SI 24” face to face driver arrangement help please - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 41 Old 11-26-2019, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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SI 24” face to face driver arrangement help please

Edit. Picked back up to where others helped previously when I got stuck so most of the way there. Need help regardless but have hornresp up and running if anyone can chime in on if am heading in the correct direction.




Well ADDICTED is all I can say. Just ordered more sub drivers.

Need help modeling these 24s for a face to face application similar to Kieth Yates Uber Sub in Rob Hahn’s theater.

I have plenty of space for these but would like to use manifolds with them firing towards each other if possible. These are for ULF extension so if anyone could please help model these that would be great.

Amps are FP20Ks 220V ran at 4 ohms per 2Ohm DVC driver. Power limiting them is fine by me as long as the cabinets are optimized for extension.

I would like to learn how to model drivers in this orientation if someone doesn’t mind showing the steps needed?

Bests
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post #2 of 41 Old 11-26-2019, 05:53 PM
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What is the minimum, maximum and preferred space you have to work with?

I think they will need precise measurements for all panel lengths / volumes / distances involved.

Also room dimensions and listening distance.
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post #3 of 41 Old 11-26-2019, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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SI 24” face to face driver arrangement help please

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
What is the minimum, maximum and preferred space you have to work with?



I think they will need precise measurements for all panel lengths / volumes / distances involved.



Also room dimensions and listening distance.


My room will be 32’-33’x18’x10’ from front of baffle wall, 35’ shell but can use up to 3.5’ for baffle wall and screen.

So the front baffle can be 18’/3 pairs of drivers wide. I would say no more than 40” tall for each pair.

So technically up to 40-45cuft or more space is available per driver.

Listening distances are 12’ and 18.5’ I believe. I can get exact measurements if needed.

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post #4 of 41 Old 11-30-2019, 12:35 PM
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I know that the 24's like large sealed boxes, and even bigger boxes when porting.
Are you firing them into each other to increase power density?

I would just do the minimal inset, so just over 12inches for a 24, that should keep any potential issues from that design to a minimum.

Technically you could gain 6db over ported by horning them, I'm not sure if anyone has horned a 24 before...
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post #5 of 41 Old 11-30-2019, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Technically you could gain 6db over ported by horning them, I'm not sure if anyone has horned a 24 before...

I believe John started working on a design. It was abandoned after realizing it needed 120 cu ft.

Chris
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post #6 of 41 Old 11-30-2019, 01:46 PM
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@redfive has a preliminary version of the Devistator that is in the 35cf range for the HS-24 that should be very impressive. Not sure if he ever got that fully fleshed out but i am pondering that as one possibility for mine.
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post #7 of 41 Old 11-30-2019, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy_J View Post
@redfive has a preliminary version of the Devistator that is in the 35cf range for the HS-24 that should be very impressive. Not sure if he ever got that fully fleshed out but i am pondering that as one possibility for mine.
I haven't fully fleshed them out. Waiting for someone serious about them before I dive into it.

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post #8 of 41 Old 12-01-2019, 09:00 PM
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You have to model that in hornresp. You’ll need the box volume and the specs for the slot between the drivers. I don’t personally know how to model them. Search around for “slot loaded” and you’ll find some info. But you will need to know your way around hornresp.
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post #9 of 41 Old 12-02-2019, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
You have to model that in hornresp. You’ll need the box volume and the specs for the slot between the drivers. I don’t personally know how to model them. Search around for “slot loaded” and you’ll find some info. But you will need to know your way around hornresp.


Correct but I need someone to show me how. I have tried to learn before but nobody would show me how to get them to plot a graph that didn’t experience issues from max SPL.

I will link my previous attempt where I couldn’t get anything to model correctly or couldn’t figure out what to do for graphs other than max spl which never worked in my alignments.


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post #10 of 41 Old 12-02-2019, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
You have to model that in hornresp. You’ll need the box volume and the specs for the slot between the drivers. I don’t personally know how to model them. Search around for “slot loaded” and you’ll find some info. But you will need to know your way around hornresp.


Here is my previous attempt.


Help Please. Similar to Procella V6
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...ink_source=app


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post #11 of 41 Old 12-02-2019, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I know that the 24's like large sealed boxes, and even bigger boxes when porting.

Are you firing them into each other to increase power density?



I would just do the minimal inset, so just over 12inches for a 24, that should keep any potential issues from that design to a minimum.



Technically you could gain 6db over ported by horning them, I'm not sure if anyone has horned a 24 before...


Keith uses them in this alignment for extension into the ULF is my understanding from his “Uber Sub” writeup. That and lower distortion along with a bunch other other call outs, etc... less vibration, coverage, list goes on and on lol

I’m sure he is keeping his secrets close for his own reasons but just wanted to see if going this route had any advantages. I’ve tried to model some pro drivers for MBMs before but was getting stuck in hornresp on something technical is my guess. I’ve attached a link to my previous try with LAB 12s for MBMs.

I want all my subs to be sealed for sure. I def could gain more spl but I want 5hz as loud as I can get it in the end.


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post #12 of 41 Old 12-02-2019, 05:57 PM
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If you are doing sealed then it isn't slot-loaded.

If you are doing sealed and can't flush mount them, then just do the shallowest inset, I don't think there will be anything BUT disadvantages to deeper manifolds when sealed, but I could be wrong...
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post #13 of 41 Old 12-02-2019, 06:32 PM
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I think he's doing IB. Right, avh?

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post #14 of 41 Old 12-02-2019, 06:59 PM
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Slot loaded doesn’t need to be ported. It can be any order. Just need a plenum.

Here is some good info if you’re bored:

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...nclosures.html
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post #15 of 41 Old 12-03-2019, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I think he's doing IB. Right, avh?


Not for these I don’t think. I think these will work best in large sealed.

But yes, I may do some ceiling IB manifolds if I need more extension down low once I run out of space inside the room.


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post #16 of 41 Old 12-03-2019, 05:46 PM
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If you want to hit a qtc of .7 they are better off in a IB.
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post #17 of 41 Old 12-03-2019, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
If you are doing sealed then it isn't slot-loaded.



If you are doing sealed and can't flush mount them, then just do the shallowest inset, I don't think there will be anything BUT disadvantages to deeper manifolds when sealed, but I could be wrong...


Yes sealed is my plan for these and am just wanting to see if there is any advantage using a manifold/plenum style enclosure like Keith Yates uses for his promoted “Uber Sub” (huge sealed in manifolds/plenums). He gets great response down into single digits with his alignments.

Bass, I have plenty of room to mount these in any alignment, period in all seriousness. But I have always preferred sealed for the low ULF movie stuff in the theater so am just wanting to see if there are any benefits by loading them in any way. This will also allow for me to fit more drivers on the front wall as well which I am always in favor coupling when possible.

If anyone wouldn’t mind helping I would greatly appreciate it! I am almost there in the modeling just some tiny technical issues I believe.


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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
If you want to hit a qtc of .7 they are better off in a IB.


Care to show what you are referring to...?


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post #19 of 41 Old 12-04-2019, 02:45 AM
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I can this evening. If you model a sealed box in HR and use the Lossy function qtc goes from .7 to 1.1 in a 9 cut box
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
I can this evening. If you model a sealed box in HR and use the Lossy function qtc goes from .7 to 1.1 in a 9 cut box


Right. I just haven’t modeled these yet so curious what large sealed looks like compared and power handling etc...


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post #21 of 41 Old 12-04-2019, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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SI 24” face to face driver arrangement help please

And just so I know I’m clear on my understanding on how QTC functions vs my wants/needs with this enclosure- if I want more extension into the ULF range I want a QTC of like .50 or lower for less roll off.

I really wish there was Mac software. This is ridiculous in today’s technology that there aren’t speaker programs for OS!!!! I mean it’s only the most user friendly, widely used, and most accepted software in today’s portable device age lol. I haven’t had a cpu hooked up in years and don’t even know where my charger/cord is at. I guess I need to just man up and accept the fact that I “have” to get that old crusty laptop running again even though I literally have 4 iPads that are my childrens’, a MacBook Pro, 6 iPhones (mine plus children), and a iPad Pro. Wow that’s too many apple products and I never even once have claimed to be an apple fanboy. The children have always asked for iPods and used phones when upgraded over the years and now it’s apparent that the entire house is run by OS even though it was never planned that way by any means. My wife and I have just preferred iPhones over android but now have literally made the switch without putting any thought into it lol. The MacBook is basically for networking, photos and paying bills. Neither me or my wife ever open it for casual internet use.

We have multiple Kindles, a Sony tablet that came with the VW1100es projector, and a few dead laptops that crashed, that one laptop I purchased just for hornresp to learn how to model the plenum when I tried learning how to do it. I never was able to get it totally ironed out and gave up but now am actually building my baffle wall for these new 24s.

I tried switching to a Note back about 5 years ago but had to return it within the 30 day window because all the functions that was used to on the iPhone weren’t available on it. Just simple stuff I took for granted weren’t on the android which surprised me greatly.


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post #22 of 41 Old 12-04-2019, 06:05 PM
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Lower Q will roll off slower but start higher, higher Q will roll off quicker but start lower.



10 cuft before driver displacement


Grey Q is .7, red is with the Lossy tab



Grey Q is .42, red is Lossy. 200cuft IB
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SI 24” face to face driver arrangement help please

Deleted was incorrect.....

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SI 24” face to face driver arrangement help please

Same...

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post #25 of 41 Old 12-05-2019, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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SI 24” face to face driver arrangement help please

Last edit I hope....

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post #26 of 41 Old 12-05-2019, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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SI 24” face to face driver arrangement help please

Ok. I think I was missing the “OD” for the second driver.

Here are newest graphs....







Sorry for the screen shots but don’t have all my login info for forums and stuff on the old laptop so need to capture the images to post from another device. Apologies.

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post #27 of 41 Old 12-05-2019, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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SI 24” face to face driver arrangement help please

These are Keith Yates manifolds that I am interested in designing something very similar.





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post #28 of 41 Old 12-06-2019, 04:40 AM
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Enclosure is too small your numbers look off.


Model as a sealed enclosure which should be ND. Rule of thumb is enclosure should be 10xVAS I wouldn't go any lower than 5 as much air as those move. Make sure you are using rear lined under Tools.

As you can see Yates kept them as shallow and small as possible just do the same. Resonance should be above the passband, run them 50hz down.
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post #29 of 41 Old 12-06-2019, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Enclosure is too small your numbers look off.





Model as a sealed enclosure which should be ND. Rule of thumb is enclosure should be 10xVAS I wouldn't go any lower than 5 as much air as those move. Make sure you are using rear lined under Tools.



As you can see Yates kept them as shallow and small as possible just do the same. Resonance should be above the passband, run them 50hz down.


I thought “OD” is what placed the drivers in the sides firing towards each other hence offset? That’s how I was told to model the slot in hornresp.

What I am not sure about is the orientation of the drivers firing into the slot though. It appears that they are positioned on top and bottom instead of sideways just by trying to interpret the schematic.

I’m all for modeling them without using OD if knew how to go about placing the centers of each driver where I want them?

And yes I understand 10x vas for IB etc.... I’m trying to model in sealed then once I know have a somewhat accurate model then will see how IB compares. I have plenty of drivers to choose from for IB/sealed but need to use sealed drivers in the baffle wall as there isn’t enough volume to run IB on the baffle wall and I don’t like the idea of IB on the baffle wall. IB will just be used in the ceiling and only after the room is completely full of sealed cabinets that way I can place them accordingly. Most likely directly above the seating will be the ultimate positions as smoothing the FR shouldn’t be needed once there are that many subs inside the room so near field IB will help spls in the ULF range and add some chest compressing in the 40-60hz range that everyone typically wants MBMs to fill and then some.

Positioning is key with all subs but if I’m able to basically use a couple manifolds directly over the seats from properly optimizing the room with sealed subs then that would be most beneficial. When I had ten sealed 21s lined across the front (8 21s then one stacked on the outer most left and right sides) my FR was smooth to +/-3db from 8hz to 80hz easily with my untrained EQing. I lost some headroom and didn’t like that aspect of it so hoping this time around building my baffle wall to house stacks, use stacks in the rear, and lining the side walls will help avoid needing to EQ anywhere nearly as much as before.

Hope that made sense. I know I’m way over kill but heck LT20 LCRs with 15,500 watts of MC^2 240V amps are as well.


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post #30 of 41 Old 12-06-2019, 09:19 PM
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OD is modeling a horn with the driver down from the throat instead of in it.

Are you using the Yates manifold for the front sealed drivers in the baffle? U baffle could work, transmission line box assuming its resonance you're concerned with.
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