Double full marty 18-22 low sound? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 45 Old 12-05-2019, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Double full marty 18-22 low sound?

Hi.

First post at the forum, but I`ll try to describe the problem.

I have recently bought and built 2 full martys with Dayton audio UM18-22 18".
They are connected in 4 ohm to a Behringer NX6000D that I allso just bought. Behringer is bragging of 3200W pr channel in 4ohm, I guess I`m getting about 3-400W out of it (wild guess from volume on subwoofers).
From before I have 4x Klipsch RF115SW subwoofers.

Since I`ve read so many extremely positive things about the UM18-22 18, full marty and behringer combo, I wanted that to be the first part of my home built cinema.

I now have klipsche RF7II connected to 2 Crown XTI2002`s bridged, and full atmos klipsch set connected to a Onkyo 3030.

The problem is that the Behringer hits the limiter without producing much sound, the 4x klipsch subs play a LOT louder than the UM18-22 18, and they are "only" 600W pr sub...
Allso, when I go to the sound setting on my reciever and choose sub 1 or 2, the klipsch subs are a lot louder than the martys (RF115SW are set to half volume on subs, 0 gain on onkyo), but the behringer clips on signal in to the amp as well as the power out.

Hope there is anyone out there that can give me any advice on how to make the UM18-22 18 play as loud as people say they do?

Btw, the room is big, about 1100 sq ft.

Any advice/tips are greatly appreciated
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post #2 of 45 Old 12-05-2019, 02:42 PM
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What filters do you have setup on the NX DSP? Also, are the cones moving a lot or not at all on the UMs? Did you check the limiter setting on the amps DSP? What is the position of the input sensitivity knobs on the front?
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post #3 of 45 Old 12-05-2019, 04:17 PM
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Did you turn off the auto correction from the previous set up?
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post #4 of 45 Old 12-05-2019, 06:06 PM
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The Crown XTI's are a horrible amplifier.

That said, 4 UM-18's should be about 50% louder than 4 Klipsch 15's, although I haven't modeled it.
Comparing 4 cones vs 2 isn't exactly fair, that's like a 28% reduction in total-cone-area.
Total-cone-area being one of the most important figures when it comes to generating good bass...


Can you take a screenshot of the 6kDSP clipping the outputs with the limiters set to off (or the highest available wattage)?
-10db is 1/10th power and -3db is half power...


Also, do you own an SPL meter or CSL UMIK-1 to confirm the SPL and FR?
It is possible that you are sitting in a room null with the new subs.

I've heard 4 Full Marty's with 2 6kDSP's before, it can easily shake doors in their frames from 30ft away under the right circumstances.
Is it the loudest bass I've ever heard? Well, No... The loudest bass I've heard is my own system.
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post #5 of 45 Old 12-05-2019, 09:04 PM
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The Crown XTI's are a horrible amplifier.
Out of (morbid) curiosity, what makes you say that?
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post #6 of 45 Old 12-05-2019, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Rasmussen View Post
Hi.

First post at the forum, but I`ll try to describe the problem.

I have recently bought and built 2 full martys with Dayton audio UM18-22 18".
They are connected in 4 ohm to a Behringer NX6000D that I allso just bought. Behringer is bragging of 3200W pr channel in 4ohm, I guess I`m getting about 3-400W out of it (wild guess from volume on subwoofers).
From before I have 4x Klipsch RF115SW subwoofers.

Since I`ve read so many extremely positive things about the UM18-22 18, full marty and behringer combo, I wanted that to be the first part of my home built cinema.

I now have klipsche RF7II connected to 2 Crown XTI2002`s bridged, and full atmos klipsch set connected to a Onkyo 3030.

The problem is that the Behringer hits the limiter without producing much sound, the 4x klipsch subs play a LOT louder than the UM18-22 18, and they are "only" 600W pr sub...
Allso, when I go to the sound setting on my reciever and choose sub 1 or 2, the klipsch subs are a lot louder than the martys (RF115SW are set to half volume on subs, 0 gain on onkyo), but the behringer clips on signal in to the amp as well as the power out.

Hope there is anyone out there that can give me any advice on how to make the UM18-22 18 play as loud as people say they do?

Btw, the room is big, about 1100 sq ft.

Any advice/tips are greatly appreciated

Check your subwoofer setting, and re-run Audyssey. From the Quick Start Guide:

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The speakers cannot be adjusted if they have been set to "No" or "None" in "Speaker Configuration". r "Subwoofer 2 Level" cannot be adjusted if "Subwoofer" have been set to "1ch" in "Speaker Configuration".







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post #7 of 45 Old 12-06-2019, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Popovich View Post
Out of (morbid) curiosity, what makes you say that?
I bought two 4k's and both of them exhibited problems after 3-8 years of use, and then eventually smoked.
The FP clones and iTech that I bought at the same time, are still functioning to this day.
I threw them in the garbage. Even if they were still perfect, they were never powerful, comparatively.
The <6k's are Class A/B hybrid, the 6k is pure Class D, it's a different animal.

inukes, powersoft, itech and speakerpower are also Class D.
The FP's are a Class-D A/B hybrid design, but well implemented, unlike the XTI's...

I replaced 2 bridged XTI 4k's and 2 bridged EP 4k's with a single XBS FP20k, and not only did I save 6RU but I gained like 2x more power at the same time and double the efficiency.

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post #8 of 45 Old 12-06-2019, 07:28 AM
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@Richard Rasmussen ...you've got a lot of subs and that they are different can complicate things. One thing to look for that could be happening is a phase issue. I currently have a gaggle of subs,too. Two are JBL, two are Klipsch...and I had a similar problem, and the fix was to swap the phase on one sub. Voila...proper bass. Perhaps you can swap one of the Marty subs in the 6000D to test? Or if easier, try swapping the phase on all the Klipsch subs. Of course, it's possible that there is a combination of phase issues since they cannot all sit in the same spot in your room. That could be time consuming to work through, but it might be a factor.

Another possibility, as someone mentioned, is that the position of the Marty subs is exciting other modes and nulls at your listening area. Tough to tell without RTA.

Another factor could be the Onkyo room correction utility. I don't know this one since they abandoned Audyssey.

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post #9 of 45 Old 12-06-2019, 07:33 AM
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Have you tried placing the um18’s where the 4 klipsch subs are?? Placement is another huge factor. Also the check the limiter on the inuke, like someone else mention.
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post #10 of 45 Old 12-06-2019, 11:24 AM
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Plot twist: He's confusing the -24dB light and the clip light.
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post #11 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 06:07 AM
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"...but the behringer clips on signal in to the amp as well as the power out."

how are you checking this?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #12 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
What filters do you have setup on the NX DSP? Also, are the cones moving a lot or not at all on the UMs? Did you check the limiter setting on the amps DSP? What is the position of the input sensitivity knobs on the front?
What filters do you have setup on the NX DSP? Also, are the cones moving a lot or not at all on the UMs? Did you check the limiter setting on the amps DSP? What is the position of the input sensitivity knobs on the front?

Filters are set to Buttersworth
The cones are moving somewhat, but less than the SW115, and way less than what I`ve seen on online vids.
The limiter settings are set to 3200W, so No limiter. (Hold and release is set to 50 and 100)
Load is set to 4 ohm.
The input sensitivity is set to about half, that`s the highest it can go now before the clipping and limiter cuts in. Making very little sound.
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post #13 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
What filters do you have setup on the NX DSP? Also, are the cones moving a lot or not at all on the UMs? Did you check the limiter setting on the amps DSP? What is the position of the input sensitivity knobs on the front?
What filters do you have setup on the NX DSP? Also, are the cones moving a lot or not at all on the UMs? Did you check the limiter setting on the amps DSP? What is the position of the input sensitivity knobs on the front?

Filters are set to Buttersworth
The cones are moving somewhat, but less than the SW115, and way less than what I`ve seen on online vids.
The limiter settings are set to 3200W, so No limiter. (Hold and release is set to 50 and 100)
Load is set to 4 ohm.
The input sensitivity is set to about half, that`s the highest it can go now before the clipping and limiter cuts in. Making very little sound.
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post #14 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Did you turn off the auto correction from the previous set up?
I dont know what that means, sorry.
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post #15 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
The Crown XTI's are a horrible amplifier.

That said, 4 UM-18's should be about 50% louder than 4 Klipsch 15's, although I haven't modeled it.
Comparing 4 cones vs 2 isn't exactly fair, that's like a 28% reduction in total-cone-area.
Total-cone-area being one of the most important figures when it comes to generating good bass...


Can you take a screenshot of the 6kDSP clipping the outputs with the limiters set to off (or the highest available wattage)?
-10db is 1/10th power and -3db is half power...


Also, do you own an SPL meter or CSL UMIK-1 to confirm the SPL and FR?
It is possible that you are sitting in a room null with the new subs.

I've heard 4 Full Marty's with 2 6kDSP's before, it can easily shake doors in their frames from 30ft away under the right circumstances.
Is it the loudest bass I've ever heard? Well, No... The loudest bass I've heard is my own system.
The crown`s are what I`m actually most happy with in the entire stereo :P I`m considering trying them on the subs to see if that would help.

Well, one thing is cone area, another is power. The SW115`s have port noise if I turn them too high (known problem), so they are only set to about half power of about 600W i think.

Screenshotting when the limiter bounces up and down like crazy and hitting the timing when it clips? Is it possible to make a screenshot vid or something? That would maybe be more helpful?


Also, do you own an SPL meter or CSL UMIK-1 to confirm the SPL and FR?
It is possible that you are sitting in a room null with the new subs.

I`ve tried listening in the entire room, and the UM18-22 are on low power.

These subs wont shake a silk cloth 1m from the subs, no worries about door hinges yet :P
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post #16 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
Check your subwoofer setting, and re-run Audyssey. From the Quick Start Guide:










Attachment 2650068

Attachment 2650070
It`s set to 2 subwoofers, I had the old SW115`s on all four sw outputs on the amp before.
Tried running just the new Daytons, and not the SW115`s first, it makes very little base.

Have not tried audyssey, I have used a DB measurer and set each speaker volume to the right DB at my listening position, is that wrong?
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post #17 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post
@Richard Rasmussen ...you've got a lot of subs and that they are different can complicate things. One thing to look for that could be happening is a phase issue. I currently have a gaggle of subs,too. Two are JBL, two are Klipsch...and I had a similar problem, and the fix was to swap the phase on one sub. Voila...proper bass. Perhaps you can swap one of the Marty subs in the 6000D to test? Or if easier, try swapping the phase on all the Klipsch subs. Of course, it's possible that there is a combination of phase issues since they cannot all sit in the same spot in your room. That could be time consuming to work through, but it might be a factor.

Another possibility, as someone mentioned, is that the position of the Marty subs is exciting other modes and nulls at your listening area. Tough to tell without RTA.

Another factor could be the Onkyo room correction utility. I don't know this one since they abandoned Audyssey.
I`ve tried using only the Martys, that was my plan. Only re-used the SW115`s when the martys made so little sound. I`ve tried changing the phasing on the martys before I reconnected the SW115`s.

I`ll give the room calibration another go, but I read a few years ago that that should be set to Off in the settings and manually adjust gain on each speaker.
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post #18 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Plot twist: He's confusing the -24dB light and the clip light.
I wish
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post #19 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
"...but the behringer clips on signal in to the amp as well as the power out."

how are you checking this?
Both in the NX Edit and on the display on the amp it says Input on the left bar.
Both go to both clipping and "protect" (or equivilent) at the same time as the output does. I`ve adjusted the gain on the Onkyo so that it clips both simultaniously as I thought that would give the highest ammount of sound from the subs.
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post #20 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Brad07z06 View Post
Have you tried placing the um18’s where the 4 klipsch subs are?? Placement is another huge factor. Also the check the limiter on the inuke, like someone else mention.
I have not, they would stand about 3ft up into the canvas and would not look good. I`ve heard that subs gain up to 3DB if they are in a corner and not in the middle of the wall?
Like I`ve written aerlier, I`ve tried walking around in the room. It`s not a nulling problem.
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post #21 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 08:16 AM
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the nx amps are reversed phase by nature. try changing the phase to 180 on the amp.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #22 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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the nx amps are reversed phase by nature. try changing the phase to 180 on the amp.
I`ve tried that too, didnt help

Thnx for the tip though
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post #23 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Rasmussen View Post
Hi.

I have recently bought and built 2 full martys with Dayton audio UM18-22 18".
They are connected in 4 ohm to a Behringer NX6000D that I allso just bought.
Have you tested across the speaker terminals with an ohmmeter and confirm they're roughly a 4 ohm load?

Any chance you wired the 2 voice coils out of phase?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Rasmussen View Post
Btw, the room is big, about 1100 sq ft.
The room in the picture doesn't look anywhere near that size, are you sure that number is accurate? If it is, you don't have enough subwoofers. (then again, who does?)
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post #24 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Have you tested across the speaker terminals with an ohmmeter and confirm they're roughly a 4 ohm load?

Any chance you wired the 2 voice coils out of phase?



The room in the picture doesn't look anywhere near that size, are you sure that number is accurate? If it is, you don't have enough subwoofers. (then again, who does?)
I havent checked that load on the speakers, but how could I wire the voice coils out of phase?
They are connected to 4 ohm as:

One Dual Voice Coil Speaker in Series

Connecting the two voice coils of the driver in series (+ to -) will result in the following impedances:

Dual–8 Ohm Subwoofer: 16 Ohms
Dual-6 Ohm Subwoofer: 12 Ohms
Dual–4 Ohm Subwoofer: 8 Ohms
Dual–2 Ohm Subwoofer: 4 Ohms
Dual–1.5 Ohm Subwoofer: 3 Ohms

The room is big, there is a big bar, pool table and dance floor behind the camera
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Originally Posted by Richard Rasmussen View Post
I havent checked that load on the speakers, but how could I wire the voice coils out of phase?
They are connected to 4 ohm as:

One Dual Voice Coil Speaker in Series

Connecting the two voice coils of the driver in series (+ to -) will result in the following impedances:

Dual–8 Ohm Subwoofer: 16 Ohms
Dual-6 Ohm Subwoofer: 12 Ohms
Dual–4 Ohm Subwoofer: 8 Ohms
Dual–2 Ohm Subwoofer: 4 Ohms
Dual–1.5 Ohm Subwoofer: 3 Ohms
If you wired both the um18-22's black terminals together, or both the um18-22's red terminals together while wiring in series then they'd attempt to oppose eachother. That would result in very little sound, but still lots of heat.

The important bit is that the driver's coils are connected + to - as your quoted text says.

Quote:
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The room is big, there is a big bar, pool table and dance floor behind the camera
Impressive.
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post #26 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 11:06 AM
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I`ll give the room calibration another go, but I read a few years ago that that should be set to Off in the settings and manually adjust gain on each speaker.
If the room correction utility can correct for two subs independently, then their gain should be set to -75dBc slow before the calibration process. If only one sub can be corrected, the subs must be equidistant from the MLP/mic position, and both fed the LFE output. Then the calibration is run. After that run, final levels of all channels should be verified again at -75 using the AVR test tone and a meter/RTA. That is done with the correction EQ "on." It is probably at -75, but it's good to verify.

Try swapping the polarity of just one Marty sub, not both through DSP.
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post #27 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 11:33 AM
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The problem is that the Behringer hits the limiter without producing much sound
Welcome to AVS Richard,
A lot of solid advice so far.

I'm not sure, however my guess is the voice coils are out of polarity.(not making much sound)

Regardless, I'd start from the beginning anyway.
Check the VCs, then with just one sub utilize a source with an amp, and assure full stroke etc without any AVR management.

ie; (test tone) source>amp>sub

Then check the other Marty, and then check them together making sure they sum positively.

Then move on with your bass management and room dsp.
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post #28 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 01:13 PM
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@Richard Rasmussen Lots of great ideas here from some really smart people. A few more ideas while you’re troubleshooting ...

1. Are your um18-22’s wired like the attached pic?
2. What’s your sub trim in your avr (are you throttling your signal before it goes to your amp)?
3. Re-examine your nx software settings. For now, leave the PEQ and DEQ tabs alone, leave them flat. Under the configuration tab try bi-amp 1, peak limiter at 0 dBfs, and phase at 180. Under the filter/crossover tab set high pass 1 and high pass 3 to 17 hz, butterworth, 12 dB. Low pass 2 and low pass 4 should be off. Leave gain at zero. Don’t mess with other settings yet - any difference?
4. Rerun room correction software (don’t know what it did to the sub out you’re using for Marty’s now)
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SPEAKERS: 3 x DIYSG 1099's LCR; DIYSG HTM 6's and 8's surround; 4 x RSL C34E's atmos.
SUBS: 4 x UM18-22 Mini Marty's and 2 x 21DS114-4 Devastators
SIGNAL CHAIN: Denon X4400; Minidsp 2x4 HD; 2 x Jensen Iso Sub 2RX; 3 x NX6000d.

Last edited by lawdogx; 12-07-2019 at 08:57 PM.
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post #29 of 45 Old 12-07-2019, 04:16 PM
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If you haven't wired them incorrectly the drivers should be moving like crazy near clipping.

Here is an example of 6 UM-18's powered with a single inuke, and I'm not even sure if that person was near full power yet...

You should definitely record a video of the input/output levels and excursion, upload it to youtube and paste the url here.
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post #30 of 45 Old 12-09-2019, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
If you haven't wired them incorrectly the drivers should be moving like crazy near clipping.

Here is an example of 6 UM-18's powered with a single inuke, and I'm not even sure if that person was near full power yet...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wlqE6M88Vw

You should definitely record a video of the input/output levels and excursion, upload it to youtube and paste the url here.

https://youtu.be/E0uVL-YOL9c

Last edited by Richard Rasmussen; 12-09-2019 at 03:15 PM.
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Behringer , low sound , sub problems , um18-22 18

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