were to power 2 pa460's? NX1000D? NX3000D? Would I be better off selling off my NX3000D and jumping up to a NX6000D? Thoughts?


Option 2 - Upgrade Mini Marty 18" to a 21"

What are your thoughts on swapping out my um18 driver for a 21" that hits the mids better? I'd use my existing mini marty cab; is it too small for the benefits of a 21"? Would I need to upgrade my NX3000D to something stronger? I'm not sure this is a cost-effective venture vs building some mbm's though...?


The room pic & diagram is attached.

Thanks!
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post #2 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
Currently, I have a mini Marty with a um18 that I am satisfied with overall for the low end, but I am looking to add some higher frequency mid-bass to my setup (yeah, another one of those "I want chest slam bass threads, sorry lol). I also have a ported Klipsch 12" sub I am using for a bit better response in my room and it has helped with a 50hz null I had. So I have one 18" and one 12" in a room that is roughly 2784 cubic feet (14.5ft x 24ft with 8ft ceilings). I'm not looking to necessarily increase spl, as the wife doesn't like the power levels I can get to already; just more 50hz-150hz thump.



My um18 is being run off a nx3000d (bridged) and is in the best place in my room according to rew.



Budget wise I'm looking to stay under $1k.





Option 1 - MBM's



Would you suggest 1 or 2 pa460 cabs?



My initial thought is to add 2 pa460 sealed/ported (not sure which would integrate better, or pro's/con's as a mbm here - help?) cabs sitting behind the "2 seat couch" up next to the "bar" wall. This would put them approximately 4.5ft away from the mlp, so not super nearfield, but pretty close. Or I could move the Mini Marty to the bar wall and stack the pa460's in place where the Mini Marty currently is, which would make them more nearfield.



Is there a go-to size and cutlist for pa460's for mbm use (like I found for the marty diy builds)? Is the PE 4 cu ft flatpack ideal? I'd probably build them myself to save $.



For mbm frequencies with the pa460's, what size cab is ideal - 3 cu ft? 4 cu ft?



Ported vs sealed for the mbm?



Which amp are guys using if I were to power 2 pa460's? NX1000D? NX3000D? Would I be better off selling off my NX3000D and jumping up to a NX6000D? Thoughts?





Option 2 - Upgrade Mini Marty 18" to a 21"



What are your thoughts on swapping out my um18 driver for a 21" that hits the mids better? I'd use my existing mini marty cab; is it too small for the benefits of a 21"? Would I need to upgrade my NX3000D to something stronger? I'm not sure this is a cost-effective venture vs building some mbm's though...?





The room pic & diagram is attached.



Thanks!


You’ve already heard from me, but I’ll restate it here.

If you go PA460’s, put them in 20 hz tuned VBSS’. Its a well proven design, and will integrate nicely with the mini marty. A nx1000d is more than enough amp, but the nx3000d is not much more, so most people just go with it. Make sure you get the D version or a minidsp, the PA’s need eq for best results.

The mini marty is plenty big enough to work with a 21” driver. Its slightly larger than the GSG 21 cube, for comparison purposes. With your existing nx3000d, I’d go with the B&C 21ds115-4.

Given the thousand dollar budget, I’d do neither, lol. I’d build a second mini marty for the 21, and get an additional NX3000D. There’s a B&C 21DS115-4 in the classifieds that should allow the build to come in under $1000.

Or if you’re feeling more ambitious, add a Devastator V1 with the same driver and amp.

Chris


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post #3 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 10:40 AM
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depending how far you are in Georgia..i know a guy on here coming up to Jacksonville this weekend to buy some 24's. he has 4 VBSS subs that he is trying to sell...

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post #4 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 11:26 AM
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If you can fit 4x VBSS, I don’t think you can beat that bass for the money. Plus you gain room smoothing if you can spread them out.

If you can only fit 2x, the additional 21ds will win on midbass AND keep up with the UM down low.

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post #5 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadsmith013 View Post
depending how far you are in Georgia..i know a guy on here coming up to Jacksonville this weekend to buy some 24's. he has 4 VBSS subs that he is trying to sell...
Really?

Where is he from?

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post #6 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
You’ve already heard from me, but I’ll restate it here.

If you go PA460’s, put them in 20 hz tuned VBSS’. Its a well proven design, and will integrate nicely with the mini marty. A nx1000d is more than enough amp, but the nx3000d is not much more, so most people just go with it. Make sure you get the D version or a minidsp, the PA’s need eq for best results.

The mini marty is plenty big enough to work with a 21” driver. Its slightly larger than the GSG 21 cube, for comparison purposes. With your existing nx3000d, I’d go with the B&C 21ds115-4.

Given the thousand dollar budget, I’d do neither, lol. I’d build a second mini marty for the 21, and get an additional NX3000D. There’s a B&C 21DS115-4 in the classifieds that should allow the build to come in under $1000.

Or if you’re feeling more ambitious, add a Devastator V1 with the same driver and amp.

Chris


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Thanks.

I should add that I'd like to spend about $500ish of possible

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post #7 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
Thanks.

I should add that I'd like to spend about $500ish of possible

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Due to amp cost, the only $500 dollar option is swapping in the used 21ds115.

For a bit more money, you could add twin VBSS’.

If you are 100% sure you will never want more, the vbss option benefits from room smoothing.

If you will need to upgrade like most of us, you could go the 21ds option.
Then add a second 21ds mini marty when the inevitable upgrade bug hits.

Chris




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post #8 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Due to amp cost, the only $500 dollar option is swapping in the used 21ds115.

For a bit more money, you could add twin VBSS’.

If you are 100% sure you will never want more, the vbss option benefits from room smoothing.

If you will need to upgrade like most of us, you could go the 21ds option.
Then add a second 21ds mini marty when the inevitable upgrade bug hits.

Chris




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Ya, it seems the $500 is a bit too optimistic.


Buying everything new it looks like this is roughly where'd I be for 2 pa460 builds:

1x nx3000d ~$290
2x pa460 drivers $180
2x sheets 3/4 mdf (or do I need 3?) $75
2x neutrik speakon connectors $5
2x 25ft speakon cables $25

So pretty close actual at $575 for two, or $615ish if I need 3 sheets of mdf.

I have all the tools, glue, screws, etc already.


With BF deals coming I can probably get some of that for bit less too....

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post #9 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post



1x nx3000d ~$290


That really helps, I was assuming $350-400 for the amp.

Chris




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post #10 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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That really helps, I was assuming $350-400 for the amp.

Chris




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Yeah.

Last year I was able to grab my current NX3000D on BF sale for $260, so maybe they could go that low again this year too.
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post #11 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 02:50 PM
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Here is an option but it is dependent on your mains. Assuming your mains can play to 60 or 80hz you can run two pa460’s in sealed boxes at 4cuft and with a +2db of gain at 60hz and a Q of 1 you could get them to play in a R L configuration off your main outs rather than your sub outs with as little as 180w from a 1000d and then you low pass them at say 150hz. With this setup you will need to place them up by your mains somewhere because if the higher frequencies being played. Then you can upgrade your subs anytime, like say another UM Marty that you like so well because matching subs is always better.
I did this exact setup except with more capable subs than you and love it. My setup will play music just as loud and as good movies and if I need more I just add a little gain in my MBM amp after auto eq. I added +2db.



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post #12 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 02:56 PM
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Really?

Where is he from?

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the guy coming up is from Rockledge FL...or around that area..his name is Chris Young..he is on the forums here....and he is coming to jacksonville this weekend to meet with the guy on here tarponator to pick up his 24s...tarponator made him some cabinets for his 24's...he built all my subs as well..he will build anything you need...
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post #13 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 02:58 PM
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if u were willing to drive to Jax..im sure u could cut a deal with him for the 4 VBSS...they are built and done...might could use a paint job i think.. if interested..PM me..
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post #14 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile75 View Post
Here is an option but it is dependent on your mains. Assuming your mains can play to 60 or 80hz you can run two pa460’s in sealed boxes at 4cuft and with a +2db of gain at 60hz and a Q of 1 you could get them to play in a R L configuration off your main outs rather than your sub outs with as little as 180w from a 1000d and then you low pass them at say 150hz. With this setup you will need to place them up by your mains somewhere because if the higher frequencies being played. Then you can upgrade your subs anytime, like say another UM Marty that you like so well because matching subs is always better.
I did this exact setup except with more capable subs than you and love it. My setup will play music just as loud and as good movies and if I need more I just add a little gain in my MBM amp after auto eq. I added +2db.



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That's a good idea.

My problem is I don't have a place to put them near my mains, see pic, it's a Multi-use room that's tight already.

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post #15 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadsmith013 View Post
the guy coming up is from Rockledge FL...or around that area..his name is Chris Young..he is on the forums here....and he is coming to jacksonville this weekend to meet with the guy on here tarponator to pick up his 24s...tarponator made him some cabinets for his 24's...he built all my subs as well..he will build anything you need...
Four 24’s in those monster cabinets tarponator’s been building in rockledge? That’s only 150 miles away, I’ll hear him from here!
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The biggest leap I made in bass quality wasn’t going bigger, and it wasn’t adding a second sub near the first (the sub crawl is better than nothing but it can result in merely finding the loudest peak in the room, at least that’s what it did for me). My aha moment was when I used REW to find locations that compensated for each other’s weaknesses so as to combine to play flat. If you have a few locations that combine to play flat, what’s wrong with a um18 mini Marty in each? You should be able to grab the driver for $239 on sale, and you’ll be guaranteed they will integrate and gain match perfectly. A Devastator is a mid bass monster, but if you sit it in a mid bass null it will not deliver anything for you (... ask me how I know). My vote would be, assuming cost is a factor and assuming your locations are complimentary, add another identical sub. Second choice would be add a few 20hz tuned VBSS’s (I like the version on page 27 of the vbss thread, looks like a mini-mini-marty).
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SIGNAL CHAIN: Denon X4400; Minidsp 2x4 HD; 2 x Jensen Iso Sub 2RX; 3 x NX6000d.
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post #17 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
with a um18 that I am satisfied with overall for the low end, but I am looking to add some higher frequency mid-bass to my setup I'm not looking to necessarily increase spl, as the wife doesn't like the power levels I can get to already; just more 50hz-150hz thump.
More mid-bass means higher SPL.
or at the very-least, a more dynamic system in the higher frequencies, which is just a fancier way of saying louder.

So if your wife is unhappy now, she will be even less happy after the upgrade.

As for what to do. I'd definitely throw the Klipsch in the trash to make room for better DIY subwoofers.

You can power 8 PA460's with a single 3kDSP, or a UM-18 on one side and quad PA460's on the other.

I put 16 PA460's in two 20x20x80 sealed boxes powered with 8000watts RMS, dual octal-opposed, so it takes up very little floor space. Obviously that is triple your budget, but it has useable bass to ~5-10hz, and above 40hz it will literally kill a person (150db @ 1m); add the other 13 18/21/24"ers subs in my room + the remaining 92kW and it goes even-louder.

Each PA460 is about ~10db more efficient than a UM-18 or any other high-excursion HT sub.
Each PA460 with 500w has about as much mid-bass as roughly 4 LMS-18's with 16kW.

Mid-bass is mostly limited by total cone area. (Heck, all bass is... )

Two PA460's is a good-start, but 4 or 8 would be MUCH better, in terms of being kicked in the head.

Last edited by BassThatHz; 11-13-2019 at 06:57 PM.
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post #18 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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The biggest leap I made in bass quality wasn’t going bigger, and it wasn’t adding a second sub near the first (the sub crawl is better than nothing but it can result in merely finding the loudest peak in the room, at least that’s what it did for me). My aha moment was when I used REW to find locations that compensated for each other’s weaknesses so as to combine to play flat. If you have a few locations that combine to play flat, what’s wrong with a um18 mini Marty in each? You should be able to grab the driver for $239 on sale, and you’ll be guaranteed they will integrate and gain match perfectly. A Devastator is a mid bass monster, but if you sit it in a mid bass null it will not deliver anything for you (... ask me how I know). My vote would be, assuming cost is a factor and assuming your locations are complimentary, add another identical sub. Second choice would be add a few 20hz tuned VBSS’s (I like the version on page 27 of the vbss thread, looks like a mini-mini-marty).
I've run rew and found the best place for um18 currently, and that's how I was also able to make use of the mediocre klipsch 12" I had laying around too.

I really don't have room for another mini Marty, unless I stick it in a less than ideal position (according to rew), that's why I was thinking of some smaller and easier to place mbm's.

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post #19 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
More mid-bass means higher SPL.

or at the very-least, a more dynamic system in the higher frequencies, which is just a fancier way of saying louder.



So if your wife is unhappy now, she will be even less happy after the upgrade.



As for what to do. I'd definitely throw the Klipsch in the trash to make room for better DIY subwoofers.



You can power 8 PA460's with a single 3kDSP, or a UM-18 on one side and quad PA460's on the other.



I put 16 PA460's in two 20x20x80 sealed boxes powered with 8000watts RMS, dual octal-opposed, so it takes up very little floor space. Obviously that is triple your budget, but it has useable bass to ~5-10hz, and above 40hz it will literally kill a person (150db @ 1m); add the other 13 18/21/24"ers subs in my room + the remaining 92kW and it goes even-louder.



Each PA460 is about ~10db more efficient than a UM-18 or any other high-excursion HT sub.

Each PA460 with 500w has about as much mid-bass as roughly 4 LMS-18's with 16kW.



Mid-bass is mostly limited by total cone area. (Heck, all bass is... )



Two PA460's is a good-start, but 4 or 8 would be MUCH better, in terms of being kicked in the head.

Right now I have a single nx3000d bridged for my one mini Marty um18, you think I can run that on just one channel? That doesn't seem like enough power, does it?

Being that the pa460's are so efficient, why does it take so many of them?

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post #20 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
Right now I have a single nx3000d bridged for my one mini Marty um18, you think I can run that on just one channel? That doesn't seem like enough power, does it?
You CAN do many things, but that doesn’t mean they’re good ideas.
I wouldn’t cripple the um by running it on one channel of the nx3000D. It will work, but not optimally.

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Being that the pa460's are so efficient, why does it take so many of them?

Because everyone here has gone off the deep end, and too much is never enough.

One PA460 will keep up with the UM easily for the missing midbass. However, using more makes it easier on the individual drivers, and give you headroom to tune to taste.
Two is the least I would build, since they’re cheap and building two isn’t much harder than building one.

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post #21 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 09:26 PM
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I've run rew and found the best place for um18 currently, and that's how I was also able to make use of the mediocre klipsch 12" I had laying around too.

I really don't have room for another mini Marty, unless I stick it in a less than ideal position (according to rew), that's why I was thinking of some smaller and easier to place mbm's.

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In that case I would take it in steps. First, a pair of vbss’s tuned to 20hz should give you plenty of additional output. You’ll need to step up to an nx6000d or add another amp for the new subs. If a minimarty and a pair of vbss’s don’t give you enough you could then look at altering the mm or adding more vbss’s. And I would definitely ditch the Klipsch, its wasting real estate that could accommodate a real sub.
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post #22 of 47 Old 11-13-2019, 09:58 PM
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i see others have suggested low tuned cabs for the pa460's as well. that's where i was going to go.

that will enhance the low end as well as the mid bass.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #23 of 47 Old 11-14-2019, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
You CAN do many things, but that doesn’t mean they’re good ideas.
I wouldn’t cripple the um by running it on one channel of the nx3000D. It will work, but not optimally.




Because everyone here has gone off the deep end, and too much is never enough.

One PA460 will keep up with the UM easily for the missing midbass. However, using more makes it easier on the individual drivers, and give you headroom to tune to taste.
Two is the least I would build, since they’re cheap and building two isn’t much harder than building one.

Chris




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Because everyone here has gone off the deep end, and too much is never enough.

I figured as much! lol

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post #24 of 47 Old 11-14-2019, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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In that case I would take it in steps. First, a pair of vbss’s tuned to 20hz should give you plenty of additional output. You’ll need to step up to an nx6000d or add another amp for the new subs. If a minimarty and a pair of vbss’s don’t give you enough you could then look at altering the mm or adding more vbss’s. And I would definitely ditch the Klipsch, its wasting real estate that could accommodate a real sub.

Why would you recommend a 20hz tuning over going higher?

Wouldn't I want them tuned up higher (31hz) to make better use of them as mbm's? My understanding is it's a compromise either way, but if I tuned them at 20hz I would get the better low end, but less mid-higher frequency. If I tuned them higher (31hz) I would get less low end, but better/more mid-high frequencies....right/wrong?

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post #25 of 47 Old 11-14-2019, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
Why would you recommend a 20hz tuning over going higher?



Wouldn't I want them tuned up higher (31hz) to make better use of them as mbm's? My understanding is it's a compromise either way, but if I tuned them at 20hz I would get the better low end, but less mid-higher frequency. If I tuned them higher (31hz) I would get less low end, but better/more mid-high frequencies....right/wrong?

You want to stay very close to the tune on the marty. 19hz, IIRC. Phase change near port tune causes cancellations if run at the same frequencies as sealed or differently tuned boxes. Thats why we’re all recommending 20hz VBSS’
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post #26 of 47 Old 11-14-2019, 07:44 AM
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Short answer, without a hint of sarcasm or attitude, is because Matt and John say so. Heck, post 22 in this thread should be all you need!

If you want a longer answer, take a look at my own vbss thread. Trying to integrate subs with different port tunes is tough. My experience was that no combination of phase, slope, timing, placement, filter, or EQ could avoid destruction of my response, usually a monster dip at the vbss tuning frequency. The only way I could get a mini Marty’s and 31 hz tuned VBSS’s to play well together was to split my signal and have the mm’s take under 40 hz and the VBSS’s over 40 hz. Some guys run this way and love it, i didn’t. You’ll have a much easier time integrating subs that have similar port tunes.

I think I saved some rew screenshots from my failed attempt if you need them. But seriously, the first sentence of my post should be all you need.
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post #27 of 47 Old 11-14-2019, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lawdogx View Post
Short answer, without a hint of sarcasm or attitude, is because Matt and John say so. Heck, post 22 in this thread should be all you need!

If you want a longer answer, take a look at my own vbss thread. Trying to integrate subs with different port tunes is tough. My experience was that no combination of phase, slope, timing, placement, filter, or EQ could avoid destruction of my response, usually a monster dip at the vbss tuning frequency. The only way I could get a mini Marty’s and 31 hz tuned VBSS’s to play well together was to split my signal and have the mm’s take under 40 hz and the VBSS’s over 40 hz. Some guys run this way and love it, i didn’t. You’ll have a much easier time integrating subs that have similar port tunes.

I think I saved some rew screenshots from my failed attempt if you need them. But seriously, the first sentence of my post should be all you need.
Ok, thanks.

I'll go with you guys say, as I'm still learning and you guys have already gone through the joys of trial and error and now know what works and what doesn't.
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post #28 of 47 Old 11-14-2019, 09:05 AM
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let us know how it goes...and yes i would go with whatever John says...
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post #29 of 47 Old 11-14-2019, 10:36 AM
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let us know how it goes...and yes i would go with whatever John says...
I agree with everything Chad says only because John said it first.


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post #30 of 47 Old 11-15-2019, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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As for what to do. I'd definitely throw the Klipsch in the trash to make room for better DIY subwoofers.


Just for kicks, I went to see what the old Klipsch (R-12SW) is worth on eBay and they're selling for $200-$250 used on there lol. That's probably 35% of a pa460 x2 build that I can make use of just by selling that off...
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Source: HTPC w/madVR, Video: Epson 5040, 150" 16:9, Audio: Onkyo RZ 830 avr, 5.1.4 Atmos setup. 5 speaker Energy C Series: L/R C300's, C C-C100, SR/SL C50's, 4 in-ceiling Micca R-8c. Subwoofer: MiniMarty um18 w/NX3000D.
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