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post #1 of 46 Old 11-27-2019, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Need some nearfield permanent build options

First, a bit about me, my space and system:

I own a custom cabinet shop and was a general contractor before that so I can build anything you throw at me. My room is 19x15x10 but I only use 12.5' of the 19' width for my home theater (see attached pic). There is 41" high millwork behind the sofa but is otherwise open to the rest of the 4800sf house. My system consists of a Marantz SR7013 head unit with Polk Signatures all around. S60 fronts, s15 surrounds, S30 center, MC80 heights, HTS12 subs. I also have a LSiM 706c that I might swap in for the center, but haven't A/B'd them yet. My use of the space is 50%TV, 30% movies, 20% music but the system really doesn't get used for general TV watching, which is typically at relatively low volumes. Actual system use therefore is closer to 60% Movies and 40% music, but even then I often go 2 channel with music. Current speaker placements aren't ideal but I had a beam and a post to deal with so it is what it is and with calibration, it works.

What I want:

Due to cost and WAF, I can't have massive subs visible so the HTS12 pair will have to do. Don't get me wrong, they are very effective at drawing us into a movie and are surprisingly good from the mid 20's and up. They vibrate the house, including dishes in the back wall of the kitchen 50' away. What they don't provide is that elusive chest punch. I also don't know what I'm missing under 20hz (ignorance is bliss?)

How to get (hopefully) what I want:

I have 3 boxes behind my sofa that I can repurpose (see hashed area in attached pic). Each box has internal dimensions of 31.75x31x12 giving a volume of 6.8cuft for each. I won't be using those boxes (melamine). I will pull out 1,2 or all 3 and build a proper braced enclosure for whatever I need. The boxes are attached to the floor on a kick as well as to the post on the right and the wall to the left. I may need decoupling solutions. My basement is currently being finished so I'm pressed to bring whatever wiring is needed behind my sofa while the ceiling below is open. I don't really have a set budget, but whatever equipment I end up with should take the current setup in consideration. I don't know much, if anything about DIY builds to achieve my goal. This is where you bright minds come in.

Aaaaand....GO! 😁
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post #2 of 46 Old 11-27-2019, 02:40 PM
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If that was me? 2-4 x B&C/La Voice ported 21s.... That would give you everything but the lowest hz. You will get chest thump out the butt, very high spl, low distortion. Depending on the tune.

Could also go cheaper with some pa460s and a few UM18s.
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post #3 of 46 Old 11-27-2019, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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If that was me? 2-4 x B&C/La Voice ported 21s.... That would give you everything but the lowest hz. You will get chest thump out the butt, very high spl, low distortion. Depending on the tune.

Could also go cheaper with some pa460s and a few UM18s.
I'm a complete noob on the DIY side...not sure what any of that means lol. I'm guessing the first one is some quantity of 21" subs and the second are some 18s? Might need more detail about box size, etc... especially what wires I need to pull.

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post #4 of 46 Old 11-27-2019, 03:00 PM
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I'm a complete noob on the DIY side...not sure what any of that means lol. I'm guessing the first one is some quantity of 21" subs and the second are some 18s? Might need more detail about box size, etc... especially what wires I need to pull.
The only wires will be for how many speakers you choose to put there.
Also if you decided to put plate amps or pro amps... Then you would need to run a RCA/XLR for signal to the amps.

It all comes down to your budget and how big you can go. From your first post, you have roughly 6.8 cf x 3 correct?
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post #5 of 46 Old 11-27-2019, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Correct. I can do 6.8, 13.6 or 20.4 cuft but I may lose some volume if I have to recess the subs. Don't want them hitting the back of the couch. I don't mind using all of the space but I don't want it to overpower everything else. I can put amps near the subs or in the av cabinet...whatever is best.

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post #6 of 46 Old 11-28-2019, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Bump. Am I in the wrong room?

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post #7 of 46 Old 11-28-2019, 06:00 PM
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I would try to do three ported boxes in your space behind the couch, plus a BOSS (open baffle shaker) under the couch. With 6cuft each you can probably port down somewhere around 20-25Hz, and then the BOSS will shake the couch down to around 5Hz. The 21” PA drivers like the LaVoce mentioned above are popular lately, and for the BOSS people often use cheap JBL 12” drivers. For the amp, something like the XBS FP20k would give you four amp channels, and you can either get one with DSP or go with a MiniDSP 2x4 if you want to use BassEQ. Total cost would be around $3k. For the pre-wiring just run four sets of 12AWG wires - the Monoproce OFHC copper strand in wall is popular.

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post #8 of 46 Old 11-28-2019, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I would try to do three ported boxes in your space behind the couch, plus a BOSS (open baffle shaker) under the couch. With 6cuft each you can probably port down somewhere around 20-25Hz, and then the BOSS will shake the couch down to around 5Hz. The 21â€Â PA drivers like the LaVoce mentioned above are popular lately, and for the BOSS people often use cheap JBL 12â€Â drivers. For the amp, something like the XBS FP20k would give you four amp channels, and you can either get one with DSP or go with a MiniDSP 2x4 if you want to use BassEQ. Total cost would be around $3k. For the pre-wiring just run four sets of 12AWG wires - the Monoproce OFHC copper strand in wall is popular.
Thanks Frisco! Wife won't want to do a platform under the sectional so if the boss can be done without raising the seating, I all for it. I also don't want the nearfield to drown out the rest of the system. I spent less than $3k for the 5.2.4 including the marantz so far. Wouldn't putting in another $3k just for sub 25hz be out of balance? Or is this what it takes?

As for the wiring, it seems you're suggesting I should have the amp near the AVR and run speaker wires to the back of the sofa, correct? Is that better than having a longer connector from the AVR to amp and shorter speaker cable runs?

Thanks for the response and please bear with my noobness. As you can tell, this is my first foray into the DIY world.

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post #9 of 46 Old 11-28-2019, 08:53 PM
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Amp location is your decision - almost every amp has cooling fans so ideally it’d be in a different room. When they are in the same room many people replace the fans but that’s often a soldering job.

The subs would do the same thing your existing subs do, just better. You should have significantly lower distortion, more headroom, and better dynamic range. You’ll have chest slam and higher fidelity. And you could get rid of the existing subs to open up the room for WAF, or alternatively to make space for new LCR.

If you meant that you just wanted something to reproduce frequencies below 20Hz then I might have misunderstood your post. Sealed subs are generally doing <20Hz. But ported will give you far more output in the range of ~20-40Hz.

The BOSS can just be a sheet of plywood screwed to the bottom of the couch. You won’t see it if you do it right. The only thing you’d see are the rubber isolator feet.
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post #10 of 46 Old 11-29-2019, 01:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FriscoDTM View Post

The BOSS can just be a sheet of plywood screwed to the bottom of the couch. You won&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;t see it if you do it right. The only thing you&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;d see are the rubber isolator feet.
I'm definitely game for the BOSS but will do what @Archaea did and mount it directly to each section of my sectional. Do you know if I need isolators under the legs if i do this? The hideaway thread is so long and I can't find any info about it.

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post #11 of 46 Old 11-29-2019, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Darren Chan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FriscoDTM View Post

The BOSS can just be a sheet of plywood screwed to the bottom of the couch. You won&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;t see it if you do it right. The only thing you&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;d see are the rubber isolator feet.
I'm definitely game for the BOSS but will do what @Archaea did and mount it directly to each section of my sectional. Do you know if I need isolators under the legs if i do this? The hideaway thread is so long and I can't find any info about it.
I recommend the isolators. The squishy feel helps emphasis the wobble of the lowest bass notes. Heres a little demonstration video I made of how much difference the Hudson Hifi 2,5” isolater feet make.

https://imgur.com/gallery/CFnsSx4


They have a durometer rating just above gummy bears. I don’t think they are absolutely necessary with direct mount, (I do think they are necessary with BOSS platforms) but they are a worth their expense with direct mount - which is 4 per chair or $25 per chair.

2.5" Platinum Silicone Hemisphere Bumper, Non-Skid Isolation Feet with Adhesive | 20 Duro | 4 Pack https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079SV39KW..._1Rs4DbREG9Y9D
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post #12 of 46 Old 11-29-2019, 10:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks @Archaea . Just watched the vid... that's a lot of wiggle, lol. Not sure how the wife will feel about that. I may have to compromise a bit and get one of the smaller bumpers. She also doesn't want to see anything under there so I'll have to attach the bumpers directly under the legs of the sectional. Just purchased 4 JBL's so turning back now.

As for the nearfields, are they still necessary? What do they provide?

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post #13 of 46 Old 11-29-2019, 10:34 PM
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Thanks @Archaea . Just watched the vid... that's a lot of wiggle, lol. Not sure how the wife will feel about that. I may have to compromise a bit and get one of the smaller bumpers. She also doesn't want to see anything under there so I'll have to attach the bumpers directly under the legs of the sectional. Just purchased 4 JBL's so turning back now.

As for the nearfields, are they still necessary? What do they provide?
Nearfield are still worthwhile, IMO.

What they provide, or how redundant they are after direct mount BOSS is probably unique to each implementation, EQ, and piece of furniture. The boss shakes more than the nearfield 18”. But I like both together. Combined is best for my setup.
@carp got rid of his nearfield when he put the Boss in as nearfield didn't seem to add anything worthwhile over his Boss platform and Crowson setup and he'd rather have the space back. YMMV.
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post #14 of 46 Old 11-29-2019, 10:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Nearfield are still worthwhile, IMO.

What they provide, or how redundant they are after direct mount BOSS is probably unique to each implementation, EQ, and piece of furniture. The boss shakes more than the nearfield 18”. But I like both together. Combined is best for my setup.
@carp got rid of his nearfield when he put the Boss in as nearfield didn't seem to add anything worthwhile over his Boss platform and Crowson setup and he'd rather have the space back. YMMV.
Good to know. Maybe I'll set up the direct mount BOSS first and see how it is. Any amp recommendations? I don't have a lot of room in my AV cabinet but it is actively vented. I have lots of space in the cabinets behind the sofa and can add ventilation if needed. Just need to run cabling now before I close up the basement ceiling. I imagine the amp can be remotely activated right?

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post #15 of 46 Old 11-29-2019, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Nearfield are still worthwhile, IMO.

What they provide, or how redundant they are after direct mount BOSS is probably unique to each implementation, EQ, and piece of furniture. The boss shakes more than the nearfield 18”. But I like both together. Combined is best for my setup.
@carp got rid of his nearfield when he put the Boss in as nearfield didn't seem to add anything worthwhile over his Boss platform and Crowson setup and he'd rather have the space back. YMMV.
Good to know. Maybe I'll set up the direct mount BOSS first and see how it is. Any amp recommendations? I don't have a lot of room in my AV cabinet but it is actively vented. I have lots of space in the cabinets behind the sofa and can add ventilation if needed. Just need to run cabling now before I close up the basement ceiling. I imagine the amp can be remotely activated right?
NX3000D or maybe 1000D depending on how many subs you are running is a great match. It has an onboard DSP which is essential for tuning the BOSS IMO. (That or external DSP). Youll need to apply delay, power limiting, and a shelf filter. All can be done (relatively cheaper) with the NX30000D amps or similar.

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Ya, Boss isnt a replacement for NF subs. It's like adding bass shakers.
I even have 3 x UXL 18s as my BOSS drivers and still think NF is far superior.
People like the boss because generally, they use cheap drivers and it's cheap to build, much cheaper than actual shakers.
I was one that ended up taking mine out, I didn't feel it added anything over what I already had with my NF and shakers system (though mine was bonkers lol).... Now I just have to get off my lazy butt and build my NF SKRams so I can get back to business.
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post #17 of 46 Old 11-30-2019, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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NX3000D or maybe 1000D depending on how many subs you are running is a great match. It has an onboard DSP which is essential for tuning the BOSS IMO. (That or external DSP). Youll need to apply delay, power limiting, and a shelf filter. All can be done (relatively cheaper) with the NX30000D amps or similar.
I'll be running 4 JBLs in the modified BOSS. If I end up doing nearfields, it'll likely be two UM18-22's. The 3000D looks like the best bang for buck. I don't suppose the 3000D could power the NF as well could it?

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@Darren Chan

Not two + BOSS on one amp

You’ll want a NX6000D for your two UM18-22. One driver per channel.

And a NX3000D or a NX1000D for the boss.

I'll be running 4 JBLs in the modified BOSS. If I end up doing nearfields, it'll likely be two UM18-22's. The 3000D looks like the best bang for buck. I don't suppose the 3000D could power the NF as well could it?

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post #19 of 46 Old 11-30-2019, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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@Darren Chan

Not two + BOSS on one amp

You’ll want a NX6000D for your two UM18-22. One driver per channel.

And a NX3000D or a NX1000D for the boss.
Ok I won't be able to fit 2 more amps in my AV cabinet. Gonna have to put them behind the sofa. What cables do I need to pull for the 3000D and 6000D? Just 1 subwoofer cable and put a Y adapter to split to the 2 amps? My AVR is a Marantz sr7013. I can bring a 20A circuit to the area.

Dumb question...how do I turn on the amps remotely?

Thanks for walking me through this. It's much appreciated!

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post #20 of 46 Old 11-30-2019, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Ya, Boss isnt a replacement for NF subs. It's like adding bass shakers.
I even have 3 x UXL 18s as my BOSS drivers and still think NF is far superior.
People like the boss because generally, they use cheap drivers and it's cheap to build, much cheaper than actual shakers.
I was one that ended up taking mine out, I didn't feel it added anything over what I already had with my NF and shakers system (though mine was bonkers lol).... Now I just have to get off my lazy butt and build my NF SKRams so I can get back to business.
Thanks for the input Nate &#x1f44d;

I'll start with the BOSS first as it's cheap to do. Will likely do NF as well after. I don't need crazy bass (it's my livingroom after all). Do you think two 18-22's powered by the 6000D is suitable ( balanced) for my system?

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post #21 of 46 Old 12-01-2019, 09:10 AM
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I wouldn't dismiss using the boxes behind for nearfield instead of a BOSS setup. It need not be expensive for your needs.

Biggest question I have is whether you can combine the space in those three "boxes" to create one or two larger enclosures?

I ask because the total volume split in two is just about right for two ported Dayton PA460 enclosures (it's a $99 parts express 18" driver) which can be driven easily by a $250 behringer nx1000 amplifier or a variety of plate amps depending on where would best to mount an amp in your situation.

Without combining the space a sealed setup with 3 pa460 is possible but in that case exploring ported and sealed options with other drivers would be worthwhile too.

Point is, parts and materials total for well under $1k is perfectly doable and would still give tons of output.
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post #22 of 46 Old 12-01-2019, 09:26 AM
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Need some nearfield permanent build options

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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post
I ask because the total volume split in two is just about right for two ported Dayton PA460 enclosures (it's a $99 parts express 18" driver) which can be driven easily by a $250 behringer nx1000 amplifier or a variety of plate amps depending on where would best to mount an amp in your situation.

Without combining the space a sealed setup with 3 pa460 is possible but in that case exploring ported and sealed options with other drivers would be worthwhile too.

Point is, parts and materials total for well under $1k is perfectly doable and would still give tons of output.
Was thinking the same thing, but would go with a NX3000d instead if the 1k. Prices are close enough and if it gives more future options.

EDIT: or even better option, use 1 channel for PA460’s and the other for boss.

Chris
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post #23 of 46 Old 12-01-2019, 11:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I wouldn't dismiss using the boxes behind for nearfield instead of a BOSS setup. It need not be expensive for your needs.

Biggest question I have is whether you can combine the space in those three "boxes" to create one or two larger enclosures?

I ask because the total volume split in two is just about right for two ported Dayton PA460 enclosures (it's a $99 parts express 18" driver) which can be driven easily by a $250 behringer nx1000 amplifier or a variety of plate amps depending on where would best to mount an amp in your situation.

Without combining the space a sealed setup with 3 pa460 is possible but in that case exploring ported and sealed options with other drivers would be worthwhile too.

Point is, parts and materials total for well under $1k is perfectly doable and would still give tons of output.
I can definitely combine the boxes. I have a total of 20 cuft to work with. If I'm only adding 1 amp, I can keep it in the AV cabinet in the front of the room. If more than 1, I can place in millwork behind sofa. Oh, I also have 4 Polk atrium 5 outdoor speakers I need to power and those do terminate in the av cabinet. If that can be incorporated, even better.

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post #24 of 46 Old 12-01-2019, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post

Was thinking the same thing, but would go with a NX3000d instead if the 1k. Prices are close enough and if it gives more future options.

EDIT: or even better option, use 1 channel for PA460&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s and the other for boss.

Chris
Yeah, if choosing between the 2, I'd step up to the 3000.

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post #25 of 46 Old 12-01-2019, 11:46 PM
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Plenty of amp choices, the dsp version can certainly be useful.

Search for the VBSS thread(s) in this forum. All the guidance you'd need for ensure size and porting. 20 cu ft is perfect, might even allow a touch lower tuning. The VBSS design isn't really meant for the single digit Hz output realm so if that's something you want to chase spend a little more time researching options. What the VBSS would give you nearfield is tremendous output for very modest cost and with the close nearfield placement and a little larger than typical enclosure may even be able to nudge response down low enough to not go chasing any further.
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post #26 of 46 Old 12-02-2019, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post
Plenty of amp choices, the dsp version can certainly be useful.

Search for the VBSS thread(s) in this forum. All the guidance you'd need for ensure size and porting. 20 cu ft is perfect, might even allow a touch lower tuning. The VBSS design isn't really meant for the single digit Hz output realm so if that's something you want to chase spend a little more time researching options. What the VBSS would give you nearfield is tremendous output for very modest cost and with the close nearfield placement and a little larger than typical enclosure may even be able to nudge response down low enough to not go chasing any further.
Thanks big, I'll give that thread a (long) read

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post #27 of 46 Old 12-02-2019, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
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Ok I won't be able to fit 2 more amps in my AV cabinet. Gonna have to put them behind the sofa. What cables do I need to pull for the 3000D and 6000D? Just 1 subwoofer cable and put a Y adapter to split to the 2 amps? My AVR is a Marantz sr7013. I can bring a 20A circuit to the area.

Dumb question...how do I turn on the amps remotely?

Thanks for walking me through this. It's much appreciated!

I use notnyt's 12 volt DIY power relay switch. It works great!
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...de-w-pics.html


Also


Northern Sound and Light has a $50 off $500 coupon today for members. Cost $1 to become a member and see member pricing (It's MUCH cheaper than MSRP - which is all you see without becoming a member). Being that their prices are almost always the lowest you can find - it's a good time to buy your Behringer NX .... D amps.
https://www.northernsoundandlight.com/Home

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(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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post #28 of 46 Old 12-02-2019, 07:05 PM
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Definitely recommend a BOSS mini riser setup for tactile bass. I used to have NF subs right behind me but got Tinnitus so got rid of them completely and happy with running BOSS only plus far field subs. I did love the sound and feel of NF subs but the SPL levels that close to my ears proved to be a bad match.
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post #29 of 46 Old 12-02-2019, 10:40 PM
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Thanks for the input Nate &#x1f44d;

I'll start with the BOSS first as it's cheap to do. Will likely do NF as well after. I don't need crazy bass (it's my livingroom after all). Do you think two 18-22's powered by the 6000D is suitable ( balanced) for my system?
Oh ya, make them ported and you will have good output. Having both will be ideal!
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post #30 of 46 Old 12-03-2019, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


I use notnyt's 12 volt DIY power relay switch. It works great!
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...de-w-pics.html


Also


Northern Sound and Light has a $50 off $500 coupon today for members. Cost $1 to become a member and see member pricing (It's MUCH cheaper than MSRP - which is all you see without becoming a member). Being that their prices are almost always the lowest you can find - it's a good time to buy your Behringer NX .... D amps.
https://www.northernsoundandlight.com/Home
That DIY power relay looks promising. Is there a way to bypass it though? I don't need NF or BOSS when listening to music.

Thanks for the link to NSL. I signed up but still waiting for a response from them.

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