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Disappointed with my Sealed um18's for Music. How much better would dual VBSS be?

7K views 29 replies 20 participants last post by  Augerhandle 
#1 ·
Strictly for music purposes in a 2 channel setup.

Unfortunately, I bought a pair of sealed ultimax subs and they're just the worst for music. Plenty of rumble but no actual bass in music!

There are a few different tunings for VBSS subs with one being more HT application as I understand it - would using the home theater tune make for a worse sub for musical purposes?

I already have an amp ( nu6000d ) which I would likely sell to buy a smaller amp for the 2x VBSS subs.

Any input would be GREATLY appreciated!
 
#2 ·
Strictly for music purposes in a 2 channel setup.

Unfortunately, I bought a pair of sealed ultimax subs and they're just the worst for music. Plenty of rumble but no actual bass in music!

There are a few different tunings for VBSS subs with one being more HT application as I understand it - would using the home theater tune make for a worse sub for musical purposes?

I already have an amp ( nu6000d ) which I would likely sell to buy a smaller amp for the 2x VBSS subs.

Any input would be GREATLY appreciated!

Keep your 6000.... build 2X 31Hz VBSS for music duty..... I have these as the bass section of my 3way mains..... you will love them....


Juju
 
#3 ·
2x Um18 sealed boxes should be outputting enough bass for 99% of people. Have you measured the response in your room? Could be a room issue, could be an issue with the subs or amp. Can’t really determine much without measurements. The VBSS are great, but really need multiples to shine. I can’t remember the ratio, but you would need more than 2x VBSS just to equal 2x UM18s. The VBSS do have better top end, which may help in music, but you should be able to EQ what you have for similar effect.

If you are in the other 1% and need crazy amounts of bass, you will need to add a lot more cone area, larger boxes, etc.
 
#6 ·
Hi,

Let me ask you about your sealed UM18's - have you measured them with a Umik-1 and REW? Have you applied the parametric EQ's with your 6000d? Maybe you can post a screenshot of your system response with the UM18's? There are many folks on this forum that can very quickly analyze those response curves and offer smart suggestions. I'm not very adept at this - I'll let the others chime in.

If you do decide to the go the VBSS route, I wouldn't sell your 6000d. Keep it. It will do great with the VBSS subs. I run my VBSS's from about 150 Hz on down. This allows me to bump up the mid-bass a lot. I have 10 of these VBSS subs in my garage and I'm close to having nightclub level bass for music. I love them. My guess is that you really miss the mid-bass.

Just another thought, maybe consider building two mini-marty's using your UM18's?

Good luck! I'm sure you'll get the bass you're after

Dave
 
#7 ·
The midbass! That's the term I was looking for!

Yes - That's what I'm after. The sealed um18 offers me very little in the way of midbass, and while i'm certain my room has a lot to do with it, I was under the impression that the um18 is inherently really bad for midbass? Is that just something you can tune?


I will post a picture of my REW results tomorrow as I do not have it on my work computer. The graph is not pretty, but it's really the best I can do with my room as it is now.

Also, I've had these subs in 3 different rooms now as I've moved since I purchased them, and I have not been satisfied with their performance in any of them!


2x Um18 sealed boxes should be outputting enough bass for 99% of people. Have you measured the response in your room? Could be a room issue, could be an issue with the subs or amp. Can’t really determine much without measurements. The VBSS are great, but really need multiples to shine. I can’t remember the ratio, but you would need more than 2x VBSS just to equal 2x UM18s. The VBSS do have better top end, which may help in music, but you should be able to EQ what you have for similar effect.

If you are in the other 1% and need crazy amounts of bass, you will need to add a lot more cone area, larger boxes, etc.
It's not so much the volume i'm after, it's the feeling when listening to music. When I'm at a concert, I can feel the bassline, even if it isn't as loud as my subs are when I stand right next to them - But I can't feel them! I don't know if that makes sense, I believe the term is midbass.
 
#9 ·
domdom, as a couple members have already mentioned, a dual VBSS setup will get you where you want to be. Trust me.



My subwoofer build path started with a UM18 in a mini-marty with a NX3000D. I was also looking for a 99% music only setup. I wish I had done a little more research first. The UM18 definitely rumbled the very low stuff in bass-boosted songs, but it didn't impress me the way I thought it would. Next step, I built a pair of 31hz-tuned VBSS. These were a game changer for me. For music, they are great. I liked them so much, I built a second pair of 31hz VBSS and a NX6000D to power them. As of current, I have a quad VBSS setup for music and I'm very happy. The beauty of the VBSS is how inexpensively you can achieve great mid-bass, which is also where most music plays too. The only thing I can see myself doing in the future is adding more VBSS.
 
#10 ·
I was in same boat as you, I have 4 18's sealed in my living room upstairs, music lacks what I would call punch. Downstairs I paired a 15" PA speaker with dual VBSS tuned to 30hz and they kick some serious ass. Keep the 6000 and just limit the power, no need to sell it.
 
#14 ·
I absolutely understand that different designs have different strengths and weaknesses, but it's been a recent phenomenon to consider something like the UM18 as "bad" at midbass.

What does that mean? How do you quantify it? These are more rhetorical questions.

Remember back in the day when people thought sealed boxes were "tight" and ported boxes were "boomy"? Then we learned that -while there are differences- much of that is proper design and above all, implementation into the room/system. For the most part, I believe the same about the recent midbass blues oft written about.

I've found massive differences in my perception of mid/upper bass with minor target eq changes. I'm no golden ears, but I'm talking 1dB shift around the area of the knee of my house curve, and while I cannot hear
 
#15 ·
The UM18 is good for midbass, its not the greatest but it isn't bad either. It just lacks the dynamic headroom in midbass to really give us that live performance. The few things going against the UM18 has to deal with its response is an incredibly flat response and a heavy cone.

The flat response actually has a slight tilt up to the mid 30's in a sealed 4cu/f box. This is pretty awesome for such a cheap driver that can also get into the teens pretty easily.

The heavy cone doesn't translate to what a lot of people will tell you. It just sucks for midbass because it loses sensitivity in the midbass region and with music that constantly hammers those notes will cause the voice coil to heat up. With the lack of motion, extra power and lack of area to dissipate the heat into (Sealed box and all) you come up with a very mild performer.

I primarily listen to music with sealed UM18's and am not disappointed. But pretty soon I'll be listening to two NSW-21's and the UM's might find their way into my Jeep.
 
#19 ·
The UM's are definitely weaker on the mid-bass side of things compared to the PA's....and even the HO's for that matter. Hence, the preference to use the PA's in the VBSS's. Plus, they're a MUCH BETTER bang for the buck alternative, which translates to MOAR!! WIN/WIN for mid-bass! :D
 
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#21 ·
Strictly for music purposes in a 2 channel setup.



Unfortunately, I bought a pair of sealed ultimax subs and they're just the worst for music. Plenty of rumble but no actual bass in music!



There are a few different tunings for VBSS subs with one being more HT application as I understand it - would using the home theater tune make for a worse sub for musical purposes?



I already have an amp ( nu6000d ) which I would likely sell to buy a smaller amp for the 2x VBSS subs.



Any input would be GREATLY appreciated!
I have a single mini Marty um18 for HT use and I'm getting ready to add 2 Pa460 vbss subs myself, for that mid-bass boost I'm missing in the um18.

It's supposed to be a cheap(ish) and easy solution for more chest-slam.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 
#22 ·
I had the same issue using a Dayton SPA1000 plate amp... A lot of sub-bass but no mid-bass. I had to adjust the sub amp EQ parameters to get the mid-bass to get a flat EQ. I also had to set the crossover frequency on the amp and AVR to 200 Hz. After that, I ran the AVR auto-EQ calibration and all was fine...
 
#24 · (Edited)
There is nothing wrong with any driver, if you buy 32 18's of them (preferably also with full power for each).
You are probably like every other basshead.

There are two types of people. Normal people and bassheads. If two 18's ain't enough, you already know which camp you are in.

If I were you I'd keep the UM's and 6k, move the UM's to ch 1 at 8-ohm, and put 8 PA-460's on channel 2 series-parallel 4ohms.
Then save up for another 6k for a more properly implemented power structure balance.

That would give you 10 18's for about $712, maybe less with discount codes.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Strictly for music purposes in a 2 channel setup.

Unfortunately, I bought a pair of sealed ultimax subs and they're just the worst for music. Plenty of rumble but no actual bass in music!...Any input would be GREATLY appreciated!
Why are you using SUB-woofers for MID and LOW bass? You need REGULAR woofers for that.
 
#28 · (Edited)
You absolutely are having frequency response issues. Realistically it's not *too bad* 70hz on down depending on how you measured etc and what your goal is. There is about a 12dB difference between 85hz and 120hz, and around 170hz there are some modes you should try to deal with (alternate placements for you or your subs, also relative to one another, delay, etc.). Then at 200hz you come back into the game and it's all gone to **** again most of the way to 300hz. This is the important upper bass area and one I'm super sensitive to. Too much upper bass makes me want to throw up. Weak upper bass is anticlimactic and, well, weak. Juuuuust right make the world right again.

Some of this stuff is normal room response, but IMO, again assuming this measurement is either averaged or representative of your listening position, lots could be improved, particularly in the areas you've articulated concern.

Chris
 

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