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post #1 of 31 Old 12-02-2019, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Clone 4722

I continue on this transformation of my system from audiophile to pro.

I picked up 3 jbl3677, which is my first exposure to JBL. Liked what they did so got another three.

Then picked up some 2242’s and made 3 jbl 4645c’s.

Next step is to clone some 4722´s. I will start with LR, and if I like them will then add the center. I have 4 2226h’s going into 4508 cabinets made by my local cabinetmaker. I also picked up 2 x 2384, 2 x 2452hsl, and 2 Be diaphragms. I have been buying crown amps: xti 6002 and 1002, dci 2/600, and dci 2/300. I also have an emotive xpa5. The xti 6002 is running the 4645c’s. Processor is Marantz 8802. Music is just as important as movies.

Seems straightforward about combining the 2384, 2452, and the 2226’s, but I have no idea about the easier/best way to make this active, amps, crossovers, dsps, etc. Any recommendations on using the amps I have and in combination with what? Or buying hypex plate amps, or some other solution. I don’t know anything about filters or slopes or any other technical stuff.

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post #2 of 31 Old 12-02-2019, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are some photos.
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post #3 of 31 Old 12-03-2019, 03:13 AM
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Always great to see another bloke make the jump to pro gear. Looks like you've got right into it there mate! No center channel?
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post #4 of 31 Old 12-03-2019, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Always great to see another bloke make the jump to pro gear. Looks like you've got right into it there mate! No center channel?
Will wait on the center channel until I'm sure about whether I like the front pair. No way to listen to this stuff before buying.
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post #5 of 31 Old 12-03-2019, 11:14 AM
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What did you use on your ceiling?

Theater: JVC RS540U, 2.35:1 142" screen, Onkyo RZ1100, Panasonic UB820, Outlaw Audio M2200 Monoblock x3, Klipsch RF7II, RC64II, RS62II, 5800CII x4 Atmos, PSA V3611 Subwoofer x2.
2 Channel: Parasound P6, Parasound A23+, Rega Planar 6 with Ortofon 2M Bronze, Klispch La Scala II, Behringer NX6000D, B&C 21DS115-4 powered Devastator V1 x2.
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post #6 of 31 Old 12-03-2019, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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What did you use on your ceiling?
Before I had B&W 800 series speakers all around, up and down.

Now for rear heights I will either use the extra pair of 3677's currently in use up front or put them as front sides and use scs8's and maybe a pair of Control 328's.
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post #7 of 31 Old 12-03-2019, 07:58 PM
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You're in for a rough time if you don't know how to measure and build filters.

The hypex fa253 would be a solid choice for these, but you have some amps with built in dsp that can probably get the job done as well. I use a 3636 autoformer to pad 12db, a 100uf cap for protection, and a 1/2in spacer to better mate the CD to the waveguide.

This is what the HF section eq looks like on my setup. Blue is amplitude and red is phase. This has room eq and a target curve baked in.



Final output

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post #8 of 31 Old 12-03-2019, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply, notnyt! I know nothing. New world for me.

The DCI ser not the N version, so don’t believe dsp is an option. Think I would need a minidsp or DBX 360 or something. The hypex are certainly an option.

Do you have pictures of what the 3636 autoformer to pad 12db, a 100uf cap for protection, looks like?

Or am I better off just getting the 4722 crossover?
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post #9 of 31 Old 12-03-2019, 08:27 PM
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Thanks for the reply, notnyt! I know nothing. New world for me.

The DCI ser not the N version, so don’t believe dsp is an option. Think I would need a minidsp or DBX 360 or something. The hypex are certainly an option.

Do you have pictures of what the 3636 autoformer to pad 12db, a 100uf cap for protection, looks like?

Or am I better off just getting the 4722 crossover?
4722N crossover will not work. It's made for a 2432H. It will work ok with the 2452h-sl, but once you put in the Be diaphragm, the response changes completely.

The link in my sig for 15in 2-way shows the parts.

You're in a bit over your head here it seems. You can't just slap components together and expect them to sound good. You would likely have been better off just getting some 4722Ns and replacing the CD with 2453H-SL for simplicity's sake.
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post #10 of 31 Old 12-03-2019, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I was hoping you wouldn’t say that. I guess I got the adventure I wanted. Should be fun.

As for mini dsp or a DBX with my DCI’s, would that be a better option than the hypex?


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4722N crossover will not work. It's made for a 2432H. It will work ok with the 2452h-sl, but once you put in the Be diaphragm, the response changes completely.

The link in my sig for 15in 2-way shows the parts.

You're in a bit over your head here it seems. You can't just slap components together and expect them to sound good. You would likely have been better off just getting some 4722Ns and replacing the CD with 2453H-SL for simplicity's sake.
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post #11 of 31 Old 12-03-2019, 08:44 PM
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Well, I was hoping you wouldn’t say that. I guess I got the adventure I wanted. Should be fun.

As for mini dsp or a DBX with my DCI’s, would that be a better option than the hypex?
The hypex amps are better imo. An FA253 would do the job, but if you already have the hardware, a minidsp is sure cheaper. Granted, any of the balanced minidsps they have aren't so great with the noise floor. I have no first hand experience with the dbx. That said, the hypex software is kind of klunky and not beginner friendly at all. Supposedly they're coming out with a new HFD (hypex filter designer) but I don't know when.
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post #12 of 31 Old 12-03-2019, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Much appreciated. Let’s see where I get to.
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post #13 of 31 Old 12-04-2019, 01:56 PM
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You could use three Crown DSi amps. They have the pre-configured settings for the 4722.
https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/dsi-1000
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post #14 of 31 Old 12-04-2019, 03:34 PM
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You could use three Crown DSi amps. They have the pre-configured settings for the 4722.
https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/dsi-1000
He has different woofers and CDs than the 4722, so that probably won't work.

Building the room, speakers, and subs.
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post #15 of 31 Old 12-04-2019, 04:04 PM
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He has different woofers and CDs than the 4722, so that probably won't work.
This. It definitely won't work. It could be used as a starting point, but he'd still be in the same boat of not knowing how to take measurements or build filters.
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post #16 of 31 Old 12-04-2019, 04:05 PM
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He has different woofers and CDs than the 4722, so that probably won't work.
Get the JBL midhorn and build a 3731 or 5732. I'm running some 4722n's but have always wanted to try a 3 way JBL.

I have a some spare JBL parts (2226, 2384, 2453 and 2169) and have though about getting the 3730 midhorn to build a 3 way. Could I use the settings from the 5732 but with one mid (2169) and one woofer (2226) instead of two?
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I have a friend wh I is pretty good taking measurements and uses REW. But still need help on filters. So, thinking just to go for two hypex 503’s. Would I still need the 3636 & 100uf?

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This. It definitely won't work. It could be used as a starting point, but he'd still be in the same boat of not knowing how to take measurements or build filters.
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post #18 of 31 Old 12-04-2019, 04:50 PM
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I have a friend wh I is pretty good taking measurements and uses REW. But still need help on filters. So, thinking just to go for two hypex 503’s. Would I still need the 3636 & 100uf?
I don't recommend the 503s. The 253 gives you 500w to the lf section when run bridged and 100w for the CD.

yes, you'd still need the extra components.
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post #19 of 31 Old 12-04-2019, 04:50 PM
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Get the JBL midhorn and build a 3731 or 5732. I'm running some 4722n's but have always wanted to try a 3 way JBL.

I have a some spare JBL parts (2226, 2384, 2453 and 2169) and have though about getting the 3730 midhorn to build a 3 way. Could I use the settings from the 5732 but with one mid (2169) and one woofer (2226) instead of two?
Unless you're like 20+ feet away, this is bad advice. The 2452 and 2453 can easily cover down to 600hz, and almost all of JBLs 15s are clean at that point.
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post #20 of 31 Old 12-04-2019, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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So you don’t think the 2x2226 could use the extra power of the 503.

I have a friend who uses TC Electronic for filters. Would that work?

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Quote:
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I have a friend wh I is pretty good taking measurements and uses REW. But still need help on filters. So, thinking just to go for two hypex 503’️s. Would I still need the 3636 & 100uf?
I don't recommend the 503s. The 253 gives you 500w to the lf section when run bridged and 100w for the CD.

yes, you'd still need the extra components.
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post #21 of 31 Old 12-04-2019, 05:14 PM
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So you don’t think the 2x2226 could use the extra power of the 503.

I have a friend who uses TC Electronic for filters. Would that work?
Re the FA503... Would it work? Yes. Is it necessary? No. They have fans in them and I have seen QC issues with the FA503s, hence why I recommended the FA253.

Putting 500w to a pair of these 15s gets very loud. You're around 101-102dbspl with 1 watt, so you can do the math there. It's a maximum 3db difference between the amps. You'll run into power compression anyway stepping up to 1kw with the 503.

TC Electronics is a brand, so I have no idea what you're referring to. The filters are configured in Hypex Filter Designer if using the Hypex plate amps, or audio architect for the Crown stuff.
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Unless you're like 20+ feet away, this is bad advice. The 2452 and 2453 can easily cover down to 600hz, and almost all of JBLs 15s are clean at that point.
I don't believe the 3731 requires 20' but the 5732 may. If I recall correctly someone at JBL pro mentioned 10' for the 3731 was sufficient. A single woofer/mid 3way using the 2384, 3730 midhorn could be built at the same speaker height as the 4722 and the 15 would only need to go up to ~300hz.
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post #23 of 31 Old 12-04-2019, 05:29 PM
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I don't believe the 3731 requires 20' but the 5732 may. If I recall correctly someone at JBL pro mentioned 10' for the 3731 was sufficient. A single woofer/mid 3way using the 2384, 3730 midhorn could be built at the same speaker height as the 4722 and the 15 would only need to go up to ~300hz.
I don't think it's necessary. You increase the center-center spacing, as you move off axis in the vertical domain you will have nulls around each xover point.

Most JBL 15s can play clean well above 1khz. In my setup they're over 30db down at 1khz when xover'd at 650hz, which matches directivity nicely. I'd take the increased sensitivity and power handling of the dual 15s. The stacked 15s also provide you with narrower dispersion in the vertical domain which better matches the waveguide.

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post #24 of 31 Old 12-04-2019, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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OK. They use TC Electronic X024 in their active system. I think I will go with the DBX 360 that way I can use the crown amps I already have, unless someone tells me that doesn’t make sense.


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Quote:
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So you don’️t think the 2x2226 could use the extra power of the 503.

I have a friend who uses TC Electronic for filters. Would that work?
Re the FA503... Would it work? Yes. Is it necessary? No. They have fans in them and I have seen QC issues with the FA503s, hence why I recommended the FA253.

Putting 500w to a pair of these 15s gets very loud. You're around 101-102dbspl with 1 watt, so you can do the math there. It's a maximum 3db difference between the amps. You'll run into power compression anyway stepping up to 1kw with the 503.

TC Electronics is a brand, so I have no idea what you're referring to. The filters are configured in Hypex Filter Designer if using the Hypex plate amps, or audio architect for the Crown stuff.
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post #25 of 31 Old 12-05-2019, 08:37 AM
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I don't think it's necessary. You increase the center-center spacing, as you move off axis in the vertical domain you will have nulls around each xover point.

Most JBL 15s can play clean well above 1khz. In my setup they're over 30db down at 1khz when xover'd at 650hz, which matches directivity nicely. I'd take the increased sensitivity and power handling of the dual 15s. The stacked 15s also provide you with narrower dispersion in the vertical domain which better matches the waveguide.

I can't argue with this...I've been enjoying the 4722s for several years with the upgraded CD you recommended (2453SL) and have no zero complaints. I have the passive model but my next step may be to try active with some DCI amps I have where I can load the speaker settings.
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This. It definitely won't work. It could be used as a starting point, but he'd still be in the same boat of not knowing how to take measurements or build filters.
Rob, James, I definitely respect your guy's thoughts, but I think in this case you are splitting hairs. I have the 2226 woofers and the 2435 Be CD's with the DSi amps (in my 4622's). Maybe it ain't perfect but I had Chad B do the calibration last year and he commented that he did very few adjustments to the 4622 presets. In this case it's close enough. It's not critical music mastering.
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I can't argue with this...I've been enjoying the 4722s for several years with the upgraded CD you recommended (2453SL) and have no zero complaints. I have the passive model but my next step may be to try active with some DCI amps I have where I can load the speaker settings.
Do it! The best mod I made was putting them in a well built baffle wall. Going active was second.
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post #28 of 31 Old 12-05-2019, 05:49 PM
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Rob, James, I definitely respect your guy's thoughts, but I think in this case you are splitting hairs. I have the 2226 woofers and the 2435 Be CD's with the DSi amps (in my 4622's). Maybe it ain't perfect but I had Chad B do the calibration last year and he commented that he did very few adjustments to the 4622 presets. In this case it's close enough. It's not critical music mastering.
I'm not splitting hairs here. The response is completely different between the CDs in question. It's blatantly obvious as soon as you start taking measurements of any of them.

It's not like I have first hand experience with any of this.....


This is what a 2452H with a Be CD on the 2384 waveguide with and without the 4722 crossover looks like. It's rubbish.





Here's the 2435HPL (Be) and the 2431H (Al) with the 4722 crossover and 2384 waveguide... again, horrible.





This is the 2452H-SL on the 2384 waveguide and the 4722 xover. This works very well (and better once you add a 1/2in spacer, this fixes the issue around 12khz)


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post #29 of 31 Old 12-05-2019, 06:57 PM
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Rob
You are being blatantly pejorative. Those measurements came from the CD's I sent you (2435 and 2431). At the time, I told you they were very used and abused bought from ebay. So your measurements and conclusion, in this regard, simply aren't valid.

My bottom line after being here for 15 plus years is, it's just nuance...not really audible.
Don't let the search for perfection get in the way of greatness!

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post #30 of 31 Old 12-05-2019, 08:49 PM
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Do it! The best mod I made was putting them in a well built baffle wall. Going active was second.
Trust me, I have looked into a baffle wall and studied how to design one. I had forgotten about the baffle wall but am now thinking about it again thanks to this post! The 4722s already sound amazing to me which is why I haven't really been in a hurry to connect amps and build a baffle wall.
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