Recommendation for best ATMOS on ceiling, down firing atmos speaker from DIYSG - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 14 Old 01-02-2020, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Recommendation for best ATMOS on ceiling, down firing atmos speaker from DIYSG

Looking for recommendations for what would be best to use as atmos speakers from DIYSG. I've seen that the Volts off axis response isn't the greatest giving that it uses the paper cone as a wave guide. Would you recommend something like the Cobalt MTs paired with the HTM-12s for LCR and HT-8s as surrounds or would something from parts-express be better at atmos placement? The atmos speakers would be installed on the ceiling using something like the omni mount or the K&M version.
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post #2 of 14 Old 01-02-2020, 04:54 PM
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How many rows and how high is your ceiling?

I have HT-8s as surrounds and if I had the height I would use them as Atmos as well.
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post #3 of 14 Old 01-02-2020, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taylor101 View Post
How many rows and how high is your ceiling?

I have HT-8s as surrounds and if I had the height I would use them as Atmos as well.
Room is 22'8" x 15'7" x 9' w/ (2) rows of seats. Total is a 9.4.6 set up
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post #4 of 14 Old 01-15-2020, 12:32 PM
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I'm making a similar decision, and it sounds like you watched the same YouTube video that I did.

While I won't be replacing my other (non-Atmos) speakers immediately, I want to get/build Atmos speakers that will match my next speaker upgrade (which will build myself). So, I'm looking for which LCR speakers will timber match which surround and Atmos speakers. It's probably easy enough to use HT-8s all around, but what other speakers offer similar performance, and which combine well with different front-channel speakers?

So what I'm searching for is references on which DIY speakers are timber-matched.
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post #5 of 14 Old 01-15-2020, 01:45 PM
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Best bet is the Volt series. I would personally match cone size with your surrounds by going with the Volt 8. You can run them in-ceiling or grab the flatpacks to make construction a cinch. Angled flatpacks are available at DIYSG too so you wouldn't necessarily have to mess with an additional mount...
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post #6 of 14 Old 01-15-2020, 02:03 PM
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I am using Volt 10’s as my in ceiling atmos speakers.

I use Volt 8’s as surrounds.

I chose the 10’s as they perform the best free air/infinite baffle according to Erich. I have no backing boxes on mine and according to Audyssey, the crossover is set to 60hz (I changed them to 80hz).

Erich said the 8 can barely get down to 80hz with no box and the 6 doesn’t come close.
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post #7 of 14 Old 01-15-2020, 02:28 PM
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i have volt 10s as surround and volt 6 as atmos and i love them

Receiver : Pioneer Elite SC-95
Front Speakers: 3 DIYSG 1099's
Surround Speakers:2 DIYSG Volt 10's Atmos: 4 DIYSG Volt 6's
Subwoofers: Dual Eminence NSW 21's in Cyclops enclosures w/Inuke 6000
Nearfield: 4 B-52 SP-1804 18s w/Inuke 6000DSP
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post #8 of 14 Old 01-15-2020, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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In regards to the Volts, I just watched this youtube video that stated the off axis response of the Volt 10s is actually not that great so that is why I was asking if there was another speaker possibly something that has a 2 way separates design that would work better in this application. I do not know if linking the video here is allowed, but if you look up DIY Volt 10 speaker real review, you can see the video I am referencing from Home Theater Gurus
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post #9 of 14 Old 01-15-2020, 08:55 PM
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You said in the first post you will be hanging the atmos speakers from wall hangers. For me the easy choice is ht-8s all the way around, what better timber match than that and the box sizes are practically the same if not very similar. Even if you turn the ht on their sides for a smaller footprint they should be fine because you will be able to point them at the MLP.

BTW I have three htm-12s, ht-8s and volt10s for atmos. Before the ht-8s I had the volt10s in ported boxes in the rear, when I built the ht8s I compared all of them to the htm’s up front. The ht and htm are VERY similar and the volt only slightly different which made it an easy choice to put the ht8s as surrounds. The volts for me are an easy choice for atmos and not necessarily for the sound. The off axis sound is superb and because I’m using them as IB they make a super easy install and all without aiming required and they sound great anyways.
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post #10 of 14 Old 01-15-2020, 09:12 PM
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I used the Volt 10’s in ported boxes and JTR Growler subs to DJ a party at a huge rec center - probably 6k sq ft with 20ft high ceilings. So many people came up to me and said it was the best sound system they ever heard. I used room correction (Audyssey). I wonder if the guy doing that review is using any room correction and how that handles the on axis frequency response (and the off axis). I wonder if @Erich H has any graphs of the volt series and how they match up to what that guys tested. On the DIYSoundgroup webpage it specifically states the Volts have great off axis response. He also mentioned that he sells other speakers so that sets off a red flag for me.

I don’t disagree that down-firing atmos speakers are a compromise, but with my low ceilings in my game room I have no other choice.

I have used Volts for mains during times where I was upgrading and waiting for other speakers. They sounded great - I have always used Audyssey though. I bet if he played a few speakers blind folded he would not know the difference. I also bet he didn’t know they sounded like crap until he looked at the measurements......he never changed them out so that tells you something.

After watching his next video he talks about how the off axis spl is much lower, but he is also much farther away from the speaker, I think it invalidates his point. Of course moving farther away is going to lower spl - duh!!! His second row is probably even more off axis than he thinks because it is higher than the first row which affects the axis angle. He also says a 4 dB difference is 40% less volume - I am not sure that is correct. I think 3db is the threshold of being able to tell a difference in sound. This video is not specific to the volt, but any in ceiling down-firing speaker.

Edit - found on/off frequently graphs from Matt Grant the designer here. Not sure how this compares with the YouTube video.

http://www.hificircuit.com/community...438/#post-3984

Last edited by raynist; 01-15-2020 at 10:08 PM.
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post #11 of 14 Old 01-15-2020, 09:32 PM
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So the graph in the YouTube video ‘review’ is the same graph from @Matt Grant the designer. The YouTube guy didn’t do any on/off axis measurements on his own. He can tell they sound bad from the graph I guess? I wonder how he felt they sounded before looking at the graph? I would imagine the graph is with no room correction.

I would be willing to bet that good room correction would clean the on axis (and off?) up to be very linear. Up to you if that is good enough.

If you can fit them and angle them properly I would think the HTM is the better way to go.

Here is the youtube link for the volt 10 ‘review’


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post #12 of 14 Old 01-16-2020, 02:10 AM
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"Off axis" is incomplete. There's horizontal and vertical. The best thing about the Volts for Atmos is they're the same in all directions. The HTM's are better laterally but have much more narrow dispersion vertically. So depending upon where they're mounted, where they're pointed and how many rows you have, you may be better off with the Volts. If the seating area is small enough (number of rows for the fronts, for example) and you can aim them well, the HTM's may be better. If you may not be able to point them perfectly or want them mounted flush in the ceiling firing straight down, the Volts are a no-brainer.


FWIW, Dolby specs call for "a wide dispersion pattern (approximately 45 degrees from the acoustical reference axis over the audio band from 100 Hz to 10 kHz or wider)," for ceiling speakers firing straight down, which the Volt 10 passes easily. If you compare the Volt 10's chart to that of the JBL Control 328C (one of the higher rated down-firing ceiling speakers you'll find), it looks very similar, maybe even a bit better in this regard.


I do feel the HTM's are easily superior for the bed channels, where horizontal dispersion is so important.
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post #13 of 14 Old 01-17-2020, 12:31 PM
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There seems to be some ambiguity when it comes to speaker orientation. I don't know that I've seen the Dobly specs say anything other than "on-ceiling", which could mean a number of things. (However, I am not to be considered a knowledgeable source...)

A lot of people are using in-ceiling speakers with varying (or no) ability to tilt towards the seating position, and perhaps some are using speaker mounted on the ceiling firing directly down, while others are using speakers mounted on the ceiling but pointed at the listening position. I think the person making the linked video is in the on-ceiling, oriented on listening position camp, so his Atmos speakers are aimed in such a way that the horizontal dispersion is across the seating row, similar to the bed channels. Of course, multiple rows would introduce a vertical component, but still less of one than down-firing speakers contend with.
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post #14 of 14 Old 01-17-2020, 01:28 PM
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There is another option,

ARound 5 years ago, another Eminence CX10 build was going on but it used the giant 6 pound PSD2013 beast compression driver from Eminence. This allowed the crossover point to drop from 2 KHz down to around 1450 or 1,500 Hz. Since tens start beaming at around 1500 or 1600 Hz, they went with the beastly compression driver to tame that issue. There are two versions, an 8 ohm or 16 ohm but very interesting results. Post 228 shows the 8 ohm version in room (with room correction I'm assuming--theya re mounted on the rear walls)

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-design-8.html

Post 163 os wotj tje 16 ohm version--he did state that the dip at 5 KHz on axis was not as pronounced as when he took off axis measurements--not sure why that dip is there or how he screwed it up. The off axis measurements are both higher in SPL in that reagion and smoother--that gnerally won't happen so I would count the on axis dip there to be a measuring error. The designer of the 16 ohm version of CD uses a diffferent crossover than the 8 ohm version and he uses them as near field monitors. An interesting option and it includes off axis measurements

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-design-6.html

This year is my surrounds build, I left them for last. I am seriously thinking of going with the 16 ohm veriant in a sealed box for several reasons. What kind of idiot would use an 85 watt RMS titaniam compression driver made for stadiums in a surround speaker? THIS guy! Actually, I always wanted to play with coaxials and would try them out for outdoor parties fed with around 200 watts of PA amp to see how wide of dispersion they go. That way my wife can proclaim me the villiage idiot because those are "surround speakers". Actually, I don't think you could damage them with AVR power even without a suboofer because of the small sealed box protecting them from over excursion--be next to impossible hurting that monster compression driver also. The perfect "idiot proof" speaker? I dunno, maybe they would be the hot ticket for folks that live with people that like to turn it to 11 and rip off the knob. This way it can be positioned in any way--being coax it don't matter so even my idiot brother could not screw it up. Figure if my brother wants a short center, the CX10/PSD2013 would give him something 12 inches tall when using birch 1/2" ply heavily braced and no worries about "timbre matching" with the LCR and surrounds all being the same speaker.

I will start my build in about 2 months--even the villiage idiot does not do woodworking in freezing weather.

On a side note, I did ponder using HTM-8's but I know I don't have full control over their end location for the next 30 years so coax would seem to be the best option. Never know, they might be idiot proof and this idiot will find out! Good luck in your question for surrounds, the above is just another option to muddy the waters in your selection process. Enjoy!
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