Ground Loop noise issues- denon x4400/ inuke nx3000 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 95 Old 01-21-2020, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Ground Loop noise issues- denon x4400/ inuke nx3000

Hi all,

I'm having some ground loop noise issues. The denon and the inuke are both powered by the same power strip. As soon as the amp is plugged in (the inuke) I get a hum out of the speakers powered by the denon. Suggestions?

I was under the impression that the hum came from being on separate circuits so I definitely have some research to do.
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post #2 of 95 Old 01-21-2020, 07:33 PM
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Do you have a cable box input attached , co-ax, on the avr?

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post #3 of 95 Old 01-21-2020, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
Do you have a cable box input attached , co-ax, on the avr?
I have a directvbox connected via hdmi. We were watching tv (as the signal) as I was working on this setup.

Also, to clarify, even with the inuke plugged in, but not on, the hum starts.

edit...

just upgraded to directv 4k boxes (this is a wired box) recently although with a different sub amp connected, I didn't have the hum. I'll proabably run some tests tomorrow night. there are some decent articles that talk about testing and eliminating hum.

Last edited by rr14; 01-21-2020 at 08:33 PM.
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post #4 of 95 Old 01-21-2020, 09:39 PM
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I had the same problem with my avr-x2200w
Any time I plugged in a powered sub or any amp, on the same or a different circuit .
I would get the same hum sound though the speakers
The spectrum TV guy came out and waved a meter around my TV and found that my TV has no grounding circuit , so the noise is coming from my TV and this is what he hooked up to eliminated all the humming noise ,
anytime I plugged in any amp near my receiver and used it for either Sub or any of my speakers in my system I would get the noise in my audio system from the receiver not on what was plugged into the amplifier but just from the denon receiver
Look at these pics. Sorry about the dust
It’s a grounding block that plugs into the A/C outlet and then a coaxial cable goes from
The grounding block and then to any coaxial
Input of the TV
It really works. All these years of being in audio, it blows my mind that that’s all it took to remove all the noise



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post #5 of 95 Old 01-22-2020, 06:47 AM
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Basic detective work 101, just start unplugging stuff from the avr one at a time and listen for the effect on the hum. Direct tv cable is suspect #1 . Don’t overlook hdmi cables that could possibly connect to devices on other circuits. The fix will depend on the cause ...

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post #6 of 95 Old 01-22-2020, 06:53 AM
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Running a wire from the amp chassis to the Signal Gnd connector on the AVR made a huge difference for me.

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post #7 of 95 Old 01-22-2020, 09:38 AM
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I don’t think your understand what I was explaining
What the problem was, for me anyway. Is this

The TV and 99% of newer tv’s have no grounding system built into them
Find yourself a cheap rfi meter. Like a pen type one. And just wave it around the tv. Around the hole frame. It will start blinking and all that telling to that it’s picking up a emf, rfi from the tv
That’s electromagnetic interference
Random frequency interference, or something like that
It’s not the cable line, I’m just using that little grounding block that plugs into the wall outlet and then a cable going into the tv, and now the tv is grounded and no more rfi,emi interference or noise in the sound system basically the TV was acting like a big huge coil, Or magnet and creating all the noise in the system


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post #8 of 95 Old 01-22-2020, 10:22 AM
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I had a pretty bad ground loop hum with my inukes. Grounding the coax helped some. I eliminated the hum by grounding the chassis of the 2 inukes and the AVR to each other.

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post #9 of 95 Old 01-22-2020, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Running a wire from the amp chassis to the Signal Gnd connector on the AVR made a huge difference for me.
Came here just to say that; definitely will work for a ground problem due to a inuke/nx series amp.

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post #10 of 95 Old 01-22-2020, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Running a wire from the amp chassis to the Signal Gnd connector on the AVR made a huge difference for me.
Came here just to say that; definitely will work for a ground problem due to a inuke/nx series amp.
Sounds like something to try. Anywhere in particular that you are grounding on the inuke end?
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post #11 of 95 Old 01-22-2020, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rr14 View Post
Sounds like something to try. Anywhere in particular that you are grounding on the inuke end?
I used one of the fan screws to hold my ground wire.

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post #12 of 95 Old 01-22-2020, 12:50 PM
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I did the same (ground wire) and it worked. In my case, it was the TV. Disconnecting one at a time didn't work for me, as I had two connections going between the TV and AVR (HDMI and RCA) and didn't locate the problem until both were disconnected. Attach a long wire to the amp (fan screw is fine) and then touch the bare opposite end to your various components to find out which unit to connect.

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post #13 of 95 Old 01-22-2020, 01:04 PM
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My ground loops were caused by 2 things (on different AVRs):

1) Denon AVR-X2200 + nu3000dsp - Slight hum, grounding nu3k chassis to AVR chassis solved it

2) Marantz SR6013 + NX3000D (current setup) - Louder hum, grounding amp chassis to AVR chassis reduced it, adding a ground loop isolator to CATV line (this one) removed it completely from what I can tell.

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post #14 of 95 Old 01-22-2020, 03:47 PM
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Ground Loop noise issues- denon x4400/ inuke nx3000

I fought ground loops with every setup I have had. With an avr and inukes, the wire from the inuke chassis’s to the avr phono ground solves most of the issue. When I had 8 inukes, I had to run the rca lfe wire through a Jensen isolation transformer. That fixed it all. Until I got clone amps. Then the only thing that 100% solved the issue was upgrading to a fully balanced pre/pro. Then using all xlr cables, the ground within the cable can be lifted. Again that solved 100% of the issue. That’s with the pre/pro, and all 4 of my clone amps on there own separate circuits.
It can be frustrating, but you’ll get it.
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post #15 of 95 Old 01-25-2020, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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That did the trick! Thanks guys!!!
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post #16 of 95 Old 01-25-2020, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rr14 View Post
I was under the impression that the hum came from being on separate circuits so I definitely have some research to do.
No.

The hum is caused by 1 or more appliances injecting noise into their chassis or ground-reference, and then using that for the audio system.


Generally the hum is 60hz, caused by something leaking energy from the hot grid conductor to elsewhere in the circuit.

My guess is that it is actually the power transformers and filtering system in all of these devices that are causing this effect.
Poor shielding or poor DC rectification or stray capacitance/noise, with resulting ground leakage, would be my guess.

The problem is, systems only need to be certified for THEMSELVES, not in combination with OTHER equipment. They don't CARE if they are injecting noise into the audio stream.


(2020, no flying cars, but mspaint still useful! )

Putting a wire between the chassis doesn't fix the leakage, it just masks it.
It places the noise on all of the devices equally, that then becomes the new ground-reference.
If you ever add more gear, it will come back.
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post #17 of 95 Old 01-25-2020, 12:12 PM
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This is most often caused by using the wrong cable between the AVR and the amp when going from unbalanced to balanced. Pin 1 needs to be OPEN/LIFTED at the RCA end, otherwise you've just connected the signal ground in your avr directly to earth.
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post #18 of 95 Old 01-25-2020, 12:40 PM
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It's also often caused by noise riding on the coax tv ground, which connects to the AVR via metal HDMI or RCA.
Also notorious for USB or other serial-control cables connected from a computer to audio equipment.


Even though my system is 100% full XLR, whenever I connect both the HDMI and USB cables from my HTPC to my Marantz and Motu's (which are all connected together and connected to all the FP amps) I get a faint noise sputter in movie-mode.

I use Zone2 for switching between TV and projector, and the USB for Motu signal monitoring and Headphone audio.
Neither of which are required for movie-mode, but it is a pain having to unplug those every time.

I thought the HDMI cables I bought were pure-fiber but they aren't, they are stupid hybrid cables!
So instead, I'm gonna buy 1 or 2 optical USB cables and give that a try.
Failing that... I'd buy a real fiber HDMI cable, they really expensive though! Like $700 (before tax or shipping) for small form factor active end-pieces and like $500 for big ugly black boxes. UGH! There is just no winning.
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post #19 of 95 Old 01-25-2020, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
This is most often caused by using the wrong cable between the AVR and the amp when going from unbalanced to balanced. Pin 1 needs to be OPEN/LIFTED at the RCA end, otherwise you've just connected the signal ground in your avr directly to earth.
Was there a thread about this or a diagram (specifically with the monoprice cables)? Searching is failing for me...
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post #20 of 95 Old 01-25-2020, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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so the plot thickens...

connecting the wire between the two components did mask it. Things were looking good until the sun started going down today and when I turn on my can lights, the hum is back. Turn off the lights and it goes away.

What should I do or try next?

Lights on, denon and inuke on, but no sub rca out to the inuke = no hum

so it seems like it's the output of the avr to the inuke causing it.
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post #21 of 95 Old 01-25-2020, 05:24 PM
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Just adding another perspective here. I’ve had huge success with really basic medical grade TrippLite power strips. Galvanic isolation between outlets and elimination of nasty hum. I think I get 8 outlet surge protectors for like $45.

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post #22 of 95 Old 01-25-2020, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
Was there a thread about this or a diagram (specifically with the monoprice cables)? Searching is failing for me...
There's a post about this every few weeks, and every time I post the fix.

The monoprice cables are not correct. They connect shield to rca ground.

Start here for the read: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post58918630

This is how the cable SHOULD be made. Cut the RCA end off the cable, and splice a new end on properly. Shield should run the length of the cable and be connected at pin 1 on the XLR side only. Pin 2 on XLR is the RCA signal (center), and pin 3 is the RCA signal ground (outer).

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post #23 of 95 Old 01-25-2020, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rr14 View Post
so the plot thickens...

connecting the wire between the two components did mask it. Things were looking good until the sun started going down today and when I turn on my can lights, the hum is back. Turn off the lights and it goes away.

What should I do or try next?

Lights on, denon and inuke on, but no sub rca out to the inuke = no hum

so it seems like it's the output of the avr to the inuke causing it.
fix your signal cable. see above post.
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post #24 of 95 Old 01-25-2020, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
There's a post about this every few weeks, and every time I post the fix.

The monoprice cables are not correct. They connect shield to rca ground.

Start here for the read: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post58918630

This is how the cable SHOULD be made. Cut the RCA end off the cable, and splice a new end on properly. Shield should run the length of the cable and be connected at pin 1 on the XLR side only. Pin 2 on XLR is the RCA signal (center), and pin 3 is the RCA signal ground (outer).

Thanks. I think the cable Matters cable is correct... Cable Matters Unbalanced XLR to RCA Cable/Male to Male XLR RCA

The image they show matches what looks to be correct.

I have a buzz from an Unbalanced rca out to the Unbalanced rca in on the minidsp 8x8. Guess I should look in to the Phoenix connector with a connection to an Unbalanced rca to fix that issue. I've never seen that cable.
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post #25 of 95 Old 01-25-2020, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
Thanks. I think the cable Matters cable is correct... Cable Matters Unbalanced XLR to RCA Cable/Male to Male XLR RCA

The image they show matches what looks to be correct.

I have a buzz from an Unbalanced rca out to the Unbalanced rca in on the minidsp 8x8. Guess I should look in to the Phoenix connector with a connection to an Unbalanced rca to fix that issue. I've never seen that cable.
MiniDSP doesn't always do things right. Did you use their own in-a-box version or did you make one with their board and your own chassis/ps? You'd likely benefit from doing the pseudo balanced connection (unbalanced RCA to balanced Phoenix). Same way as my previous diagrams. Shield runs the length of the cable but is not connected to anything on the RCA side. RCA + (center) to pin 2(+) and RCA -/gnd (outside) to pin 3(-).


Cablematters definitely does not have the correct wiring.

This image from cablematters is the WRONG way to run unbalanced to balanced. Note that pin 1 is connected to pin 3, connecting the signal ground on RCA directly to earth. This is the same issue with the Monoprice cables.


Last edited by notnyt; 01-25-2020 at 06:02 PM.
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post #26 of 95 Old 01-25-2020, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
MiniDSP doesn't always do things right. Did you use their own in-a-box version or did you make one with their board and your own chassis/ps? You'd likely benefit from doing the pseudo balanced connection (unbalanced RCA to balanced Phoenix). Same way as my previous diagrams. Shield runs the length of the cable but is not connected to anything on the RCA side. RCA + (center) to pin 2(+) and RCA -/gnd (outside) to pin 3(-).


Cablematters definitely does not have the correct wiring.

This image from cablematters is the WRONG way to run unbalanced to balanced. Note that pin 1 is connected to pin 3, connecting the signal ground on RCA directly to earth.


Interesting. Guess I misinterpreted this image, or this image is wrong as well


I have the 8x8 in a box version from several years back. Would this set not help (assuming I fixed the existing cables and potentially got the female VS the male)? https://www.minidsp.com/products/acc...ale-set-detail
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post #27 of 95 Old 01-25-2020, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
Interesting. Guess I misinterpreted this image, or this image is wrong as well

I have the 8x8 in a box version from several years back. Would this set not help (assuming I fixed the existing cables and potentially got the female VS the male)? https://www.minidsp.com/products/acc...ale-set-detail
That image is wrong as well. It's basically the same, except one way connects the shield to ground at the rca end, and the other connects the shield to the ground at the xlr end. Neither of these is the way to do it.


The MiniDSP should have come with phoenix blocks. If you're connecting an RCA source to the MiniDSP, just get some kind of balanced cable from monoprice (trs, xlr, whatever), and some solder on RCA ends. cut the ends off the cable, wire one side to the phoenix blocks as indicated, and the other side solder up only the signal wires to the rca end, leaving the shield floating.

If you're running the output of the minidsp to balanced gear, you should be using the balanced outputs on the Phoenix block. You can use their adapters or just make your own as mentioned above. Just get the appropriate XLR cables from Monoprice and cut one end off and connect to the Phoenix blocks.
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post #28 of 95 Old 01-25-2020, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
That image is wrong as well. It's basically the same, except one way connects the shield to ground at the rca end, and the other connects the shield to the ground at the xlr end. Neither of these is the way to do it.


The MiniDSP should have come with phoenix blocks. If you're connecting an RCA source to the MiniDSP, just get some kind of balanced cable from monoprice (trs, xlr, whatever), and some solder on RCA ends. cut the ends off the cable, wire one side to the phoenix blocks as indicated, and the other side solder up only the signal wires to the rca end, leaving the shield floating.

If you're running the output of the minidsp to balanced gear, you should be using the balanced outputs on the Phoenix block. You can use their adapters or just make your own as mentioned above. Just get the appropriate XLR cables from Monoprice and cut one end off and connect to the Phoenix blocks.
Thanks! I've got a spare monoprice XLR-rca cable here.

Taking apart the XLR adapter, it looks like it does have red to pin 2, black to pin 1, and clear/white to pin 3. Should be easy enough to cut off the RCA end as you've mentioned and then float/not connect the clear/white wire to the new rca I'd add(assuming I've got it right at this point).
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post #29 of 95 Old 01-25-2020, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
Thanks! I've got a spare monoprice XLR-rca cable here.
Taking apart the XLR adapter, it looks like it does have red to pin 2, black to pin 1, and clear/white to pin 3. Should be easy enough to cut off the RCA end as you've mentioned and then float/not connect the clear/white wire to the new rca I'd add(assuming I've got it right at this point).
On the RCA side, ensure that there is no continuity between pin 1 and RCA ground (outside). If there is, cut off the RCA end and solder on a fresh one leaving the shield floating on the RCA side. Pin 2 should go to RCA signal (center) and pin 3 should go to RCA ground(outside).

Last edited by notnyt; 01-26-2020 at 01:24 PM.
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post #30 of 95 Old 01-25-2020, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
What the actual f.

Why is pin 1 connected to pin 2 there? That should not be. Snip that. Then on the RCA side, ensure pin 2 is connected to the RCA signal (inside), pin 3 is connected to rca ground (outside), and that there is no continuity between pin 1 and rca ground. If there is, cut off the RCA end and solder on a fresh one.


I was wrong. There is no separate black wire. Red insulated, white/clear insulated, plus shield wire and bare aluminum wire together.

Sorry if I'm being dense here... Just want to confirm. Connect red wire to rca T, and connect shield wire to rca S. Do not connect the white/clear wire to anything on rca end?
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