Are horn subs "out of fashion"? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 72 Old 01-10-2020, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
^^^ What if you use a LPF on the sealed (and maybe also a different HPF on the MiniDevs if it helps) for integration and let the sealed subs handle <20Hz-30Hz or whatever integrates best while leaving their major strength, the low-end intact? While I haven't modeled that integration I'm confident there a combination that would work well. I think that's your path to adding something really compelling in combination with the MiniDevs.


This would be possible, except for the third pair of subs being built currently, Submax v3’s loaded with NSW6021’s.

Chris
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post #62 of 72 Old 01-10-2020, 07:35 PM
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Mini Devastator 18ds115. May have some port compression on the low end.


Submax NSW:


Chris
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post #63 of 72 Old 01-10-2020, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
You guys are making me question these things before I even hear them, so... model time.

Sealed, 8th order 10hz HPF for integration.

Optimized for xmax at 2500w, 7.8cf:


Current boxes, all ports plugged. 2000w due to cone excursion:


20hz tune, 18hz 2nd order HPF, under 20m/s port velocity:


16hz tune, 15hz 3rd order HPF, 30m/s port velocity:


11hz tune, 11hz 4th order HPF, 1000w, 30m/s port velocity:


All but the smaller sealed are options with the current boxes.
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From the input window go to tools, towards the bottom you can change the frequency range to 1 - 200Hz so the low tune graphs are easier to read

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post #64 of 72 Old 01-10-2020, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
From the input window go to tools, towards the bottom you can change the frequency range to 1 - 200Hz so the low tune graphs are easier to read


I looked for that multiple times without luck, thanks for the tip.

Chris
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post #65 of 72 Old 01-10-2020, 08:54 PM
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Updated graphs:

11hz tune, 1000w:


Sealed, 10hz HPF for integration:


Sealed, no HPF:


I still don’t see how the sealed is better. I can use EQ to limit down low instead of lowering power to maintain the higher frequency response.

Chris
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post #66 of 72 Old 01-10-2020, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
I still don’t see how the sealed is better. I can use EQ to limit down low instead of lowering power to maintain the higher frequency response.
With the HPF sealed won't look better than the 11Hz tune, but keep in mind that the ported model is not considering port compression which will be a major factor with your port size.

I still think getting rid of the HPF and putting a LPF on the sealed will be your best integration option. It looks like crossing at something around 15Hz might work well. The sealed should cover 10-15Hz just as well as the ported while also giving you more extension into the single-digits.

Maybe consider putting them VNF?

In any case, since the boxes are already built, it will be easy enough to test all of the different options including temporarily blocking the ports to test them sealed.

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post #67 of 72 Old 01-10-2020, 09:26 PM
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Are horn subs &quot;out of fashion&quot;?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
With the HPF sealed won't look better than the 11Hz tune, but keep in mind that the ported model is not considering port compression which will be a major factor with your port size.



I still think getting rid of the HPF and putting a LPF on the sealed will be your best integration option. It looks like crossing at something around 15Hz might work well. The sealed should cover 10-15Hz just as well as the ported while also giving you more extension into the single-digits.



Maybe consider putting them VNF?


Significant port compression at 30m/s?

Also, the ported still looks better without the HPF above 8.5hz, and my signal chain cuts at 7hz, not really worried about that low. See last post for unfiltered graph. Honestly, 10hz is probably already a crazy target.

VNF isn’t an option, they are semi NF by design. They are bookended on the second row of seating, firing forward.

Chris
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post #68 of 72 Old 01-11-2020, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Significant port compression at 30m/s?

Also, the ported still looks better without the HPF above 8.5hz, and my signal chain cuts at 7hz, not really worried about that low. See last post for unfiltered graph. Honestly, 10hz is probably already a crazy target.
Oh yeah, significant port compression well before 30 m/s. I think something like 3-4dB of compression at that point IIRC.

What is cutting your signal chain at 7Hz? Most signal chains these days have very minor roll-off in the single-digits.

If you want to just keep it simple and go with the ported at this point, I wouldn't worry about it and just go ahead. You're not leaving all that much on the table because really, your other subs are doing the heavy lifting and I think this pair will be largely just a drop in the bucket in the >15Hz+ range. That was a big part of my motivation in suggesting sealed, just because I feel like it's a way to squeeze out more extension in your system and gain something significant in an area where the other subs really won't touch, but whether single-digits are really worth chasing with subs in most rooms is a question that can be argued either way.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
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post #69 of 72 Old 01-11-2020, 08:57 AM
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Are horn subs &quot;out of fashion&quot;?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Oh yeah, significant port compression well before 30 m/s. I think something like 3-4dB of compression at that point IIRC.



What is cutting your signal chain at 7Hz? Most signal chains these days have very minor roll-off in the single-digits.



If you want to just keep it simple and go with the ported at this point, I wouldn't worry about it and just go ahead. You're not leaving all that much on the table because really, your other subs are doing the heavy lifting and I think this pair will be largely just a drop in the bucket in the >15Hz+ range. That was a big part of my motivation in suggesting sealed, just because I feel like it's a way to squeeze out more extension in your system and gain something significant in an area where the other subs really won't touch, but whether single-digits are really worth chasing with subs in most rooms is a question that can be argued either way.


I can give all options a shot. Not a big deal to cut two more chunks of foam for port plugs, I just won’t make them pretty unless I end up using them permanently. Reprogramming the dsp just takes a few minutes with the 4x10.

Not sure what cuts signal, assume AVR since dsp shows no input level. I don’t have nearly the displacement to do anything meaningful that low anyway.

Yeah, these drivers were originally intended for the submax’s, but didn’t physically fit. So I added them anyway in “small” enclosures.

Chris

Last edited by a77cj7; 01-11-2020 at 09:01 AM.
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post #70 of 72 Old 01-11-2020, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
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I do, I don't use EQ at all these days unless the inherent build needed it...


Sure looks like it does, >10 dB down at 30 Hz.



Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Ported looked way better than sealed at the dimensions.

Depends what you mean by looked, but I doubt your s/w shows the effects of port compression.
I have a natural house curve without EQ so I leave it alone.

Building the room, speakers, and subs.
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post #71 of 72 Old 01-16-2020, 07:37 AM
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Lol yeah close but not as bad. I do remember ltd02 saying it would need like 120 cubic ft in the v3 design

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Ooohh ... do tell, please. Curious at to what this modeled at and what kind of extension it has. I mean if a person were to have the room for such sort of a thing ...

I am already looking at eventually building some of the V3's with the 21's. I am going to be building a house in the somewhat near future so I just might have the capability to make the room for whatever I could cook up!
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post #72 of 72 Old 01-16-2020, 07:43 AM
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Ooohh ... do tell, please. Curious at to what this modeled at and what kind of extension it has. I mean if a person were to have the room for such sort of a thing ...



I am already looking at eventually building some of the V3's with the 21's. I am going to be building a house in the somewhat near future so I just might have the capability to make the room for whatever I could cook up!


The design was never fleshed out fully, because of the ridiculous size and no one was interested in building it. Talk to John @LTD02 , he can provide details, and may finish it up for you if you actually want to build them.

Another option is the devastator variant BMD Omega by @Red Five .

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post58939326

This design has not yet been built and measured.

Chris
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